4 ms·

Overpromoting full-body MRI (to healthy, insured people with no symptoms of disease) by direct-marketing (e.g. to walk-by consumers in malls) has been a thing i

by smcin 2y ago

Overpromoting full-body MRI (to healthy, insured people with no symptoms of disease) by direct-marketing (e.g. to walk-by consumers in malls) has been a thing in the US for several decades, long before TikTok.

lostlogin 2y ago
I’m an MR tech and this has wasted a lot of my time, all of it is a direct result of the Kardashian saga. I’m in New Zealand so the scenario is slightly different.
- smcin 2y ago
  This was already going on over a decade before (in the US); hadn't even heard of Kardashian shilling for Pronuvo. Previously it was the walk-up/no-appt-needed full-body MRI places in shopping malls. A few randomly-found pre-2020 citations to corroborate: “I Want a Whole-Body MRI” When Patients Demand Unnecessary Tests 2019 https://www.midwestmedicaledition.com/articles/i-want-a-whole-body-mri-when-patients-demand-unnecessary-tests https://www.midwestmedicaledition.com/articles/i-want-a-whol... "Are MRI’s Being Overused?" 2015 AdventHealth University https://www.ahu.edu/blog/are-mris-being-overused https://www.ahu.edu/blog/are-mris-being-overused
  - smcin 2y ago
    Kardashian allegedly was not paid to promote Pronuvo [on Instagram] and was not an investor. Other celebrities who have endorsed Prenuvo include Paris Hilton, Kate Hudson, and Kris Jenner. However Mark Cuban who promoted it was an investor. As to prior boom-and-bust waves of full-body scan business (self-correction: I shoud have said the previous wave was CT scans, not MRI), GQ 8/2023 [0] "Almost 20 years ago, there was a boom and bust of body-scanning clinics, as The New York Times [1][1-archive] covered in 2005. It was a “a sort of medical gold rush,” boosted by direct-to-consumer advertising that got thousands to cough up out-of-pocket payments -- sometimes up to $1000 ... It began as a sort of medical gold rush, with hundreds of scanning centers, with ceaseless direct-to-consumer advertising, and with thousands of Americans paying out of pocket for the scans, which could cost $1,000 or more. It ended abruptly with the wholesale shuttering of businesses." Prenuvo's CEO, Andrew Lacy appears to have zero medical credentials and zero scientific background; however he's big in marketing startups. Here are some very dodgy statements from his podcast [2] "How I Built This with Guy Raz - Full body preventive health care with Andrew Lacy of Prenuvo" where Raz asks his to "ask you about the science behind it, and also the criticsms... overwhelming oposition from the medical establishment... I have not found any official endorsement of what you're doing... many public health experts are like: people should not be doing this, it's very expensive... unnecessary procedures, false positives" [20:30] and Lacy replies [21:52] "I don't think you've fairly characterized what they say... not true, a lack of comprehensive, long-term evidence is not... [does not finish his sentence]... I think these statements also have been made about pap smears and mamograms, so this is a very very natural point in the journey from potentially breakthrough screening technology to a point at which it is inevitably adopted, and I hope it won't take thirty years..." [23:40] "... These are very new techniques... and you really need first-hand knowledge to be able to form an opinion that is informed, and there's noone that has really spoken out against these technologies that has experienced it first-hand(!)