7 ms·

Not every european company embodies european values. As an example, Signal is listed as a US company people might want a european replacement for – and yet Sign

by zoul 2y ago

Not every european company embodies european values. As an example, Signal is listed as a US company people might want a european replacement for – and yet Signal represents european values much better than many of the alternatives.

c03 2y ago
This is a great point where nationality does not reflect political values. Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, put into words, shared and progressed, it would have much greater value to a consumer and the world than merely going back to nationalism and protectionism.
- a12k 2y ago
  > Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. I can’t speak for Russia because I have no data, but most Americans don’t carry the opinion of this government.
  - Goto80 2y ago
    If that is the case, how did this government get a majority?
    - atwrk 2y ago
      Voter suppression: https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/ https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/
    - re-thc 2y ago
      > how did this government get a majority? That's not what people voted for (agreeing with the government). They were given choices and to pick what they felt they preferred.
      - ajuc 2y ago
        People have choosen to believe obvious lies because they wanted them to be true, not because they thought they were true. It's as much their fault as the politicians who lied to them.
        re-thc 2y ago
        > because they wanted them to be true This assumes they even know what the truth is. We have discovered that a lot of people don't know how tariffs work for example.
        ajuc 2y ago
        They know enough to understand which way should their ignorance be pointed to support their worldview. I've seen this countless times, I'm from eastern Poland, we had our own MAGA ruling for 8 years, and eastern Poland is where most of their voters come from. When it benefits these people - they understand enough to know what the mainstream opinion is and they don't oppose it. When it does not support their worldview - they suddenly stop believing the experts or forget what the expert opinion is. Ignorance is not the root cause. It's a protection mechanism. It's fascinating to watch at first, but after 8 years of this I'm just tired.
        re-thc 2y ago
        > They know enough to understand which way should their ignorance be pointed to support their worldview. Again, you assume or are you god? Did you mind read everyone? Otherwise there's no way to really tell. Are the votes public? What people say might not be what they vote for. > I've seen this countless times As in you've looked at everyone in existence? > Ignorance is not the root cause. It's a protection mechanism. Again how do you draw this conclusion that 100% or at least >70% are like this. It's like you decide for them. So even if they're ignorant you're going to rule otherwise. > It's fascinating to watch at first This is worse than stereotyping. What's fascinating is listening to your reply.
    - greedylizard 2y ago
      The electoral college rigs the game. If one person equaled one vote, American government could look significantly different right now.
      - walls 2y ago
        It would still have trump at the head of it.
        alistairSH 2y ago
        Trump might be in the WH, but Congress would possibly not be controlled by the GOP.
        tacticalturtle 2y ago
        In a world without an electoral college, I’m not sure you can say this. Almost every state is winner take all in electoral votes. I suspect there are a lot of discouraged voters who don’t vote, because they live in states where their opinion is overrun by the political slant of the state’s majority. In a direct popular vote, their vote counts a lot more.
      - philistine 2y ago
        Those are sufficient excuses that prevent countries from signing free trade deals with other nations: we don't trust the health of your political system to sign a free trade deal with your nation.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      A mixture of things. Dishonesty — which is broader than just "lying" — for one. One of Trump's talking points during the election was "never started a war", and now: https://theconversation.com/trumps-threats-on-greenland-gaza-ukraine-and-panama-revive-old-school-us-imperialism-of-dominating-other-nations-by-force-after-decades-of-nuclear-deterrence-249327 https://theconversation.com/trumps-threats-on-greenland-gaza... But also, people can change their minds between elections: https://eu.providencejournal.com/story/news/politics/2025/03/05/what-is-trumps-approval-rating-heres-what-the-latest-polls-show/81571173007/ https://eu.providencejournal.com/story/news/politics/2025/03...
