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Ok. Russia evil, Ukraine good. Now what? Do we sit around and wait for the chosen one? Is Zelensky the one? How much time should we give him? Maybe Trump is the

by mnsc 2y ago

Ok. Russia evil, Ukraine good. Now what? Do we sit around and wait for the chosen one? Is Zelensky the one? How much time should we give him? Maybe Trump is the one? Don't get me wrong, I'm swede and like most here I'm firmly on Ukraine's side and see the pure evil shit Russian military does _every _day without any illusions. But this framing of good vs evil does not seem to pan out. A common sentiment is just to wipe out Russia from the map. And tempting as it might be, that doesn't seem very noble/good and the alternative, "Russian people finds the good in them and throw out the oligarchy forcefully and install democracy", is very naive. I mean even the US, a fully armed populace of strong freeminded men can't seem to see that they are treading the same path as Russia and take action. How reasonable is it then to have that expectation of a people systematically disempowered for decades.

actionfromafar 2y ago
"Throw the Russians out of Ukraine" would suffice. No need to wipe anything out. (Except what logistically is needed to achieve said goal.) Good vs evil is simplistic, but it serves as shorthand for "it's worth fighting for".
- wolvesechoes 2y ago
  "Good vs evil is simplistic, but it serves as shorthand for "it's worth fighting for"." Are you in Donbas currently? If not, you are not fighting anything.
  - diggan 2y ago
    > Are you in Donbas currently? If not, you are not fighting anything. That's a very simplistic world-view. One does not have to be on the frontlines to help an effort. People donating to https://ukrainedefensefund.org/ https://ukrainedefensefund.org/ are still "fighting", even though they aren't literally gunning people down in Donbas.
    - wolvesechoes 2y ago
      No, it is not simplistic. People donating are, well, donating. It is a right thing, a noble thing, it is a necessary thing. But they are not fighting. They do not take the same risk, they do not suffer the same, they do no share burden with those that do.
  - PhasmaFelis 2y ago
    No one said they were.
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    How do you want this worded? It’s worth giving the Ukrainians a fuckton of equipment, and potentially organized military intervention for? You can summarize that as ‘fighting’. The problem is that as a European, giving in here means they come closer. Next time it’s the Polish border, then the German.
Aeolun 2y ago
Why would you want to wipe Russia off the map? I don’t think we’d achieve anything with that except our own destruction. I’d settle for giving them a good punch in the face instead of strongly worded letters. Asassinate Putin, a sponsored coup. Something like that. Good vs evil is simplistic enough that It can be used to convince basically anyone that those are a good idea. The only thing we really have to be wary of is that thing someone said: The only thing that’s necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

by mnsc 2y ago

actionfromafar 2y ago

"Throw the Russians out of Ukraine" would suffice. No need to wipe anything out. (Except what logistically is needed to achieve said goal.) Good vs evil is simplistic, but it serves as shorthand for "it's worth fighting for".

wolvesechoes 2y ago
"Good vs evil is simplistic, but it serves as shorthand for "it's worth fighting for"." Are you in Donbas currently? If not, you are not fighting anything.
- diggan 2y ago
  > Are you in Donbas currently? If not, you are not fighting anything. That's a very simplistic world-view. One does not have to be on the frontlines to help an effort. People donating to https://ukrainedefensefund.org/ https://ukrainedefensefund.org/ are still "fighting", even though they aren't literally gunning people down in Donbas.
  - wolvesechoes 2y ago
    No, it is not simplistic. People donating are, well, donating. It is a right thing, a noble thing, it is a necessary thing. But they are not fighting. They do not take the same risk, they do not suffer the same, they do no share burden with those that do.
- PhasmaFelis 2y ago
  No one said they were.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  How do you want this worded? It’s worth giving the Ukrainians a fuckton of equipment, and potentially organized military intervention for? You can summarize that as ‘fighting’. The problem is that as a European, giving in here means they come closer. Next time it’s the Polish border, then the German.

Aeolun 2y ago

Why would you want to wipe Russia off the map? I don’t think we’d achieve anything with that except our own destruction. I’d settle for giving them a good punch in the face instead of strongly worded letters. Asassinate Putin, a sponsored coup. Something like that. Good vs evil is simplistic enough that It can be used to convince basically anyone that those are a good idea. The only thing we really have to be wary of is that thing someone said: The only thing that’s necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.