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The working class in America (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections, which is strange considering they live in the wealt

The working class in America (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections, which is strange considering they live in the wealthiest country in the world while also being the most unprotected among Western democracies. Social protections are something that not even conservative parties in Europe can challenge (at least for now, we’ll see if the US trend spreads there though). As a European who has spent a decade in the US and has always had a speech for expanding the social safety net (and, BTW, I’m on the fortunate side of US society), it seems impossible to me that some people will ever understand this, especially and shockingly, those who need it the most.

close04 2y ago
> (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections They are already in a weak social position and were taught that asking for any kind of protection or assistance is a bad thing. The last thing you want when society is already looking down on you is give more reasons for it.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> working class in America (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections A lot of social protections for them were shams. Worker retraining after signing NAFTA, for example. Unions that turn into hereditary job pools outsiders can’t break into. Hell, public-school taxes for universities they can’t afford because their public-school teachers couldn’t teach their kids math.
- danans 2y ago
  But many other social protections - the comparatively huge ones - are ones that workers value a lot: Unemployment Insurance, Disability benefits, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. But unfortunately many workers have taken those as a given and therefore untouchable, rather than a societal choice.
- jmull 2y ago
  I don't really know how to tell you this delicately, but you're in an information bubble. If you have to go reaching back 30 years to a jobs program for an example of a sham social protection program, they are probably in great shape (a jobs training program isn't even really a social protection). I know some unions have nepotism problems with jobs in the union (which is different than union jobs). I wonder if they are particularly worse than other political arenas though, where many value loyalty and control more than merit. And, of course, unions are not social protection programs. They are a response to the lack of social protections. School funding isn't even tangentially related to social protections.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    I’m relating what I hear from Trump voters. > School funding isn't even tangentially related to social protections It’s a benefit paid for collectively. It’s not a social protection, but it’s definitely a social programme. You’re seeing the DoE attacked in the same swipe as Medicaid because they’re political similar to the right.
guyzero 2y ago
Poverty in America is a moral failure and why would you give money to people who are immoral?
- 9283409232 2y ago
  This is the center of every issue in America that people need to understand. Poverty is seen as personal failure. You were lazy or a bad person thus you are poor. By that token, the rich are moral, just, and what we should aspire to be. But the biggest Trump supporters are the biggest consumers of welfare and social services, how can that be? It's not their fault! It's the blacks,immigrants,gays,trans,dems and whatever boogeyman we need that are causing their suffering. Vote for us and we'll solve that and you too can be rich and powerful.
  - sepositus 2y ago
    I have some extended family members who have never worked a day in their lives by exploiting social services. Not surprisingly, their (now grown) children are doing the same thing. I don't judge people using it, nor do I consider it a purely moral issue, but I'm also not going to adopt a black-and-white view and just pretend this sort of stuff doesn't happen.
    - 9283409232 2y ago
      No one is saying it doesn't happen so I don't see what the point in your statement is.
      - sepositus 2y ago
        I was picking up on the context of poverty, social services, and morality. In some cases, people end up in poverty due to laziness and an unwillingness to work. They then choose to (in my mind) misappropriate social service funds to maintain that lifestyle. While I generally agree we shouldn't look at all poverty from this lens, I'm simply pointing out that in some cases it's warranted.
dworkr 2y ago
[dead]
duped 2y ago
> it seems impossible to me that some people will ever understand this, especially and shockingly, those who need it the most. After many years of denying it, I've come to the realization that to solve social welfare in the United States we need to first solve racism and religion. So I agree it seems impossible.
- UtopiaPunk 2y ago
  What do you mean when you say we need to "solve religion?" I don't mean my question to come across as combative or challenging, I just don't understand what you have in mind.
  - nh23423fefe 2y ago
    Some 12yos think Jesus is just like Santa. They think this amazing analogy exposes all of society to be idiots. Everyone else is indoctrinated. But not them.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - duped 2y ago
    What I mean is we have issues with racial/ethnic/religious tolerance in the United States, and it's impossible to divorce politics from it. When it comes to social programs, the lines of support of/opposition to policy can be drawn pretty cleanly around identity. We can't "solve" social problems with welfare unless we "solve" the problem of identity, where we can't even agree whether its the role of government to provide (or just fund!) services if there's a large group of people who believe such support is an attack on their ethnic identity, or something they have a religious opposition to.
  - marssaxman 2y ago
    There is a significant minority of conservative religious people in the US who see any kind of government-provided social-welfare benefit program as an unwelcome infringement on the proper domain of the church.
breadwinner 2y ago
> The working class in America (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections It is not that they are opposed to social protections. It is just that the Republican party has succeeded in distracting them with more important topics: Guns and Jesus.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > the Republican party has succeeded in distracting them with more important topics: Guns and Jesus Trump voters were not significantly moved by these sells. The pushes were immigration and anti-wokeness, the latter intentionally ambiguously defined. (Compare Graham’s earlier works to this self-congratulatory nonsense [1].) [1] https://paulgraham.com/woke.html https://paulgraham.com/woke.html
  - breadwinner 2y ago
    If you want to generalize across multiple election, GOP shifts their focus to the "values and cultural issues" of the moment, to get working-class Americans to vote against their own self-interest. In the past, it was gay marriage and abortion; today, it's trans kids and DEI. Once these issues dominate the conversation, little attention is paid to the real priorities and actions of GOP and the Billionaires that bankroll them: cutting funds to Medicaid, food stamps and other welfare programs, cuts to health insurance subsidies, cuts to education, cuts to medical research funding, cuts to development assistance to the poorest in the world and so on, all to fund tax cuts for the wealthy.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I think that's a one-way analysis excluding the Democrats, who also pivot to these issues. Democrats have agency as well, and the ability to prioritize bread and butter issues over things like DEI or trans issues. I think their self-image as defenders of the vulnerable binds them to positions that are generally unpopular, and the GOP exploits this. I think both parties suffer from a form of oppositional defiant disorder, where they have to stake out opposite claims. If one party says the sky is blue, the other has to disagree.
washadjeffmad 2y ago
There's certainly a cultural element that a certain sector of society has been enabling to prey on. That's why Bernie Sanders was so important; for the first time, someone was telling all of these struggling workers that they weren't the problem and didn't have to be ashamed.
epicureanideal 2y ago
> The working class in America (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections Probably because we stopped distinguishing between the hard working poor and the indolent poor, among other reasons. Nobody trusts the government not to throw the money away giving it to their friends who administer NGOs, or staff up huge offices of administrators, or give it away to encourage lifestyles the majority disapprove of strongly enough that they’re willing to go without themselves to prevent it.
from-nibly 2y ago
I think a lot of people are just opposed to the proposed solutions. They don't decrease poverty. They increase dependence on the government, and they are funded by money that is taken from you at gun point.
- instaclay 2y ago
  Hot take. I for one, am, and will always be, forever grateful for government cheese.
  - from-nibly 2y ago
    Stuffed crust pizza is a heck of a drug.