    - alistairSH 2y ago
      Trump won 49.x% of the vote. But the US doesn’t have direct presidential elections. It has an archaic, anti-democratic system called the Electoral College, which grants land in Wyoming greater relative weight than people in Texas.
      - ryandrake 2y ago
        Don't forget: Only about 2/3 of eligible voters voted. So those 1/3 who didn't vote, effectively voted for (or at the very least, condoned) the winner. They didn't physically vote, but by not-voting, they are literally saying "I'm OK with whoever wins."
    - DougN7 2y ago
      A huge number felt they had to vote for the lesser of two bad choices. I think many that voted for Trump were naive and are genuinely surprised at what they are seeing. At least I’d like to think so, despite what you might find on forums.
    - anal_reactor 2y ago
      It did because that's exactly what people want, it's just that many people will tell you otherwise because they live in an information bubble and cannot believe that there exists voters outside of their bubble.
      - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        Same with opinions on HN. People here don't realize they're in a bubble and their opinions aren't representative for the masses. If you tell them that you get downvoted and flagged.
        croniev 2y ago
        I'm sorry but it sounds like you were trying to spread conspiracy theories, the way you are putting it. Do you have some examples?
        fsflover 2y ago
        Maybe something like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43068557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43068557 and this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43264608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43264608
    - ajuc 2y ago
      They don't support imperialism, but they also don't care enough to be against imperialism. They care about egg prices or their favorite culture wars more than about people dying elsewhere. It's egoism, simple as that.
      - consteval 2y ago
        I think it’s more complicated - this feels like a psychology and biology issue. Those things are naturally closer to them which then means they generate stronger emotions. Just intuitively, emotions fuel pretty much all decisions. I mean, if heroin didn’t feel good people wouldn’t do it. If fast food didn’t taste good people wouldn’t eat it. Conversely, negative emotion create patterns of behavior. Our behavior is complex and choice is a spectrum. I don’t really choose to brush my teeth, it just kind of happens. I can stop, but I don’t. I look around me and nobody stops brushing their teeth. Perhaps brushing our teeth is so popular because it creates positive emotions. Less shame, less worries, more comfort. I think, those in power harness this quite effectively.!
  - c03 2y ago
    My point was that a company, and thus products and employees, do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the government of which it is based. Besides taking ethical actions, how do you signal that that you share a certain set of political values with your consumers and shareholders, instead of your "somewhat arbitrary" law makers. It is a big shift, and not always an option, to move physical factories, workplaces, etc.
    - croniev 2y ago
      I agree, but there are also cases where it is blatantly clear that companies are not only on Trumps side but taking initiative themselves to corrode our political culture, and people here in europe are too comfy to make a switch, apart from a lack of similar alternatives. X and Meta are most obvious, and I don't know about google's involvement, but have been trying to convince people to move away from it for years. It's a similar situation with streaming services.
  - philistine 2y ago
    Ultimately it doesn't matter. We haven't blocked trade only with the segment of Iranians who support their government's nuclear program. We blocked trade with all Iranians, and put extra restrictions on specific government actors who enact nuclear policy. Same thing with Russia. Or Syria. Or North Korea. In foreign affairs, all the citizens of a nation are collectively held responsible for the action of that state. Which is to say: stop hedging. This is your government. You cannot wash your hands of this mess because you voted for Kodos. It's your mess, admit it, and see what you can do to fix it. The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.
- roenxi 2y ago
