8 ms·

I still would like to know what Valve and Blizzard have encountered with Win8 that makes it trouble. I have not had any problems with Steam and WoW. Maybe they

by hxf148 14y ago

I still would like to know what Valve and Blizzard have encountered with Win8 that makes it trouble. I have not had any problems with Steam and WoW. Maybe they do mean drivers though..

__alexs 14y ago
The VentureBeat interview [1] makes it look like gaben is referring to the changes in app ecosystem (eg. integrated Windows Store with 30% margins) rather than a specific technical problem. Although I suspect a major games studio coming to Linux might also enjoy the ability to poke around the source for the few graphics drivers which are open. 1. http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/valves-gabe-newell-talks/ http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/valves-gabe-newell-talks/
- cageface 14y ago
  Seems likely. I think Apple only got away with the shift to the Mac App store because the market for third-party Mac software is minuscule compared to that of Windows and includes a lot of smaller devs for whom relinquishing control of sales and distribution is as much a blessing as a liability. On Windows big players like Valve are going to be less willing to play sharecropper.
  - scott_w 14y ago
    I believe that OS X doesn't prevent you installing your own "App Store", so you can get Steam on OS X.
    - freehunter 14y ago
      Windows 8 doesn't prevent you from installing Steam, either. I'm running it right now on the Release Preview. Windows RT does, but that's like comparing OSX to the iPad.
      - Dylan16807 14y ago
        That's because Steam isn't a Windows 8 program. If you want to use Metro you have to go through the App Store.
        freehunter 14y ago
        Steam is a Windows 8 program. It's not a WinRT program. Steam works perfectly in Windows 8. The point I was making is that Steam doesn't work on Microsoft ARM tablets powered by Windows RT, but that shouldn't be a big surprise considering no desktop software works on ARM computers without being recompiled for that platform. It's no different than OSX vs iOS.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        You're ignoring WinRT on x86. This is where people are upset about Microsoft's sudden monopolizing. I don't consider it a true 'Windows 8' app if it's tucked away in the legacy desktop.
        freehunter 14y ago
        You're technically correct, but you're really just splitting hairs. If it runs on Windows 8, it's a Windows 8 program. Windows 8 was designed to run both desktop and Metro applications. We're not talking XP Mode from Windows 7 here.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        The desktop is even more segregated from metro than XP mode was (since you had the seamless option for XP mode). As far as I can tell the point of Windows 8 is Metro and everything related, so I don't feel like it's splitting hairs to focus on it. If you want to get in on that new Windows 8 touchable tiled wonderful candy unavoidable primary interface you have to play by microsoft's app store rules. Edit: haha I wonder if this article is true about microsoft abandoning 'metro' in favor of 'windows 8-style ui' Seems relevant.
- marcusf 14y ago
  I would imagine all major gaming engine companies already have source code deals with the graphics card vendors, and vice versa. It's the kinda thing where everybody wants compatibility with each other and it wouldn't make sense not to share it.
- 89a 14y ago
  Does the Steam store not have margins?
neya 14y ago
Yep, most probably. For ex: I have had audiophile-grade sound quality differences in Linux (Ubuntu 10.04) and Windows (Windows 7) due to the drivers [1]. [1]Dual boot on a Sony Vaio FZ-21S, with onboard ASIO chipset, headphones - Pioneer SE-A1000 (Equivalent to a Sennheisser HD - 595) with no equalizers.
- shin_lao 14y ago
  The only way to make "audiophile-grade" comparisons is through blind tests in an appropriate room. I'd just like to point out that you'll have more variations in your sound by just turning the mini-jack connector than by modifying any driver, who do nothing more than copying a stream of digital audio into the buffer of the sound card to be sent to the DAC. The only area where I've seen changes caused by drivers is on latency, a latency that matters only in a creative context.
  - neya 14y ago
    Hmmm, maybe..I suspect it could be something to do with the ASIO drivers, because there is some "spatial-ness" enabled when I use Linux instead of Windows for such stuff. To verify this, I tried playing a FLAC ripped directly from an Audio CD I had @ 1140kbps approx. and I'm not sure how to put it, but I can confirm there was a "spatial-ness" and more instrument-level distinguish-ability while on Linux. Maybe its specific to just this laptop? Who knows...
    - cageface 14y ago
      These kinds of things can be surprisingly subjective. An audio driver in this case shouldn't be doing much more than shoveling bytes into a device buffer.
      - vacri 14y ago
        An example of expectations shaping opinion in audio: I remember walking into a small upmarket shopping mall and thinking "wow, the sound system in here is amazing - it sounds just like there's an actual piano being played". I turned the corner, and there was a pianist on a baby grand...
mrich 14y ago
Maybe the new app store, which may drive down their profits from steam a little ;)
cabirum 14y ago
DPC Latency maybe? http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en/w8itproperf/thread/aa16c25a-9c72-4579-ba02-cea920296271 http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en/w8itproperf/th... Other than that, it's just valve making linux version of steam and tries to promote it.
mtgx 14y ago
Windows 8 is a change in direction for the Windows app ecosystem and for the user interface as well. Valve games make a lot less sense on a touch interface, and they worry that's where Microsoft is quickly heading - to a Metro-only future. A future where everything also has to come through the app store. No matter what kind of company you are, whether a software or hardware one, if you're doing "well" in the current/status quo Windows environment, then Windows 8 is a threat to you, because it will change a lot of things, and most likely for the worse for regular "PC-oriented" companies.
foobarian 14y ago
In their one test app they observed FPS values of 315 on Linux, and 303.4 on Windows. This seems small enough that it's a stretch to call it "trouble" on Windows--probably wouldn't even notice it.
- vacri 14y ago
  Given that screens physically refresh at 60Hz these days, you definitely wouldn't notice it. High FPS numbers are useful as a guide to efficiency, not subjective experience.
  - zokier 14y ago
    120Hz if we are talking about gaming screens.
  - exDM69 14y ago
    > High FPS numbers are useful as a guide to efficiency, not subjective experience. Not really. FPS readings >= monitor refresh rate give skewed results that may not reflect the actual performance. Despite this, it's still used widely in performance benchmarks. FPS is the new MIPS.
- mtgx 14y ago
  303 in OpenGL on Windows. 270 in DirectX.
forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
Oh, I don't know... Maybe it has something to do with the Microsoft App Store and MS being the gatekeeper that decides if an app runs or not there. Oh, and by the way getting 30% cut of the price of the software, all software a la Apple.
biirdmaan 14y ago
I don't think it has anything to do with the OS itself. At least not in a "oh well now making games for Windows is 50 times harder!" way. It's mostly a disagreement with MS's push for an Apple-like app store for a DESKTOP OS.

