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> When we could have had basic resources like energy, water, some staple foods and shelter provided for free (or nearly free) through automation. I was inspire

> When we could have had basic resources like energy, water, some staple foods and shelter provided for free (or nearly free) through automation. I was inspired to get into programming by Star Trek in the early 2000s because I thought I could contribute to automation that would lead towards that kind of society; much like you've stated here. Some will say we're naive and unrealistic, but all the ingredients for having society function in this way are attainable with a bit of a cultural shift. I was fine with the idea that society could take baby steps towards it, but it seems the last 25 years have been a mixture of regressing and small incremental improvements to things that don't contribute towards that goal. Just like you, my expectations have been utterly destroyed and my outlook for the future is grim.

justonceokay 2y ago
The Star Trek future does seem out of reach. On the other hand canonically they only got to fully automated luxury space communism after fighting a global nuclear war against eugenisists.
andsoitis 2y ago
In Star Trek, people do actually work and have responsibilities with little (or no) leisure time or say over how they spend their days.
- andai 2y ago
  In Star Trek money exists but there isn't much use for it because technology has made material abundance cost approximately nothing. Star Trek doesn't show the 50 billion landwhales watching Netflix all day, because it makes for bad television. It shows the 1% who still work even when they don't have to, who work because they want to.
  - derangedHorse 2y ago
    People very much have to work in Star Trek. If they don't, unsuspecting enemies like Q, the Romulans, or the Borg would eradicate the Federation's existence. They also have their own forms of scarcity. Replicators are somewhat common but Holodecks are not and members of the crew must schedule time to use them. Resource allocation is determined through the decisions of leaders in the beauratic hierarchy and the longer you watch, the more you see the ways in which the Federation falls short.
- spauldo 2y ago
  Most of the characters in Star Trek are in the military. That's pretty much part for the course.
ch4s3 2y ago
> but all the ingredients for having society function in this way are attainable with a bit of a cultural shift It's awfully naive to think that you can solve the information problem with a "small cultural shift". Statements like this strike me as deeply ignorant of economics and the history of attempts to plan society. People are messy and their needs are hard to predict in any meaningful and responsive way that respects their preferences. Imagine answering the question how many washing machines should we make. Assuming you could figure this out, you need to consider the different kinds of washing machines people may want and need. Apartment dwellers need small efficient one, and people with a lot of kids want big ones. This in turn has baring on the number of motors you have to make, feet of copper wire you need to product, plastics, rubber, and on and on. And don't forget that's just washing machines. Now you need to figure out how to get these washing machines to people. You just can't plan and automate everything, its far too complicated.
- lurk2 2y ago
  He's talking about automating labor, not economic planning.
  - ch4s3 2y ago
    It’s the same thing. Anything that could be automated but isn’t automated is because it isn’t cost effective to do so or there is insufficient capital to invest. These are resource allocation issues. You can’t just wave that away.
    - lurk2 2y ago
      No it isn't. Using a script to automate a process frees me from having to carry out the process manually. It has nothing to do with central economic planning.
      - ch4s3 2y ago
        Most things in the world require physical processes. Automating those is quite a different task, and requires resources. How would you go about automating sewing a shirt? How about picking strawberries? Again this is tech hubris and a lack of understanding of economics and history.
WalterBright 2y ago
Milton Friedman's essay on making a pencil: "Look at this lead pencil. There’s not a single person in the world who could make this pencil. Remarkable statement? Not at all. The wood from which it is made, for all I know, comes from a tree that was cut down in the state of Washington. To cut down that tree, it took a saw. To make the saw, it took steel. To make steel, it took iron ore. This black center—we call it lead but it’s really graphite, compressed graphite—I’m not sure where it comes from, but I think it comes from some mines in South America. This red top up here, this eraser, a bit of rubber, probably comes from Malaya, where the rubber tree isn’t even native! It was imported from South America by some businessmen with the help of the British government. This brass ferrule? [Self-effacing laughter.] I haven’t the slightest idea where it came from. Or the yellow paint! Or the paint that made the black lines. Or the glue that holds it together. Literally thousands of people co-operated to make this pencil. People who don’t speak the same language, who practice different religions, who might hate one another if they ever met! When you go down to the store and buy this pencil, you are in effect trading a few minutes of your time for a few seconds of the time of all those thousands of people. What brought them together and induced them to cooperate to make this pencil? There was no commissar sending … out orders from some central office. It was the magic of the price system: the impersonal operation of prices that brought them together and got them to cooperate, to make this pencil, so you could have it for a trifling sum. That is why the operation of the free market is so essential. Not only to promote productive efficiency, but even more to foster harmony and peace among the peoples of the world." https://thenewinquiry.com/milton-friedmans-pencil/ https://thenewinquiry.com/milton-friedmans-pencil/
- zahlman 2y ago
  Thanks. I'd wanted to search for this, but forgot who'd written it...
- carte_blanche 2y ago
  Thank you for that recommendation. Added this 10-hour documentary featuring Milton Friedman to the top of my to-watch list: https://www.freetochoosenetwork.org/programs/free_to_choose/index_80.php https://www.freetochoosenetwork.org/programs/free_to_choose/...