  > If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, put into words, shared and progressed... Being a cynic, I expect the speeches to start with that then smoothly translate into "and therefore we have to spend more money on waging war in foreign countries". The US is exemplifying some of the best international values right now of trying to find a sharp end to all the meaningless dying we've been seeing for the last few years. If it takes nationalism to make people serious about avoiding WWIII, so be it. Vote nationalist.
  - c03 2y ago
    If nuance is that hard to equip, then please do, but please be keenly aware that this is your own choice. No one will save you from your own actions.
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
    > The US is exemplifying some of the best international values right now of trying to find a sharp end to all the meaningless dying we've been seeing for the last few years. It's not rape if you agree to it.
  - touwer 2y ago
    You mean rape, fraud, corruption, narcissim, tax the poor, cut social welfare, suck up to the agressor, anti-tolerance, etc?
- rapnie 2y ago
  But it is not nationalism as the set of common shared values aren't bound to nations. And neither is it protectionism in the traditional meaning of the term. If you don't participate in upholding the value system (or worse actively seeks to destroy it) then you don't get to reap the benefits. I read this "buy European" initiative as a "don't buy American" in light of the current political situation. Withholding trade is an incentive to US voters to fix their system and tap into the benefits once again as a reward.
  - johngladtj 2y ago
    That's called pan nationalism a superset of nationalism
- ajuc 2y ago
  > Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. Their taxes still support their governments and so do your purchases if you buy there.
- hayst4ck 2y ago
  > If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, The history of "rights" is what you're looking for, and this would come in the form of a list of rights. You would probably get a lot out of reading The Declaration of the Rights of Man (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/rightsof.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/rightsof.asp), as well as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...). Thomas Paine wrote about the philosophy of rights as well, and you would probably get a lot out of reading his works such as The Rights of Man (https://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c1-013.htm https://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c1-013.htm) Something being a right means that law does not grant it. If law granted it, it would be a privilege rather than a right. Governments exist to protect rights, but they don't grant rights. That's the solution to the bootstrapping problem for non authoritarian forms of government and why it is always OK to defend your rights, even if they are illegal under a specific form of government. America's founding document, the declaration of independence, is explicit about this idea. > shared and progressed No, this is where you are wrong, you didn't use the word defend, and that's really where the problem with liberal ideas starts and ends. They must be defended, at personal cost, with force. Defending an idea that can't reward or punish you will not be as profitable or safe as defending a man who can reward or punish you. It is much easier for a man to build an army than for an idea to build an army. It will always be painful to defend your rights in the short term, but if you don't you will never have rights in the long term. Solidarity, risking your own safety and well being for the benefit of someone else, is the only way to achieve a world you want to live in, but some of the builders of that world won't get to experience it, and that's a hard sell to people who just want to see their kids smile.
  - parski 2y ago
    Hear!
- galfarragem 2y ago
  > Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. As do many Europeans...
FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>Not every european company embodies european values. What even are "European values"? Is there such thing? Every EU country I know has varying values to the other members, that's why we have separate borders, languages, religions, cultures and laws with autonomy over them. The EU is not one-nation one-culture like the US, but an org that doesn't impose any kind of universal values across the different diverse members except some laws that ease trade, labor movement and cooperation and that's it, but every country, and even every citizen has wildly different things they value based on culture, economy, history, social class and upbringing.
- amarcheschi 2y ago