close04 2y ago

> (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections They are already in a weak social position and were taught that asking for any kind of protection or assistance is a bad thing. The last thing you want when society is already looking down on you is give more reasons for it.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> working class in America (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections A lot of social protections for them were shams. Worker retraining after signing NAFTA, for example. Unions that turn into hereditary job pools outsiders can’t break into. Hell, public-school taxes for universities they can’t afford because their public-school teachers couldn’t teach their kids math.

danans 2y ago
But many other social protections - the comparatively huge ones - are ones that workers value a lot: Unemployment Insurance, Disability benefits, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. But unfortunately many workers have taken those as a given and therefore untouchable, rather than a societal choice.
jmull 2y ago
I don't really know how to tell you this delicately, but you're in an information bubble. If you have to go reaching back 30 years to a jobs program for an example of a sham social protection program, they are probably in great shape (a jobs training program isn't even really a social protection). I know some unions have nepotism problems with jobs in the union (which is different than union jobs). I wonder if they are particularly worse than other political arenas though, where many value loyalty and control more than merit. And, of course, unions are not social protection programs. They are a response to the lack of social protections. School funding isn't even tangentially related to social protections.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  I’m relating what I hear from Trump voters. > School funding isn't even tangentially related to social protections It’s a benefit paid for collectively. It’s not a social protection, but it’s definitely a social programme. You’re seeing the DoE attacked in the same swipe as Medicaid because they’re political similar to the right.

guyzero 2y ago

Poverty in America is a moral failure and why would you give money to people who are immoral?

