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Slightly off-topic but it's related to wolves. My parents' neighbours have a huge number of goats in their property. It really is in the middle of nowhere Nort

Slightly off-topic but it's related to wolves. My parents' neighbours have a huge number of goats in their property. It really is in the middle of nowhere Northern Portugal and for decades everyone always said "oh the wolves are gone, they used to be such a menace to our animals but not anymore. Barely any need for guard dogs". However, there is a small (200~300) population of wolves and since Covid it seems they got less scared of people, or more brave and desperate because the intense forest fires have ravaged their turf. Last year they attacked the goats and killed dozens of them. It was, according to my dad, one of the goriest things he ever saw. Guess what, the guard dogs are back, nobody says it's all a thing in the past. On one hand it's great news that wolves are making a comeback but there's always the other side.

loandbehold 2y ago
Is your parents' property fenced off? How does using guard dogs compare to having an electric fence?
- world2vec 2y ago
  My parent's neighbours, they're not my parents' goats (they only have a few to keep their property clean). The neighbours have a big piece of land and electrifying the fences would be quite expensive, the guard dogs seem to be doing their jobs quite well, no attacks since then.
- kaikai 2y ago
  I have livestock in an area with mountain lions, bears, and coyotes. There’s no fence that I could build that will reliably keep out a mountain lion, because they can jump very high and climb trees. Electrified fences with a high enough hot line will keep out coyotes and bears, but no one I know fences entire pastures that way. It would be very expensive and require a lot of maintenance. Livestock Guardian Dogs bred to protect livestock will do a much better job of scaring off and fighting predators. They’re specific breeds like Anatolians and Maremmas, not regular farm dogs.
incompleteCode 2y ago
What’s the alternative here? No wolves and less biodiversity? That’s detrimental in the long-term. The real issue here seems to be the forest fires that disturbed the wolves’ equilibrium.
- world2vec 2y ago
  I think it's good they're prospering! Was just telling an anecdote. Guard dogs and better fences seem to be working, they never had another attack since then.
- draven 2y ago
  All solutions are compromises. For example here in France: Wolves ? You have to get guardian dogs (a requirement to get compensated for attacks), accept that a part of your herd will be killed each year (disrupting the dynamic of the herd I've been told) and getting a small compensation. Guardian dogs cause problems with hikers. Someone I know had her dog killed, and I hate having 3 or 4 of them barking around me until I get far from a herd. They aren't that many incidents but it's always a stressful situation. No wolves? You rely on hunters to regulate the population of some species (chamois, alpine ibex, etc.) People against the reintroduction of wolves seem to see proponents as city dwellers with no experience of the real world, and proponents seem to see people against it as retrograde.
bpodgursky 2y ago
As someone with young kids... I want to be a free-range parent to the extent possible, but I'm not going to let my kids wander around in the forest if there are wolf packs loose in the area. This worked well in 1950s Britain because they had exterminated all large predators! Let's be real about that. For most of human history, nature was deadly.
- world2vec 2y ago
  To be honest, that area is very hilly and rough. Even without wolf packs loitering around I wouldn't recommend young kids wandering by themselves outside of the fenced areas.
- tinyplanets 2y ago
  There have been a small number of cases where wolves attack humans, but the majority of attacks that do occur generally prey on cattle or sheep. With fencing and guard dogs, an equilibrium can be reached. Maybe have you kids wander with a protective dog. I don't want to see us continually destroy and suppress biodiversity because it's inconvenient for us.
  - bpodgursky 2y ago
    There have been a small number of cases where wolves attack humans because 1. Humans have spent centuries exterminating wolves anywhere humans regularly go. 2. Humans adapt their behavior to minimize the risk of attack by wild predators. This is like saying "relatively few people get mugged wandering around alone in the tenderloin at 3am". It's because everyone knows it's a terrible idea and avoids doing so. That doesn't make the area safe.
    - barbazoo 2y ago
      Let’s put it into perspective. How many people get attacked by dogs vs wolves?
      - themaninthedark 2y ago
whyenot 2y ago
I live in the SF Bay Area (Los Altos Hills). My neighbor used to raise miniature goats. A few years ago a mountain lion got into the goat pasture and killed all the goats. It was pretty gory. On the other hand, it seems like the mountain lions (and coyotes) are doing a pretty good job bringing down the local deer population. I wish they would also start eating the non-native wild turkeys that have migrated into my area over the past 5 years or so.