  While every country has its own culture and values, the European union is founded, at least theoretically, on some shared values such as promoting peace, democracy (...) Well, one might say that we sell weapons to dictatorships (and they would be correct), but at least on paper there are some shared values we more or less share throughout European union. Full list here: https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/principles-and-values/aims-and-values_en https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor... Edit Wikipedia page as well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_values https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_values
  - johngladtj 2y ago
    Promoting peace and democracy? By arresting politicians opposed to them and funding and supporting wars?
    - pastage 2y ago
      Maybe be specific, are there any specific wars you find undemocratic. Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated, the attack on Ukraine is seen as an attack on Europe but is also heavily debated.
      - rsynnott 2y ago
        > Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated Also, not European wars. In particular, only two European countries participated in Iraq.
amarcheschi 2y ago
While I do agree with what you say, I feel the og post is more in the spirit of "buy local, support your local x/y/z" rather than just sharing values. At least, this is how I see it, even if the title says support European values, which is surely much more inspiring
timeon 2y ago
It should not be just about values but also security. Well I use Signal but what if their servers are sized or blocked for EU users? (This is also valid for many companies listed in the page that are hosted on US clouds).
lynx97 2y ago
What are European values, actually? I don't think there is a lot that all member state citizens actually share, except for a lot of wishful thinking.
- simion314 2y ago
  >What are European values, actually? We accept that each European country people are equal, we agree to collaborate and not screw each others for land. Also we in majority are against fascism,racism and discrimination though social media managed to make a portion of idiots to hate LGBTQs and wokes so they want they adopted fascist values. We as citizens we re doing our best to fight aginst this fascists groups. And before some MAGA will calim that right wing extemists are not fascists, I remind you that supporting assassinations, deportations, killings while at the same time pretending to be Christian is fascist (at least in my country, in USA might be labeled different)
  - lynx97 2y ago
    [dead]
- kharak 2y ago
  Replace European with Cosmopolitan values. There are no unified European values, as the states of Europe are quite diverse. But there is significant cultural homogeneity for a subset of the population, the cosmopolitans. They tend to be the elites and form these kind of discourses. They use the term European values, mostly unaware of their cosmopolitan nature.
- idkfasayer 2y ago
  [dead]
- tpm 2y ago
  All member states share the European Convention on Human Rights.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  That’s the question that is easy to answer with a single document: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/treaty/char_2012/oj/eng https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/treaty/char_2012/oj/eng
closewith 2y ago
I'm not sure that's the best example, as Signal places a strong emphasis on personal freedoms which is _not_ particularly representative of European values at this time.
- simion314 2y ago
  Yeah, you can't be a nazi in Europe, promoting political assasination and genocide has consequences there,
  - closewith 2y ago
    Yes, I agree. Signal is inherently contrary to the statism en vogue in most European nations at this time, and why they have repeatedly affirmed that they would leave the EU rather than allow user surveillance should Chat Control 2.0 or 3.0 be passed (rather Orwellianly officially named the "Regulation to Prevent and Combat Child Sexual Abuse (Child Sexual Abuse Regulation)".
    - simion314 2y ago
      That was a proposal that did not happen Should we dig up USa stupid proposals? Or dig up actual laws like the USA laws for snooping on people that were revealed by Snowden? A bit offtopic , is it a lw or rule that you are not allowed to call Trump a felon ? And is that constitutional?
      - closewith 2y ago
        > That was a proposal that did not happen I'm well aware, as I was involved in the effort to block it (on four separate occasions now, and undoubtedly will again). > Should we dig up USa stupid proposals? Or dig up actual laws like the USA laws for snooping on people that were revealed by Snowden? The topic of this thread is European values and whether Signal embodies them or not. It's hopefully obvious to anyone interested that the prioritisation of individual freedoms that Signal embodies is not reflective of current European values, given the ever increasing levels of State surveillance across the continent. That these are also not US values, even though their populace and politicians endlessly claim they are, is not relevant to this discussion.
