6 ms·

Time for us in Europe to man up.

k1kingy 2y ago
Thankfully it seems to be uniting the EU rather than dividing. Remains to be seen if they can get their act together though.
eunos 2y ago
[flagged]
- eitland 2y ago
  Better than having to cry in russian in 20 years. Also, according to Perun, if Europe collectively raises defense spending to somewhere near 4,5% (I think, check last Sundays episode) it will outspend not only US but US and China together.
  - eunos 2y ago
    Might as well adopt Songun.
    - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
      Heh, North Korea is involved! *eg. https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/09/europe/russia-advances-kursk-ukraine-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/09/europe/russia-advances-ku...
- TrackerFF 2y ago
  FWIW, all European countries combined spend 5x more on military expenditure, than Russia. And that's using old numbers, before Trump became POTUS.
  - bufferoverflow 2y ago
    Yet Russia has more brigades, more artillery and artillery shells, more nukes. The comment above is right. Europe needs to wake the hell up and increase military production 10X, even if temporarily. If Russians take Ukraine, they will force their population to attack the next country. Just like it happened with men of Donbass.
    - TrackerFF 2y ago
      lol Russia are barely making progress in Ukraine, and have effectively been in a stalemate since the 2022 invasion - while currently shipping back their wounded vets to the frontline on donkeys. Hadn't it been for Trump, Russia would effectively go bankrupt before being able to cross the Dnipro river. The only real capability Russia has, are their nuclear weapons and other long-range weapons - and even with the latter, they have been struggling. FWIW, I worked in the defense industry, and even before the invasion Russia has been viewed as a paper tiger. They're good at coming up with novel ideas and weaponry, but for whatever reason, struggle to successfully get things from the drawing board to operational weapons.
      - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
        s/are/were barely making progress. The ~20% [1] reduction [2] in total supplies to the ukraine front line lead to the logical prediction that frontline dynamics would be impacted. Early indicators suggest this prediction is materializing. [3]. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/International/ukraine-europe-react-shocking-trump-aid-freeze/story?id=119416808 https://abcnews.go.com/International/ukraine-europe-react-sh... Pre freeze: "Malcolm Chalmers, the deputy director-general of the Royal United Services Institute think tank in the U.K., told ABC News that recent estimates indicate the U.S. share of all military hardware sent to the front has fallen to around 20%, with 25% coming from Europe and 55% domestically produced in Ukraine." ; also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukrain... [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2025/03/04/us-weapons-shipments-ukraine-stopped-trump-order/81372499007/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2025/03/04/us-weapo... [3] https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/09/europe/russia-advances-kursk-ukraine-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/09/europe/russia-advances-ku...
throwaway_20357 2y ago
I'm sceptical. Recent movements in Germany point into the opposite direction or rather a continuation of wishful thinking. Yes, a lot of debt-funded defence investment is coming. They also promised some investment in "infrastructure". At the same time the debt increase will delay reforms that are overdue for 20 years and longer. There were already calls that, now, with all brakes off, we can increase rather than curb spending on the welfare state. As it currently looks, the productivity gap with the US and Asia will widen rather than shrink. A very disappointing development to say the least.
- bootsmann 2y ago
  European manufacturing is more productive than US manufacturing. The US productivity advantage comes almost entirely from the US' strong tech (as in software) sector.
  - kragen 2y ago
    Tech (as in software) is what's being cut off to Ukraine, and tech (as in software, MEMS gyros, and GNSS) is how Ukraine keeps blowing up US$3M T-90 tanks with three or four US$500 FPV drones. So I think it's highly relevant to the question of sovereignty.
    - lfsh 2y ago
      As far as I know all cheap drone tech is provided by China (to both Russia and Ukraine).
      - kragen 2y ago
        It's largely kind of an international open-source effort, but there is a lot of crucial hardware that is only available from China, yes. Until this week I think Anduril was in a good position to become an alternative to China in two to four years, but this move strongly undermines their credibility overseas.
    - Aachen 2y ago
AlecSchueler 2y ago
[flagged]
- jisnsm 2y ago
  [flagged]
