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The world is run by the rich, for the rich. Rich people get paid for being rich when there is growth. If real growth can't be had, fake growth (inflation and

The world is run by the rich, for the rich. Rich people get paid for being rich when there is growth. If real growth can't be had, fake growth (inflation and debt) will do, since it serves the same ultimate purpose just as well: paying rich people for being rich. The beatings will continue until the growth resumes.

worldsayshi 2y ago
> The world is run by the rich, for the rich. I sympathize but am extremely frustrated at this defeatist idea. Yes they run it, but only because people in general fail to coordinate around some other way of doing things. It's coordination plain and "simple". The rich doesn't run the world. They tell people what to do and people run the world as they command because there seems to be no better alternative. Why have we stopped trying out better ways to coordinate? We somehow have come to believe that mass coordination outside of corporations can't be improved upon.
- 3np 2y ago
  > Why have we stopped trying out better ways to coordinate? To a large extent because somehow "that serves no purpose", "any alternative is a scam" and "blockchain evil" propaganda have been very effective in an environment where greed has been distracting too many from the damn point. We need to relearn and establish new ways to run perpetual and huge coordination efforts outside of corporate systems and government without fear or greed as necessary driving forces. The first step is to start trying ans honestly explore options.
  - worldsayshi 2y ago
    > greed has been distracting too many from the damn point I also suspect that another factor is ever increasing acceptance of the immutability of debt. When most people are stuck in debt they have to keep running in the treadmill. Imagine if there was a non-blockable way for everyone to vote on a universal debt cancellation event - "Should we all just from now on ignore any debt incurred before today? ¤ yes, ¤ no".
    - pixl97 2y ago
      >everyone to vote on a universal debt cancellation event Just look at the student loan forgiveness debacle. It seems our population would sooner vote in capital punishment for not paying debt.
      - ryandrake 2y ago
        It's also why the US never votes to fix health care. "I suffered a terrible system, therefore the next generations must, too." Crab bucket mentality.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      A one-time debt reset would be a great experiment, but without also resetting who owns the businesses and who doesn't, the same people would eventually be back to the same levels of debt. You need to correct the derivative and the second derivative.
      - worldsayshi 2y ago
        > the same people would eventually be back to the same levels of debt Well there's always the option of periodic debt cancellation. Such ideas are not untested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_debt_relief https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_debt_relief
- datadrivenangel 2y ago
  The costs of better coordination -- defecting from the status quo -- varies from moderate to lethal. It's not free. There are a lot of people working on coordination though.
  - worldsayshi 2y ago
    > There are a lot of people working on coordination though Where? Genuinely curious.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Where? Genuinely curious Thiel, for one.
      - worldsayshi 2y ago
        Thiel is the one trying to collapse the government and bring about techno feudal ancap where him and his cronies own everything in a butterfly revolution no?
- psadauskas 2y ago
  Because the people who can coordinate this are working 9-5 jobs, (or 2 or 3 minimum wage gigs), have families and/or kids, and don't have a whole lot of time or energy to organize when so much of it goes towards surviving. Or have a lot to lose by rocking the boat. Vs the rich people, who can set aside a million, or ten million, or whatever, and pay people to propagandize on their behalf. A million bucks a year can pay 10 people to work full time and go on cable news programs to be "interviewed", or write think pieces in newspapers, or spread misinformation on social media. And yeah, its defeatist. I don't know how we overcome this until people are fed up enough to prioritize it, and are willing to stick their necks out.
  - worldsayshi 2y ago
    > don't have a whole lot of time or energy I get this but I'm not really talking about making sacrifices or having people who don't have time spending a lot of it. I'm just wondering why not even those that seem to have a lot of time and mental fortitude seem to discuss or be able to come up with alternative ideas that people pick up and can work with.
darth_avocado 2y ago
Too many people don’t learn from history. Especially the Rich. There was a very popular thing the French did when things got out of hand. And they were not the only only to do it throughout the history.
- nazgulsenpai 2y ago
  How quickly do you think those people would be declared terrorists and neutralized in 2025?
  - dingnuts 2y ago
    why dont you tell us, nazgulsenpai? I mean why bother resist against a tyrannical government right? sheesh. Relevant username.
    - nazgulsenpai 2y ago
      I'm not sure what my username has to do with anything, or why the combative tone. It's intended as a thought exercise, if a revolution in the spirit of the French revolution were to happen today, with the surveillance at the government's disposal, how quickly would it be justified legally (declared terrorists) and neutralized. The more time passes, the more technological advances are used for mass surveillance and propaganda, the less likely it seems.
      - metalman 2y ago
        there is a presumption on your part, that control of the net, is absolute revolutions of the past,have all included some control of the press and we can see, everywhere, the frantic efforts to control the net, and digital currency the old axiom of "control the press and the mint, and they can have the rest" is now bieng put to the test, internaly and externaly. the truth bieng that the level of control now possible, real realy realy, is cramping everybodys style, and so the forms of protest and revolution are evolving, and matching the wierdness, insanity for insanity, there IS absolute control , but there is no sure way to describe what exactly is bieng controlled, no revolutionary symbols,check no calls to kill the leaders,check billions of worky workers, worky working, check, trillions of hours spent grinding out an entirely new and evolving memetic language of comunication in a vast never ending seathing quest for some meaning, uh huh.
torginus 2y ago
This is a bit of an aside but why is this rich-bashing so endemic to modern Western society, even at the highest levels? To be clear I'm not asking if the rich are evil or not, I am asking why are there movies with hundred-million dollar budgets, whose entire message is that the 'rich are evil'? Why are there leftist newspapers 'fighting for the little guy', staffed by 1%ers, and owned by billionaires? Why is the cookie cutter young adult dystopia book, sold by the millions, about a bunch of poor kids in a dystopian capitalist society? None of this shit makes sense to me.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  Consider the pervasive narratives those people are reacting to: that people who are wealthy/powerful are better humans. Being poor is often seen as a moral failing, whereas people who are wealthy are attractive, intelligent people. In some cases, "better" is even meant literally, like this well-known, only partly tongue-in-cheek new Yorker article (https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/rich-people-really-are-better https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/rich-people-rea...) or the British class system. You're only questioning one half of these ideas.
  - argentinian 2y ago
    Where do you observe the promotion of the absurd narrative that says that the rich are better humans?
    - AlotOfReading 2y ago
      Well, you could look at the examples provided, any of various historical (and modern) class systems, great man theory, do a quick search (e.g. https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/05/08/new-psychological-studies-how-the-wealthy-really-are-different-from-everyone-else/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/05/08/new-...), read self-help literature (e.g. rich dad, poor dad), and so on. It might be harder to find media where that narrative isn't either present or intentionally absent. And just because something is present doesn't mean it's an intentional or complete narrative being promoted by the author. This is simply an idea that's virtually omnipresent in Western societies, like the acceptance of capitalism or the system of colors. Things that challenge these sorts of deeply assumed ideas often seem like attacks on society itself. If you want an author who intentionally addresses it, Ursula Guin has made it a big focus of her works (e.g. Omelas, the hainish cycle).
immibis 2y ago
They are only rich because we value what they have. What's the difference between a US dollar and a square of toilet paper? One is more rectangular and has a guy's face printed on it.