by hxf148 14y ago

I still would like to know what Valve and Blizzard have encountered with Win8 that makes it trouble. I have not had any problems with Steam and WoW. Maybe they do mean drivers though..

__alexs 14y ago

The VentureBeat interview [1] makes it look like gaben is referring to the changes in app ecosystem (eg. integrated Windows Store with 30% margins) rather than a specific technical problem. Although I suspect a major games studio coming to Linux might also enjoy the ability to poke around the source for the few graphics drivers which are open. 1. http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/valves-gabe-newell-talks/ http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/valves-gabe-newell-talks/

cageface 14y ago
Seems likely. I think Apple only got away with the shift to the Mac App store because the market for third-party Mac software is minuscule compared to that of Windows and includes a lot of smaller devs for whom relinquishing control of sales and distribution is as much a blessing as a liability. On Windows big players like Valve are going to be less willing to play sharecropper.
- scott_w 14y ago
  I believe that OS X doesn't prevent you installing your own "App Store", so you can get Steam on OS X.
  - freehunter 14y ago
    Windows 8 doesn't prevent you from installing Steam, either. I'm running it right now on the Release Preview. Windows RT does, but that's like comparing OSX to the iPad.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      That's because Steam isn't a Windows 8 program. If you want to use Metro you have to go through the App Store.
      - freehunter 14y ago
        Steam is a Windows 8 program. It's not a WinRT program. Steam works perfectly in Windows 8. The point I was making is that Steam doesn't work on Microsoft ARM tablets powered by Windows RT, but that shouldn't be a big surprise considering no desktop software works on ARM computers without being recompiled for that platform. It's no different than OSX vs iOS.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        You're ignoring WinRT on x86. This is where people are upset about Microsoft's sudden monopolizing. I don't consider it a true 'Windows 8' app if it's tucked away in the legacy desktop.
        freehunter 14y ago
        You're technically correct, but you're really just splitting hairs. If it runs on Windows 8, it's a Windows 8 program. Windows 8 was designed to run both desktop and Metro applications. We're not talking XP Mode from Windows 7 here.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        The desktop is even more segregated from metro than XP mode was (since you had the seamless option for XP mode). As far as I can tell the point of Windows 8 is Metro and everything related, so I don't feel like it's splitting hairs to focus on it. If you want to get in on that new Windows 8 touchable tiled wonderful candy unavoidable primary interface you have to play by microsoft's app store rules. Edit: haha I wonder if this article is true about microsoft abandoning 'metro' in favor of 'windows 8-style ui' Seems relevant.
marcusf 14y ago
I would imagine all major gaming engine companies already have source code deals with the graphics card vendors, and vice versa. It's the kinda thing where everybody wants compatibility with each other and it wouldn't make sense not to share it.
89a 14y ago
Does the Steam store not have margins?