- tomp 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - AlecSchueler 2y ago
    What even is masculine/feminine energy? I was making reference to Zuckerberg saying Facebook needed more masculine energy as it seemed to chime with the idea of "manning up." But honestly it feels as disconcerting to see people respond as if this is an actual thing, in as much as it would if HN were to take a sudden interest in astrology.
    - kergonath 2y ago
      Yeah. These replies are disturbing.
      - anonfordays 2y ago
        Many facts are disturbing.
    - Der_Einzige 2y ago
      Today, masculine energy means right wing and feminine or beta energy means left wing. If you don’t believe me, go read up on the genderfication of politics in the last 10 years. Women are from Venus and men are from mars. There’s no reconciling them.
      - AlecSchueler 2y ago
        Why would I read up on this? If I told you politics had been astrolified in the past 10 years and that right wingers were behaving with Leo energy while left wingers were behaving with Gemini energy would you want to look that up or would you recognise the absurdity of it and move on with your life?
throwaind29k 2y ago
Is no one in Europe not skeptical of the increase in defense spending? Things have costs, that money is having to come from somewhere. Is increasing traditional military spending the way to go in the 21st century? If the decision is left to military leaders,they might spend massive amounts of money preparing to fight yesterday's war. If you set aside alarmist positions, it may very well possible that Russia has no interests in military conflict with rest of Europe beyond Ukraine. In that case what is the best thing Europeans could do? There is danger and risk in military over spending at this juncture, and Europe needs to be level headed about it.
- guerrilla 2y ago
  It sounds like you're not keeping up on things. We know where the money is coming from. It's headline news daily in the financial press. What are you talking about? And yes, of course we need to defend ourselves.
  - xg15 2y ago
    The money is coming from increased debt.
- deadbabe 2y ago
  Europe has benefited a lot from not having to pour tons of money into defense spending. Europeans will be hurting if their countries suddenly have to shift finances for this. I think it’s much easier to just hunker down and appease the United States for four years and hope the next administrations are more merciful.
  - cjes 2y ago
    "hope"
  - GlobalFrog 2y ago
    Maybe... but probably not. Having to divert investments from one part of the economy to another is not that much a big problem: Russia has been doing the same and they have an economy of war that works more or less (some say they are on the brink of collapse and yet, they are still there). So, Europe can totally rely way less on the US, they just have to change their priorities, and they'll adapt just as Russia has adapted. Thinking they cannot is really presumptuous, or even comptemptuous (and a lot of people have made the same mistake with Russia by the way). And yet, at the moment, the US think that way, not believing in soft power any more, but only in pure pressure or even blackmail. If history teaches one thing, it is that you always create your own ennemies (Versailles treaty comes to mind).
01100011 2y ago
I hate to be the guy, but I find myself having to point this out to all of my doom-minded American friends. Yes, Trump is a criminal idiot, but one positive, probably unintended effect is that the world becomes more, in the words of Taleb, anti-fragile. As an American I am thrilled that Europe is becoming more united, more pragmatic, and more self-reliant. Our relationship is not over, it is just changing, and Europe is experiencing a long-needed renaissance. Of course Europe always had some ability to defend itself, but I think it's clear that some of that ability was outsourced to the US(with reciprocal benefits for the US, but still). Yes, this introduces some redundancy into the Western sphere, but that's a good thing.
- energy123 2y ago
  Multi-polarity isn't anti-fragility. Multi-polarity is bad with no redeeming qualities, you get more war and more nuclear proliferation.
  - 01100011 2y ago
    How much of the last 40 years have we been without a major war or "police action"? I don't think the world was as stable as you thought it was.
- darkhorn 2y ago
  More self-reliant like North Korea?
- jjk166 2y ago
  The American order that stood for decades was anti-fragile. Everyone outsourced their defense to some reasonable degree, so no one was strong enough to pose an existential threat to anyone else, so we could all afford to be off guard. Now every actor needs to have the strength to deter all others, which means everyone gets stronger, which means everyone needs even more strength to deter others, or deterrence simply breaks down. We had a multi-polar world in the past, it went terribly and led to massive wars. Now we are returning to that system but with nukes.