... in fact most of those people bring their family members in and then start referring their patients" [implies that any doctor who tries it will endorse it]. Disappointing that Raz didn't cut that off "there is zero medical or scientific evidence for your claim. Where are the peer-reviewed studies? Which doctors are you claiming endorse it?". [0]: https://www.gq.com/story/kim-kardashian-endorses-full-body-diagnostic-scans https://www.gq.com/story/kim-kardashian-endorses-full-body-d... [1]: NYT 1/2005 "Rapid Rise and Fall for Body-Scanning Clinics" https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/health/rapid-rise-and-fall-for-bodyscanning-clinics.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/health/rapid-rise-and-fal... [1-archive]: https://archive.ph/UcahO https://archive.ph/UcahO [2]: 12/7/2023 https://one.npr.org/?sharedMediaId=1217778389:1217778391 https://one.npr.org/?sharedMediaId=1217778389:1217778391
    - smcin 2y ago
      Correction: Andrew Lacy appears to have zero medical credentials and nearly zero scientific background; he once spent 9 whole months secondment from McKinsey identifying and commercializing scientific research "which meant talking to hundreds of scientists and then trying to figure out if and how their research could lead to commercial applications... drive over $1 billion in annual sales of R&D services.".
- bagels 2y ago
  What is "the Kardashian saga" as it relates to MR?
  - smcin 2y ago
    I replied above "Kardashian [and Mark Cuban, and others] endorsing Prenuvo". GQ 8/2023 "Full Body Scan: Kim Kardashian Endorses Them. But Are They Worth It?" https://www.gq.com/story/kim-kardashian-endorses-full-body-diagnostic-scans https://www.gq.com/story/kim-kardashian-endorses-full-body-d... r/Radiology: Explaining the whole Prenuvo mess to the layman... https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/17sdguu/explaining_the_whole_prenuvo_mess_to_the_layman/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/17sdguu/explaini... r/PeterAttia Anyone have regrets over doing the Prenuvo scan/Full body MRI? https://www.reddit.com/r/PeterAttia/comments/1fievpc/anyone_have_regrets_over_doing_the_prenuvo/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PeterAttia/comments/1fievpc/anyone_... multiple negative reviews, including one experience by Historical-Sail-3636: "I regret getting a full body prenuvo scan ! It’s a scam ! Don’t do it. The radiologists reviewing and signing the scans are not properly licensed. They are the rejects of the medical community. Check the license of the radiologist that read your scan! You’ll be surprised." "We Tried Prenuvo's $2,500 MRI Scan. Here's What We Learned and Why It's Not for Everyone" https://www.verywellhealth.com/prenuvo-full-body-mri-scan-7693049 https://www.verywellhealth.com/prenuvo-full-body-mri-scan-76...
nradov 2y ago
Insurance isn't much of a factor for that particular scam. They convince the affluent "worried well" patients to pay out of pocket because most insurers will only authorize an MRI based on specific clinical criteria.
- smcin 2y ago
  Ok: "rich, healthy" customers. "[well-]insured" is correlated with "rich", at least in the US. The point is, it's easier to worry healthy rich people ("worried well" as you say) that they might have a disease, and you can repeat that multiple times, and recruit their friends too.