neya 14y ago

Yep, most probably. For ex: I have had audiophile-grade sound quality differences in Linux (Ubuntu 10.04) and Windows (Windows 7) due to the drivers [1]. [1]Dual boot on a Sony Vaio FZ-21S, with onboard ASIO chipset, headphones - Pioneer SE-A1000 (Equivalent to a Sennheisser HD - 595) with no equalizers.

shin_lao 14y ago
The only way to make "audiophile-grade" comparisons is through blind tests in an appropriate room. I'd just like to point out that you'll have more variations in your sound by just turning the mini-jack connector than by modifying any driver, who do nothing more than copying a stream of digital audio into the buffer of the sound card to be sent to the DAC. The only area where I've seen changes caused by drivers is on latency, a latency that matters only in a creative context.
- neya 14y ago
  Hmmm, maybe..I suspect it could be something to do with the ASIO drivers, because there is some "spatial-ness" enabled when I use Linux instead of Windows for such stuff. To verify this, I tried playing a FLAC ripped directly from an Audio CD I had @ 1140kbps approx. and I'm not sure how to put it, but I can confirm there was a "spatial-ness" and more instrument-level distinguish-ability while on Linux. Maybe its specific to just this laptop? Who knows...
  - cageface 14y ago
    These kinds of things can be surprisingly subjective. An audio driver in this case shouldn't be doing much more than shoveling bytes into a device buffer.
    - vacri 14y ago
      An example of expectations shaping opinion in audio: I remember walking into a small upmarket shopping mall and thinking "wow, the sound system in here is amazing - it sounds just like there's an actual piano being played". I turned the corner, and there was a pianist on a baby grand...

mrich 14y ago

Maybe the new app store, which may drive down their profits from steam a little ;)

cabirum 14y ago

DPC Latency maybe? http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en/w8itproperf/thread/aa16c25a-9c72-4579-ba02-cea920296271 http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en/w8itproperf/th... Other than that, it's just valve making linux version of steam and tries to promote it.

mtgx 14y ago

Windows 8 is a change in direction for the Windows app ecosystem and for the user interface as well. Valve games make a lot less sense on a touch interface, and they worry that's where Microsoft is quickly heading - to a Metro-only future. A future where everything also has to come through the app store. No matter what kind of company you are, whether a software or hardware one, if you're doing "well" in the current/status quo Windows environment, then Windows 8 is a threat to you, because it will change a lot of things, and most likely for the worse for regular "PC-oriented" companies.

foobarian 14y ago

In their one test app they observed FPS values of 315 on Linux, and 303.4 on Windows. This seems small enough that it's a stretch to call it "trouble" on Windows--probably wouldn't even notice it.

vacri 14y ago
Given that screens physically refresh at 60Hz these days, you definitely wouldn't notice it. High FPS numbers are useful as a guide to efficiency, not subjective experience.
- zokier 14y ago
  120Hz if we are talking about gaming screens.
- exDM69 14y ago
  > High FPS numbers are useful as a guide to efficiency, not subjective experience. Not really. FPS readings >= monitor refresh rate give skewed results that may not reflect the actual performance. Despite this, it's still used widely in performance benchmarks. FPS is the new MIPS.
mtgx 14y ago
303 in OpenGL on Windows. 270 in DirectX.

forgottenpaswrd 14y ago

Oh, I don't know... Maybe it has something to do with the Microsoft App Store and MS being the gatekeeper that decides if an app runs or not there. Oh, and by the way getting 30% cut of the price of the software, all software a la Apple.

biirdmaan 14y ago

I don't think it has anything to do with the OS itself. At least not in a "oh well now making games for Windows is 50 times harder!" way. It's mostly a disagreement with MS's push for an Apple-like app store for a DESKTOP OS.