finnjohnsen2 2y ago
DuckDuckGo is another such example
kkarpkkarp 2y ago
Signal comes from the country where the Prism [1] is still functioning. While it has open source, NSA can request from deployers on any stage to inject surveillance functionality: request from Signal authors, from Android / Apple Store repository maintainers and probably many other actors on the deployment chain to my mobile phone. I could install it from sources but I do not have any guarantee my message sent to my friend is not eye-picked by PRISM on his phone. Open-source + marketing copy != final product Just a regular reminder, guys. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
- kreetx 2y ago
  I wonder why can't we have a fully open source e2ee that would be easy to use?
  - fsflover 2y ago
    Matrix is getting there.
    - workfromspace 2y ago
      I keep hearing about Matrix (protocol) for a long time now. Wikipedia says [0] it was started 10 years ago. I wonder what's the hold up? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)
      - fsflover 2y ago
        I'm already using to to chat with my friends and family. The basic features are sufficiently polished IMHO.
  - SSLy 2y ago
    > I wonder why can't we have a fully open source e2ee that would be easy to use? what would you say about simplex's UX? https://simplex.chat/docs/guide/readme.html https://simplex.chat/docs/guide/readme.html
idkfasayer 2y ago
[dead]
rsynnott 2y ago
Am I missing something? The only alternative offered for Signal is a Matrix client. Matrix is open-source and federated, so, well, can really embody whoever's values you feel like. Though it, ah, certainly lacks something in _usability_.
- UncleSlacky 2y ago
  Threema should be there as a European alternative to Signal: https://threema.ch/en https://threema.ch/en
whiplash451 2y ago
Some US companies may represent European values but are still operating under the thumb and law of the US. The philosophy here (as I understand it) is to list companies that operate under the EU rule of law.
arghwhat 2y ago
*Support European values financially. Local circulation and tax payment does make a big and positive difference for many things (e.g., less transport for physical goods). Doesn't require the first recipient to be aligned with your values to have an effect. It's just unfortunate that it had to be forced for stupid reasons, especially as it doesn't necessarily make sense for everything. This timeline sucks.
mrweasel 2y ago
You also have the issue that a company like Ecosia is listed as a German company, but their search is powered by Bing and Google, so does it really make much of a difference?
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  Bing and Google will always be powered by Bing and Google. Ecosia can bootsrap itself with their services until its value is great enough that it can fund itself a solution. That would be the ideal here anyway.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
fsflover 2y ago
Signal forces you to use Apple or Google phones (which enable spying on users via, e.g., push notifications [0]), actively fights with third party clients and servers, goes against decentralization. They want to be the single point of failure or attack. They also use the AWS. This is all too suspicious for me. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543155 See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39445976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39445976, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39414322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39414322, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32248062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32248062
- anonym29 2y ago
  Not if you're using Molly-FOSS, which strips all Google integrations down to a shared library level. UnifiedPush instead of Firebase. OSM for location sharing instead of GMaps. There are de-googled AOSP-based mobile OS's such as GrapheneOS that can be used with Molly-FOSS as well. It's not necessarily the perfect end goal, but for those who are at an earlier phase of their privacy journey, GrapheneOS + Molly-FOSS is a massive improvement over stock Android + stock Signal, while maintaining a relatively minimal disruption to their ordinary workflows with e2ee messaging on an android-based smartphone. https://molly.im/ https://molly.im/ https://github.com/mollyim/mollyim-android https://github.com/mollyim/mollyim-android
jxjnskkzxxhx 2y ago
You said "not every European company embodies European values", but as an example you mentioned an American company.