by smcin 2y ago

lostlogin 2y ago

I’m an MR tech and this has wasted a lot of my time, all of it is a direct result of the Kardashian saga. I’m in New Zealand so the scenario is slightly different.

smcin 2y ago
This was already going on over a decade before (in the US); hadn't even heard of Kardashian shilling for Pronuvo. Previously it was the walk-up/no-appt-needed full-body MRI places in shopping malls. A few randomly-found pre-2020 citations to corroborate: “I Want a Whole-Body MRI” When Patients Demand Unnecessary Tests 2019 https://www.midwestmedicaledition.com/articles/i-want-a-whole-body-mri-when-patients-demand-unnecessary-tests https://www.midwestmedicaledition.com/articles/i-want-a-whol... "Are MRI’s Being Overused?" 2015 AdventHealth University https://www.ahu.edu/blog/are-mris-being-overused https://www.ahu.edu/blog/are-mris-being-overused
- smcin 2y ago
  Kardashian allegedly was not paid to promote Pronuvo [on Instagram] and was not an investor. Other celebrities who have endorsed Prenuvo include Paris Hilton, Kate Hudson, and Kris Jenner. However Mark Cuban who promoted it was an investor. As to prior boom-and-bust waves of full-body scan business (self-correction: I shoud have said the previous wave was CT scans, not MRI), GQ 8/2023 [0] "Almost 20 years ago, there was a boom and bust of body-scanning clinics, as The New York Times [1][1-archive] covered in 2005. It was a “a sort of medical gold rush,” boosted by direct-to-consumer advertising that got thousands to cough up out-of-pocket payments -- sometimes up to $1000 ... It began as a sort of medical gold rush, with hundreds of scanning centers, with ceaseless direct-to-consumer advertising, and with thousands of Americans paying out of pocket for the scans, which could cost $1,000 or more. It ended abruptly with the wholesale shuttering of businesses." Prenuvo's CEO, Andrew Lacy appears to have zero medical credentials and zero scientific background; however he's big in marketing startups. Here are some very dodgy statements from his podcast [2] "How I Built This with Guy Raz - Full body preventive health care with Andrew Lacy of Prenuvo" where Raz asks his to "ask you about the science behind it, and also the criticsms... overwhelming oposition from the medical establishment... I have not found any official endorsement of what you're doing... many public health experts are like: people should not be doing this, it's very expensive... unnecessary procedures, false positives" [20:30] and Lacy replies [21:52] "I don't think you've fairly characterized what they say... not true, a lack of comprehensive, long-term evidence is not... [does not finish his sentence]... I think these statements also have been made about pap smears and mamograms, so this is a very very natural point in the journey from potentially breakthrough screening technology to a point at which it is inevitably adopted, and I hope it won't take thirty years..." [23:40] "... These are very new techniques... and you really need first-hand knowledge to be able to form an opinion that is informed, and there's noone that has really spoken out against these technologies that has experienced it first-hand(!)... in fact most of those people bring their family members in and then start referring their patients" [implies that any doctor who tries it will endorse it]. Disappointing that Raz didn't cut that off "there is zero medical or scientific evidence for your claim. Where are the peer-reviewed studies? Which doctors are you claiming endorse it?". [0]: https://www.gq.com/story/kim-kardashian-endorses-full-body-diagnostic-scans https://www.gq.com/story/kim-kardashian-endorses-full-body-d... [1]: NYT 1/2005 "Rapid Rise and Fall for Body-Scanning Clinics" https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/health/rapid-rise-and-fall-for-bodyscanning-clinics.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/health/rapid-rise-and-fal... [1-archive]: https://archive.ph/UcahO https://archive.ph/UcahO [2]: 12/7/2023 https://one.npr.org/?sharedMediaId=1217778389:1217778391 https://one.npr.org/?sharedMediaId=1217778389:1217778391
  - smcin 2y ago
    Correction: Andrew Lacy appears to have zero medical credentials and nearly zero scientific background; he once spent 9 whole months secondment from McKinsey identifying and commercializing scientific research "which meant talking to hundreds of scientists and then trying to figure out if and how their research could lead to commercial applications... drive over $1 billion in annual sales of R&D services.".
bagels 2y ago
What is "the Kardashian saga" as it relates to MR?
- smcin 2y ago
  I replied above "Kardashian [and Mark Cuban, and others] endorsing Prenuvo". GQ 8/2023 "Full Body Scan: Kim Kardashian Endorses Them. But Are They Worth It?" https://www.gq.com/story/kim-kardashian-endorses-full-body-diagnostic-scans https://www.gq.com/story/kim-kardashian-endorses-full-body-d... r/Radiology: Explaining the whole Prenuvo mess to the layman... https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/17sdguu/explaining_the_whole_prenuvo_mess_to_the_layman/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/17sdguu/explaini... r/PeterAttia Anyone have regrets over doing the Prenuvo scan/Full body MRI? https://www.reddit.com/r/PeterAttia/comments/1fievpc/anyone_have_regrets_over_doing_the_prenuvo/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PeterAttia/comments/1fievpc/anyone_... multiple negative reviews, including one experience by Historical-Sail-3636: "I regret getting a full body prenuvo scan ! It’s a scam ! Don’t do it. The radiologists reviewing and signing the scans are not properly licensed. They are the rejects of the medical community. Check the license of the radiologist that read your scan! You’ll be surprised." "We Tried Prenuvo's $2,500 MRI Scan. Here's What We Learned and Why It's Not for Everyone" https://www.verywellhealth.com/prenuvo-full-body-mri-scan-7693049 https://www.verywellhealth.com/prenuvo-full-body-mri-scan-76...

nradov 2y ago

Insurance isn't much of a factor for that particular scam. They convince the affluent "worried well" patients to pay out of pocket because most insurers will only authorize an MRI based on specific clinical criteria.

smcin 2y ago
Ok: "rich, healthy" customers. "[well-]insured" is correlated with "rich", at least in the US. The point is, it's easier to worry healthy rich people ("worried well" as you say) that they might have a disease, and you can repeat that multiple times, and recruit their friends too.