worldsayshi 2y ago

> The world is run by the rich, for the rich. I sympathize but am extremely frustrated at this defeatist idea. Yes they run it, but only because people in general fail to coordinate around some other way of doing things. It's coordination plain and "simple". The rich doesn't run the world. They tell people what to do and people run the world as they command because there seems to be no better alternative. Why have we stopped trying out better ways to coordinate? We somehow have come to believe that mass coordination outside of corporations can't be improved upon.

3np 2y ago
> Why have we stopped trying out better ways to coordinate? To a large extent because somehow "that serves no purpose", "any alternative is a scam" and "blockchain evil" propaganda have been very effective in an environment where greed has been distracting too many from the damn point. We need to relearn and establish new ways to run perpetual and huge coordination efforts outside of corporate systems and government without fear or greed as necessary driving forces. The first step is to start trying ans honestly explore options.
- worldsayshi 2y ago
  > greed has been distracting too many from the damn point I also suspect that another factor is ever increasing acceptance of the immutability of debt. When most people are stuck in debt they have to keep running in the treadmill. Imagine if there was a non-blockable way for everyone to vote on a universal debt cancellation event - "Should we all just from now on ignore any debt incurred before today? ¤ yes, ¤ no".
  - pixl97 2y ago
    >everyone to vote on a universal debt cancellation event Just look at the student loan forgiveness debacle. It seems our population would sooner vote in capital punishment for not paying debt.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      It's also why the US never votes to fix health care. "I suffered a terrible system, therefore the next generations must, too." Crab bucket mentality.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    A one-time debt reset would be a great experiment, but without also resetting who owns the businesses and who doesn't, the same people would eventually be back to the same levels of debt. You need to correct the derivative and the second derivative.
    - worldsayshi 2y ago
      > the same people would eventually be back to the same levels of debt Well there's always the option of periodic debt cancellation. Such ideas are not untested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_debt_relief https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_debt_relief
datadrivenangel 2y ago
The costs of better coordination -- defecting from the status quo -- varies from moderate to lethal. It's not free. There are a lot of people working on coordination though.
- worldsayshi 2y ago
  > There are a lot of people working on coordination though Where? Genuinely curious.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Where? Genuinely curious Thiel, for one.
    - worldsayshi 2y ago
      Thiel is the one trying to collapse the government and bring about techno feudal ancap where him and his cronies own everything in a butterfly revolution no?
psadauskas 2y ago
Because the people who can coordinate this are working 9-5 jobs, (or 2 or 3 minimum wage gigs), have families and/or kids, and don't have a whole lot of time or energy to organize when so much of it goes towards surviving. Or have a lot to lose by rocking the boat. Vs the rich people, who can set aside a million, or ten million, or whatever, and pay people to propagandize on their behalf. A million bucks a year can pay 10 people to work full time and go on cable news programs to be "interviewed", or write think pieces in newspapers, or spread misinformation on social media. And yeah, its defeatist. I don't know how we overcome this until people are fed up enough to prioritize it, and are willing to stick their necks out.
- worldsayshi 2y ago
  > don't have a whole lot of time or energy I get this but I'm not really talking about making sacrifices or having people who don't have time spending a lot of it. I'm just wondering why not even those that seem to have a lot of time and mental fortitude seem to discuss or be able to come up with alternative ideas that people pick up and can work with.