by zoul 2y ago

c03 2y ago

This is a great point where nationality does not reflect political values. Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, put into words, shared and progressed, it would have much greater value to a consumer and the world than merely going back to nationalism and protectionism.

a12k 2y ago
> Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. I can’t speak for Russia because I have no data, but most Americans don’t carry the opinion of this government.
- Goto80 2y ago
  If that is the case, how did this government get a majority?
  - atwrk 2y ago
    Voter suppression: https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/ https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/
  - re-thc 2y ago
    > how did this government get a majority? That's not what people voted for (agreeing with the government). They were given choices and to pick what they felt they preferred.
    - ajuc 2y ago
      People have choosen to believe obvious lies because they wanted them to be true, not because they thought they were true. It's as much their fault as the politicians who lied to them.
      - re-thc 2y ago
        > because they wanted them to be true This assumes they even know what the truth is. We have discovered that a lot of people don't know how tariffs work for example.
        ajuc 2y ago
        They know enough to understand which way should their ignorance be pointed to support their worldview. I've seen this countless times, I'm from eastern Poland, we had our own MAGA ruling for 8 years, and eastern Poland is where most of their voters come from. When it benefits these people - they understand enough to know what the mainstream opinion is and they don't oppose it. When it does not support their worldview - they suddenly stop believing the experts or forget what the expert opinion is. Ignorance is not the root cause. It's a protection mechanism. It's fascinating to watch at first, but after 8 years of this I'm just tired.
        re-thc 2y ago
        > They know enough to understand which way should their ignorance be pointed to support their worldview. Again, you assume or are you god? Did you mind read everyone? Otherwise there's no way to really tell. Are the votes public? What people say might not be what they vote for. > I've seen this countless times As in you've looked at everyone in existence? > Ignorance is not the root cause. It's a protection mechanism. Again how do you draw this conclusion that 100% or at least >70% are like this. It's like you decide for them. So even if they're ignorant you're going to rule otherwise. > It's fascinating to watch at first This is worse than stereotyping. What's fascinating is listening to your reply.
  - greedylizard 2y ago
    The electoral college rigs the game. If one person equaled one vote, American government could look significantly different right now.
    - walls 2y ago
      It would still have trump at the head of it.
      - alistairSH 2y ago
        Trump might be in the WH, but Congress would possibly not be controlled by the GOP.
      - tacticalturtle 2y ago
        In a world without an electoral college, I’m not sure you can say this. Almost every state is winner take all in electoral votes. I suspect there are a lot of discouraged voters who don’t vote, because they live in states where their opinion is overrun by the political slant of the state’s majority. In a direct popular vote, their vote counts a lot more.
    - philistine 2y ago
      Those are sufficient excuses that prevent countries from signing free trade deals with other nations: we don't trust the health of your political system to sign a free trade deal with your nation.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    A mixture of things. Dishonesty — which is broader than just "lying" — for one. One of Trump's talking points during the election was "never started a war", and now: https://theconversation.com/trumps-threats-on-greenland-gaza-ukraine-and-panama-revive-old-school-us-imperialism-of-dominating-other-nations-by-force-after-decades-of-nuclear-deterrence-249327 https://theconversation.com/trumps-threats-on-greenland-gaza... But also, people can change their minds between elections: https://eu.providencejournal.com/story/news/politics/2025/03/05/what-is-trumps-approval-rating-heres-what-the-latest-polls-show/81571173007/ https://eu.providencejournal.com/story/news/politics/2025/03...
  - alistairSH 2y ago
    Trump won 49.x% of the vote. But the US doesn’t have direct presidential elections. It has an archaic, anti-democratic system called the Electoral College, which grants land in Wyoming greater relative weight than people in Texas.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Don't forget: Only about 2/3 of eligible voters voted. So those 1/3 who didn't vote, effectively voted for (or at the very least, condoned) the winner. They didn't physically vote, but by not-voting, they are literally saying "I'm OK with whoever wins."
  - DougN7 2y ago
    A huge number felt they had to vote for the lesser of two bad choices. I think many that voted for Trump were naive and are genuinely surprised at what they are seeing. At least I’d like to think so, despite what you might find on forums.
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
    It did because that's exactly what people want, it's just that many people will tell you otherwise because they live in an information bubble and cannot believe that there exists voters outside of their bubble.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      Same with opinions on HN. People here don't realize they're in a bubble and their opinions aren't representative for the masses. If you tell them that you get downvoted and flagged.
      - croniev 2y ago
        I'm sorry but it sounds like you were trying to spread conspiracy theories, the way you are putting it. Do you have some examples?
        fsflover 2y ago
        Maybe something like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43068557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43068557 and this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43264608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43264608
  - ajuc 2y ago
    They don't support imperialism, but they also don't care enough to be against imperialism. They care about egg prices or their favorite culture wars more than about people dying elsewhere. It's egoism, simple as that.