loandbehold 2y ago

Is your parents' property fenced off? How does using guard dogs compare to having an electric fence?

world2vec 2y ago
My parent's neighbours, they're not my parents' goats (they only have a few to keep their property clean). The neighbours have a big piece of land and electrifying the fences would be quite expensive, the guard dogs seem to be doing their jobs quite well, no attacks since then.
kaikai 2y ago
I have livestock in an area with mountain lions, bears, and coyotes. There’s no fence that I could build that will reliably keep out a mountain lion, because they can jump very high and climb trees. Electrified fences with a high enough hot line will keep out coyotes and bears, but no one I know fences entire pastures that way. It would be very expensive and require a lot of maintenance. Livestock Guardian Dogs bred to protect livestock will do a much better job of scaring off and fighting predators. They’re specific breeds like Anatolians and Maremmas, not regular farm dogs.

incompleteCode 2y ago

What’s the alternative here? No wolves and less biodiversity? That’s detrimental in the long-term. The real issue here seems to be the forest fires that disturbed the wolves’ equilibrium.

world2vec 2y ago
I think it's good they're prospering! Was just telling an anecdote. Guard dogs and better fences seem to be working, they never had another attack since then.
draven 2y ago
All solutions are compromises. For example here in France: Wolves ? You have to get guardian dogs (a requirement to get compensated for attacks), accept that a part of your herd will be killed each year (disrupting the dynamic of the herd I've been told) and getting a small compensation. Guardian dogs cause problems with hikers. Someone I know had her dog killed, and I hate having 3 or 4 of them barking around me until I get far from a herd. They aren't that many incidents but it's always a stressful situation. No wolves? You rely on hunters to regulate the population of some species (chamois, alpine ibex, etc.) People against the reintroduction of wolves seem to see proponents as city dwellers with no experience of the real world, and proponents seem to see people against it as retrograde.

bpodgursky 2y ago

As someone with young kids... I want to be a free-range parent to the extent possible, but I'm not going to let my kids wander around in the forest if there are wolf packs loose in the area. This worked well in 1950s Britain because they had exterminated all large predators! Let's be real about that. For most of human history, nature was deadly.

world2vec 2y ago
To be honest, that area is very hilly and rough. Even without wolf packs loitering around I wouldn't recommend young kids wandering by themselves outside of the fenced areas.
tinyplanets 2y ago
There have been a small number of cases where wolves attack humans, but the majority of attacks that do occur generally prey on cattle or sheep. With fencing and guard dogs, an equilibrium can be reached. Maybe have you kids wander with a protective dog. I don't want to see us continually destroy and suppress biodiversity because it's inconvenient for us.
- bpodgursky 2y ago
  There have been a small number of cases where wolves attack humans because 1. Humans have spent centuries exterminating wolves anywhere humans regularly go. 2. Humans adapt their behavior to minimize the risk of attack by wild predators. This is like saying "relatively few people get mugged wandering around alone in the tenderloin at 3am". It's because everyone knows it's a terrible idea and avoids doing so. That doesn't make the area safe.
  - barbazoo 2y ago
    Let’s put it into perspective. How many people get attacked by dogs vs wolves?
    - themaninthedark 2y ago

whyenot 2y ago

I live in the SF Bay Area (Los Altos Hills). My neighbor used to raise miniature goats. A few years ago a mountain lion got into the goat pasture and killed all the goats. It was pretty gory. On the other hand, it seems like the mountain lions (and coyotes) are doing a pretty good job bringing down the local deer population. I wish they would also start eating the non-native wild turkeys that have migrated into my area over the past 5 years or so.