darth_avocado 2y ago

Too many people don’t learn from history. Especially the Rich. There was a very popular thing the French did when things got out of hand. And they were not the only only to do it throughout the history.

nazgulsenpai 2y ago
How quickly do you think those people would be declared terrorists and neutralized in 2025?
- dingnuts 2y ago
  why dont you tell us, nazgulsenpai? I mean why bother resist against a tyrannical government right? sheesh. Relevant username.
  - nazgulsenpai 2y ago
    I'm not sure what my username has to do with anything, or why the combative tone. It's intended as a thought exercise, if a revolution in the spirit of the French revolution were to happen today, with the surveillance at the government's disposal, how quickly would it be justified legally (declared terrorists) and neutralized. The more time passes, the more technological advances are used for mass surveillance and propaganda, the less likely it seems.
    - metalman 2y ago
      there is a presumption on your part, that control of the net, is absolute revolutions of the past,have all included some control of the press and we can see, everywhere, the frantic efforts to control the net, and digital currency the old axiom of "control the press and the mint, and they can have the rest" is now bieng put to the test, internaly and externaly. the truth bieng that the level of control now possible, real realy realy, is cramping everybodys style, and so the forms of protest and revolution are evolving, and matching the wierdness, insanity for insanity, there IS absolute control , but there is no sure way to describe what exactly is bieng controlled, no revolutionary symbols,check no calls to kill the leaders,check billions of worky workers, worky working, check, trillions of hours spent grinding out an entirely new and evolving memetic language of comunication in a vast never ending seathing quest for some meaning, uh huh.

torginus 2y ago

This is a bit of an aside but why is this rich-bashing so endemic to modern Western society, even at the highest levels? To be clear I'm not asking if the rich are evil or not, I am asking why are there movies with hundred-million dollar budgets, whose entire message is that the 'rich are evil'? Why are there leftist newspapers 'fighting for the little guy', staffed by 1%ers, and owned by billionaires? Why is the cookie cutter young adult dystopia book, sold by the millions, about a bunch of poor kids in a dystopian capitalist society? None of this shit makes sense to me.

AlotOfReading 2y ago
Consider the pervasive narratives those people are reacting to: that people who are wealthy/powerful are better humans. Being poor is often seen as a moral failing, whereas people who are wealthy are attractive, intelligent people. In some cases, "better" is even meant literally, like this well-known, only partly tongue-in-cheek new Yorker article (https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/rich-people-really-are-better https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/rich-people-rea...) or the British class system. You're only questioning one half of these ideas.
- argentinian 2y ago
  Where do you observe the promotion of the absurd narrative that says that the rich are better humans?
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    Well, you could look at the examples provided, any of various historical (and modern) class systems, great man theory, do a quick search (e.g. https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/05/08/new-psychological-studies-how-the-wealthy-really-are-different-from-everyone-else/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/05/08/new-...), read self-help literature (e.g. rich dad, poor dad), and so on. It might be harder to find media where that narrative isn't either present or intentionally absent. And just because something is present doesn't mean it's an intentional or complete narrative being promoted by the author. This is simply an idea that's virtually omnipresent in Western societies, like the acceptance of capitalism or the system of colors. Things that challenge these sorts of deeply assumed ideas often seem like attacks on society itself. If you want an author who intentionally addresses it, Ursula Guin has made it a big focus of her works (e.g. Omelas, the hainish cycle).

immibis 2y ago

They are only rich because we value what they have. What's the difference between a US dollar and a square of toilet paper? One is more rectangular and has a guy's face printed on it.