    - consteval 2y ago
      I think it’s more complicated - this feels like a psychology and biology issue. Those things are naturally closer to them which then means they generate stronger emotions. Just intuitively, emotions fuel pretty much all decisions. I mean, if heroin didn’t feel good people wouldn’t do it. If fast food didn’t taste good people wouldn’t eat it. Conversely, negative emotion create patterns of behavior. Our behavior is complex and choice is a spectrum. I don’t really choose to brush my teeth, it just kind of happens. I can stop, but I don’t. I look around me and nobody stops brushing their teeth. Perhaps brushing our teeth is so popular because it creates positive emotions. Less shame, less worries, more comfort. I think, those in power harness this quite effectively.!
- c03 2y ago
  My point was that a company, and thus products and employees, do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the government of which it is based. Besides taking ethical actions, how do you signal that that you share a certain set of political values with your consumers and shareholders, instead of your "somewhat arbitrary" law makers. It is a big shift, and not always an option, to move physical factories, workplaces, etc.
  - croniev 2y ago
    I agree, but there are also cases where it is blatantly clear that companies are not only on Trumps side but taking initiative themselves to corrode our political culture, and people here in europe are too comfy to make a switch, apart from a lack of similar alternatives. X and Meta are most obvious, and I don't know about google's involvement, but have been trying to convince people to move away from it for years. It's a similar situation with streaming services.
- philistine 2y ago
  Ultimately it doesn't matter. We haven't blocked trade only with the segment of Iranians who support their government's nuclear program. We blocked trade with all Iranians, and put extra restrictions on specific government actors who enact nuclear policy. Same thing with Russia. Or Syria. Or North Korea. In foreign affairs, all the citizens of a nation are collectively held responsible for the action of that state. Which is to say: stop hedging. This is your government. You cannot wash your hands of this mess because you voted for Kodos. It's your mess, admit it, and see what you can do to fix it. The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.
roenxi 2y ago
> If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, put into words, shared and progressed... Being a cynic, I expect the speeches to start with that then smoothly translate into "and therefore we have to spend more money on waging war in foreign countries". The US is exemplifying some of the best international values right now of trying to find a sharp end to all the meaningless dying we've been seeing for the last few years. If it takes nationalism to make people serious about avoiding WWIII, so be it. Vote nationalist.
- c03 2y ago
  If nuance is that hard to equip, then please do, but please be keenly aware that this is your own choice. No one will save you from your own actions.
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  > The US is exemplifying some of the best international values right now of trying to find a sharp end to all the meaningless dying we've been seeing for the last few years. It's not rape if you agree to it.
- touwer 2y ago
  You mean rape, fraud, corruption, narcissim, tax the poor, cut social welfare, suck up to the agressor, anti-tolerance, etc?
rapnie 2y ago
But it is not nationalism as the set of common shared values aren't bound to nations. And neither is it protectionism in the traditional meaning of the term. If you don't participate in upholding the value system (or worse actively seeks to destroy it) then you don't get to reap the benefits. I read this "buy European" initiative as a "don't buy American" in light of the current political situation. Withholding trade is an incentive to US voters to fix their system and tap into the benefits once again as a reward.
- johngladtj 2y ago
  That's called pan nationalism a superset of nationalism
ajuc 2y ago
> Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. Their taxes still support their governments and so do your purchases if you buy there.
hayst4ck 2y ago
> If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, The history of "rights" is what you're looking for, and this would come in the form of a list of rights. You would probably get a lot out of reading The Declaration of the Rights of Man (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/rightsof.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/rightsof.asp), as well as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...). Thomas Paine wrote about the philosophy of rights as well, and you would probably get a lot out of reading his works such as The Rights of Man (https://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c1-013.htm https://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c1-013.htm) Something being a right means that law does not grant it. If law granted it, it would be a privilege rather than a right. Governments exist to protect rights, but they don't grant rights. That's the solution to the bootstrapping problem for non authoritarian forms of government and why it is always OK to defend your rights, even if they are illegal under a specific form of government. America's founding document, the declaration of independence, is explicit about this idea. > shared and progressed No, this is where you are wrong, you didn't use the word defend, and that's really where the problem with liberal ideas starts and ends. They must be defended, at personal cost, with force. Defending an idea that can't reward or punish you will not be as profitable or safe as defending a man who can reward or punish you. It is much easier for a man to build an army than for an idea to build an army. It will always be painful to defend your rights in the short term, but if you don't you will never have rights in the long term. Solidarity, risking your own safety and well being for the benefit of someone else, is the only way to achieve a world you want to live in, but some of the builders of that world won't get to experience it, and that's a hard sell to people who just want to see their kids smile.
- parski 2y ago
  Hear!
galfarragem 2y ago
> Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. As do many Europeans...