justonceokay 2y ago

The Star Trek future does seem out of reach. On the other hand canonically they only got to fully automated luxury space communism after fighting a global nuclear war against eugenisists.

andsoitis 2y ago

In Star Trek, people do actually work and have responsibilities with little (or no) leisure time or say over how they spend their days.

andai 2y ago
In Star Trek money exists but there isn't much use for it because technology has made material abundance cost approximately nothing. Star Trek doesn't show the 50 billion landwhales watching Netflix all day, because it makes for bad television. It shows the 1% who still work even when they don't have to, who work because they want to.
- derangedHorse 2y ago
  People very much have to work in Star Trek. If they don't, unsuspecting enemies like Q, the Romulans, or the Borg would eradicate the Federation's existence. They also have their own forms of scarcity. Replicators are somewhat common but Holodecks are not and members of the crew must schedule time to use them. Resource allocation is determined through the decisions of leaders in the beauratic hierarchy and the longer you watch, the more you see the ways in which the Federation falls short.
spauldo 2y ago
Most of the characters in Star Trek are in the military. That's pretty much part for the course.

ch4s3 2y ago

> but all the ingredients for having society function in this way are attainable with a bit of a cultural shift It's awfully naive to think that you can solve the information problem with a "small cultural shift". Statements like this strike me as deeply ignorant of economics and the history of attempts to plan society. People are messy and their needs are hard to predict in any meaningful and responsive way that respects their preferences. Imagine answering the question how many washing machines should we make. Assuming you could figure this out, you need to consider the different kinds of washing machines people may want and need. Apartment dwellers need small efficient one, and people with a lot of kids want big ones. This in turn has baring on the number of motors you have to make, feet of copper wire you need to product, plastics, rubber, and on and on. And don't forget that's just washing machines. Now you need to figure out how to get these washing machines to people. You just can't plan and automate everything, its far too complicated.

lurk2 2y ago
He's talking about automating labor, not economic planning.
- ch4s3 2y ago
  It’s the same thing. Anything that could be automated but isn’t automated is because it isn’t cost effective to do so or there is insufficient capital to invest. These are resource allocation issues. You can’t just wave that away.
  - lurk2 2y ago
    No it isn't. Using a script to automate a process frees me from having to carry out the process manually. It has nothing to do with central economic planning.
    - ch4s3 2y ago
      Most things in the world require physical processes. Automating those is quite a different task, and requires resources. How would you go about automating sewing a shirt? How about picking strawberries? Again this is tech hubris and a lack of understanding of economics and history.

WalterBright 2y ago

Milton Friedman's essay on making a pencil: "Look at this lead pencil. There’s not a single person in the world who could make this pencil. Remarkable statement? Not at all. The wood from which it is made, for all I know, comes from a tree that was cut down in the state of Washington. To cut down that tree, it took a saw. To make the saw, it took steel. To make steel, it took iron ore. This black center—we call it lead but it’s really graphite, compressed graphite—I’m not sure where it comes from, but I think it comes from some mines in South America. This red top up here, this eraser, a bit of rubber, probably comes from Malaya, where the rubber tree isn’t even native! It was imported from South America by some businessmen with the help of the British government. This brass ferrule? [Self-effacing laughter.] I haven’t the slightest idea where it came from. Or the yellow paint! Or the paint that made the black lines. Or the glue that holds it together. Literally thousands of people co-operated to make this pencil. People who don’t speak the same language, who practice different religions, who might hate one another if they ever met! When you go down to the store and buy this pencil, you are in effect trading a few minutes of your time for a few seconds of the time of all those thousands of people. What brought them together and induced them to cooperate to make this pencil? There was no commissar sending … out orders from some central office. It was the magic of the price system: the impersonal operation of prices that brought them together and got them to cooperate, to make this pencil, so you could have it for a trifling sum. That is why the operation of the free market is so essential. Not only to promote productive efficiency, but even more to foster harmony and peace among the peoples of the world." https://thenewinquiry.com/milton-friedmans-pencil/ https://thenewinquiry.com/milton-friedmans-pencil/

zahlman 2y ago
Thanks. I'd wanted to search for this, but forgot who'd written it...
carte_blanche 2y ago
Thank you for that recommendation. Added this 10-hour documentary featuring Milton Friedman to the top of my to-watch list: https://www.freetochoosenetwork.org/programs/free_to_choose/index_80.php https://www.freetochoosenetwork.org/programs/free_to_choose/...