9283409232 2y ago
This is the center of every issue in America that people need to understand. Poverty is seen as personal failure. You were lazy or a bad person thus you are poor. By that token, the rich are moral, just, and what we should aspire to be. But the biggest Trump supporters are the biggest consumers of welfare and social services, how can that be? It's not their fault! It's the blacks,immigrants,gays,trans,dems and whatever boogeyman we need that are causing their suffering. Vote for us and we'll solve that and you too can be rich and powerful.
- sepositus 2y ago
  I have some extended family members who have never worked a day in their lives by exploiting social services. Not surprisingly, their (now grown) children are doing the same thing. I don't judge people using it, nor do I consider it a purely moral issue, but I'm also not going to adopt a black-and-white view and just pretend this sort of stuff doesn't happen.
  - 9283409232 2y ago
    No one is saying it doesn't happen so I don't see what the point in your statement is.
    - sepositus 2y ago
      I was picking up on the context of poverty, social services, and morality. In some cases, people end up in poverty due to laziness and an unwillingness to work. They then choose to (in my mind) misappropriate social service funds to maintain that lifestyle. While I generally agree we shouldn't look at all poverty from this lens, I'm simply pointing out that in some cases it's warranted.

dworkr 2y ago

[dead]

duped 2y ago

> it seems impossible to me that some people will ever understand this, especially and shockingly, those who need it the most. After many years of denying it, I've come to the realization that to solve social welfare in the United States we need to first solve racism and religion. So I agree it seems impossible.

UtopiaPunk 2y ago
What do you mean when you say we need to "solve religion?" I don't mean my question to come across as combative or challenging, I just don't understand what you have in mind.
- nh23423fefe 2y ago
  Some 12yos think Jesus is just like Santa. They think this amazing analogy exposes all of society to be idiots. Everyone else is indoctrinated. But not them.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- duped 2y ago
  What I mean is we have issues with racial/ethnic/religious tolerance in the United States, and it's impossible to divorce politics from it. When it comes to social programs, the lines of support of/opposition to policy can be drawn pretty cleanly around identity. We can't "solve" social problems with welfare unless we "solve" the problem of identity, where we can't even agree whether its the role of government to provide (or just fund!) services if there's a large group of people who believe such support is an attack on their ethnic identity, or something they have a religious opposition to.
- marssaxman 2y ago
  There is a significant minority of conservative religious people in the US who see any kind of government-provided social-welfare benefit program as an unwelcome infringement on the proper domain of the church.

breadwinner 2y ago

> The working class in America (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections It is not that they are opposed to social protections. It is just that the Republican party has succeeded in distracting them with more important topics: Guns and Jesus.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> the Republican party has succeeded in distracting them with more important topics: Guns and Jesus Trump voters were not significantly moved by these sells. The pushes were immigration and anti-wokeness, the latter intentionally ambiguously defined. (Compare Graham’s earlier works to this self-congratulatory nonsense [1].) [1] https://paulgraham.com/woke.html https://paulgraham.com/woke.html
- breadwinner 2y ago
  If you want to generalize across multiple election, GOP shifts their focus to the "values and cultural issues" of the moment, to get working-class Americans to vote against their own self-interest. In the past, it was gay marriage and abortion; today, it's trans kids and DEI. Once these issues dominate the conversation, little attention is paid to the real priorities and actions of GOP and the Billionaires that bankroll them: cutting funds to Medicaid, food stamps and other welfare programs, cuts to health insurance subsidies, cuts to education, cuts to medical research funding, cuts to development assistance to the poorest in the world and so on, all to fund tax cuts for the wealthy.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I think that's a one-way analysis excluding the Democrats, who also pivot to these issues. Democrats have agency as well, and the ability to prioritize bread and butter issues over things like DEI or trans issues. I think their self-image as defenders of the vulnerable binds them to positions that are generally unpopular, and the GOP exploits this. I think both parties suffer from a form of oppositional defiant disorder, where they have to stake out opposite claims. If one party says the sky is blue, the other has to disagree.

washadjeffmad 2y ago

There's certainly a cultural element that a certain sector of society has been enabling to prey on. That's why Bernie Sanders was so important; for the first time, someone was telling all of these struggling workers that they weren't the problem and didn't have to be ashamed.

epicureanideal 2y ago

> The working class in America (specifically the lower segment) is surprisingly opposed to social protections Probably because we stopped distinguishing between the hard working poor and the indolent poor, among other reasons. Nobody trusts the government not to throw the money away giving it to their friends who administer NGOs, or staff up huge offices of administrators, or give it away to encourage lifestyles the majority disapprove of strongly enough that they’re willing to go without themselves to prevent it.

from-nibly 2y ago

I think a lot of people are just opposed to the proposed solutions. They don't decrease poverty. They increase dependence on the government, and they are funded by money that is taken from you at gun point.

instaclay 2y ago
Hot take. I for one, am, and will always be, forever grateful for government cheese.
- from-nibly 2y ago
  Stuffed crust pizza is a heck of a drug.