Thankfully it seems to be uniting the EU rather than dividing. Remains to be seen if they can get their act together though.

eunos 2y ago

[flagged]

eitland 2y ago
Better than having to cry in russian in 20 years. Also, according to Perun, if Europe collectively raises defense spending to somewhere near 4,5% (I think, check last Sundays episode) it will outspend not only US but US and China together.
- eunos 2y ago
  Might as well adopt Songun.
  - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
    Heh, North Korea is involved! *eg. https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/09/europe/russia-advances-kursk-ukraine-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/09/europe/russia-advances-ku...
TrackerFF 2y ago
FWIW, all European countries combined spend 5x more on military expenditure, than Russia. And that's using old numbers, before Trump became POTUS.
- bufferoverflow 2y ago
  Yet Russia has more brigades, more artillery and artillery shells, more nukes. The comment above is right. Europe needs to wake the hell up and increase military production 10X, even if temporarily. If Russians take Ukraine, they will force their population to attack the next country. Just like it happened with men of Donbass.
  - TrackerFF 2y ago
    lol Russia are barely making progress in Ukraine, and have effectively been in a stalemate since the 2022 invasion - while currently shipping back their wounded vets to the frontline on donkeys. Hadn't it been for Trump, Russia would effectively go bankrupt before being able to cross the Dnipro river. The only real capability Russia has, are their nuclear weapons and other long-range weapons - and even with the latter, they have been struggling. FWIW, I worked in the defense industry, and even before the invasion Russia has been viewed as a paper tiger. They're good at coming up with novel ideas and weaponry, but for whatever reason, struggle to successfully get things from the drawing board to operational weapons.
    - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
      s/are/were barely making progress. The ~20% [1] reduction [2] in total supplies to the ukraine front line lead to the logical prediction that frontline dynamics would be impacted. Early indicators suggest this prediction is materializing. [3]. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/International/ukraine-europe-react-shocking-trump-aid-freeze/story?id=119416808 https://abcnews.go.com/International/ukraine-europe-react-sh... Pre freeze: "Malcolm Chalmers, the deputy director-general of the Royal United Services Institute think tank in the U.K., told ABC News that recent estimates indicate the U.S. share of all military hardware sent to the front has fallen to around 20%, with 25% coming from Europe and 55% domestically produced in Ukraine." ; also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukrain... [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2025/03/04/us-weapons-shipments-ukraine-stopped-trump-order/81372499007/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2025/03/04/us-weapo... [3] https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/09/europe/russia-advances-kursk-ukraine-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/09/europe/russia-advances-ku...

throwaway_20357 2y ago

I'm sceptical. Recent movements in Germany point into the opposite direction or rather a continuation of wishful thinking. Yes, a lot of debt-funded defence investment is coming. They also promised some investment in "infrastructure". At the same time the debt increase will delay reforms that are overdue for 20 years and longer. There were already calls that, now, with all brakes off, we can increase rather than curb spending on the welfare state. As it currently looks, the productivity gap with the US and Asia will widen rather than shrink. A very disappointing development to say the least.

bootsmann 2y ago
European manufacturing is more productive than US manufacturing. The US productivity advantage comes almost entirely from the US' strong tech (as in software) sector.
- kragen 2y ago
  Tech (as in software) is what's being cut off to Ukraine, and tech (as in software, MEMS gyros, and GNSS) is how Ukraine keeps blowing up US$3M T-90 tanks with three or four US$500 FPV drones. So I think it's highly relevant to the question of sovereignty.
  - lfsh 2y ago
    As far as I know all cheap drone tech is provided by China (to both Russia and Ukraine).
    - kragen 2y ago
      It's largely kind of an international open-source effort, but there is a lot of crucial hardware that is only available from China, yes. Until this week I think Anduril was in a good position to become an alternative to China in two to four years, but this move strongly undermines their credibility overseas.
  - Aachen 2y ago

AlecSchueler 2y ago

[flagged]

jisnsm 2y ago
[flagged]
tomp 2y ago
[flagged]
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  What even is masculine/feminine energy? I was making reference to Zuckerberg saying Facebook needed more masculine energy as it seemed to chime with the idea of "manning up." But honestly it feels as disconcerting to see people respond as if this is an actual thing, in as much as it would if HN were to take a sudden interest in astrology.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    Yeah. These replies are disturbing.
    - anonfordays 2y ago
      Many facts are disturbing.
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    Today, masculine energy means right wing and feminine or beta energy means left wing. If you don’t believe me, go read up on the genderfication of politics in the last 10 years. Women are from Venus and men are from mars. There’s no reconciling them.
    - AlecSchueler 2y ago
      Why would I read up on this? If I told you politics had been astrolified in the past 10 years and that right wingers were behaving with Leo energy while left wingers were behaving with Gemini energy would you want to look that up or would you recognise the absurdity of it and move on with your life?

throwaind29k 2y ago

Is no one in Europe not skeptical of the increase in defense spending? Things have costs, that money is having to come from somewhere. Is increasing traditional military spending the way to go in the 21st century? If the decision is left to military leaders,they might spend massive amounts of money preparing to fight yesterday's war. If you set aside alarmist positions, it may very well possible that Russia has no interests in military conflict with rest of Europe beyond Ukraine. In that case what is the best thing Europeans could do? There is danger and risk in military over spending at this juncture, and Europe needs to be level headed about it.

guerrilla 2y ago
It sounds like you're not keeping up on things. We know where the money is coming from. It's headline news daily in the financial press. What are you talking about? And yes, of course we need to defend ourselves.
- xg15 2y ago
  The money is coming from increased debt.
deadbabe 2y ago
Europe has benefited a lot from not having to pour tons of money into defense spending. Europeans will be hurting if their countries suddenly have to shift finances for this. I think it’s much easier to just hunker down and appease the United States for four years and hope the next administrations are more merciful.
- cjes 2y ago
  "hope"
- GlobalFrog 2y ago
  Maybe... but probably not. Having to divert investments from one part of the economy to another is not that much a big problem: Russia has been doing the same and they have an economy of war that works more or less (some say they are on the brink of collapse and yet, they are still there). So, Europe can totally rely way less on the US, they just have to change their priorities, and they'll adapt just as Russia has adapted. Thinking they cannot is really presumptuous, or even comptemptuous (and a lot of people have made the same mistake with Russia by the way). And yet, at the moment, the US think that way, not believing in soft power any more, but only in pure pressure or even blackmail. If history teaches one thing, it is that you always create your own ennemies (Versailles treaty comes to mind).

01100011 2y ago

I hate to be the guy, but I find myself having to point this out to all of my doom-minded American friends. Yes, Trump is a criminal idiot, but one positive, probably unintended effect is that the world becomes more, in the words of Taleb, anti-fragile. As an American I am thrilled that Europe is becoming more united, more pragmatic, and more self-reliant. Our relationship is not over, it is just changing, and Europe is experiencing a long-needed renaissance. Of course Europe always had some ability to defend itself, but I think it's clear that some of that ability was outsourced to the US(with reciprocal benefits for the US, but still). Yes, this introduces some redundancy into the Western sphere, but that's a good thing.

energy123 2y ago
Multi-polarity isn't anti-fragility. Multi-polarity is bad with no redeeming qualities, you get more war and more nuclear proliferation.
- 01100011 2y ago
  How much of the last 40 years have we been without a major war or "police action"? I don't think the world was as stable as you thought it was.
darkhorn 2y ago
More self-reliant like North Korea?
jjk166 2y ago
The American order that stood for decades was anti-fragile. Everyone outsourced their defense to some reasonable degree, so no one was strong enough to pose an existential threat to anyone else, so we could all afford to be off guard. Now every actor needs to have the strength to deter all others, which means everyone gets stronger, which means everyone needs even more strength to deter others, or deterrence simply breaks down. We had a multi-polar world in the past, it went terribly and led to massive wars. Now we are returning to that system but with nukes.