FirmwareBurner 2y ago

>Not every european company embodies european values. What even are "European values"? Is there such thing? Every EU country I know has varying values to the other members, that's why we have separate borders, languages, religions, cultures and laws with autonomy over them. The EU is not one-nation one-culture like the US, but an org that doesn't impose any kind of universal values across the different diverse members except some laws that ease trade, labor movement and cooperation and that's it, but every country, and even every citizen has wildly different things they value based on culture, economy, history, social class and upbringing.

amarcheschi 2y ago
While every country has its own culture and values, the European union is founded, at least theoretically, on some shared values such as promoting peace, democracy (...) Well, one might say that we sell weapons to dictatorships (and they would be correct), but at least on paper there are some shared values we more or less share throughout European union. Full list here: https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/principles-and-values/aims-and-values_en https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor... Edit Wikipedia page as well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_values https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_values
- johngladtj 2y ago
  Promoting peace and democracy? By arresting politicians opposed to them and funding and supporting wars?
  - pastage 2y ago
    Maybe be specific, are there any specific wars you find undemocratic. Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated, the attack on Ukraine is seen as an attack on Europe but is also heavily debated.
    - rsynnott 2y ago
      > Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated Also, not European wars. In particular, only two European countries participated in Iraq.

amarcheschi 2y ago

While I do agree with what you say, I feel the og post is more in the spirit of "buy local, support your local x/y/z" rather than just sharing values. At least, this is how I see it, even if the title says support European values, which is surely much more inspiring

timeon 2y ago

It should not be just about values but also security. Well I use Signal but what if their servers are sized or blocked for EU users? (This is also valid for many companies listed in the page that are hosted on US clouds).

lynx97 2y ago

What are European values, actually? I don't think there is a lot that all member state citizens actually share, except for a lot of wishful thinking.

simion314 2y ago
>What are European values, actually? We accept that each European country people are equal, we agree to collaborate and not screw each others for land. Also we in majority are against fascism,racism and discrimination though social media managed to make a portion of idiots to hate LGBTQs and wokes so they want they adopted fascist values. We as citizens we re doing our best to fight aginst this fascists groups. And before some MAGA will calim that right wing extemists are not fascists, I remind you that supporting assassinations, deportations, killings while at the same time pretending to be Christian is fascist (at least in my country, in USA might be labeled different)
- lynx97 2y ago
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kharak 2y ago
Replace European with Cosmopolitan values. There are no unified European values, as the states of Europe are quite diverse. But there is significant cultural homogeneity for a subset of the population, the cosmopolitans. They tend to be the elites and form these kind of discourses. They use the term European values, mostly unaware of their cosmopolitan nature.
idkfasayer 2y ago
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tpm 2y ago
All member states share the European Convention on Human Rights.
ivan_gammel 2y ago
That’s the question that is easy to answer with a single document: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/treaty/char_2012/oj/eng https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/treaty/char_2012/oj/eng

closewith 2y ago

I'm not sure that's the best example, as Signal places a strong emphasis on personal freedoms which is _not_ particularly representative of European values at this time.

simion314 2y ago
Yeah, you can't be a nazi in Europe, promoting political assasination and genocide has consequences there,
- closewith 2y ago
  Yes, I agree. Signal is inherently contrary to the statism en vogue in most European nations at this time, and why they have repeatedly affirmed that they would leave the EU rather than allow user surveillance should Chat Control 2.0 or 3.0 be passed (rather Orwellianly officially named the "Regulation to Prevent and Combat Child Sexual Abuse (Child Sexual Abuse Regulation)".
  - simion314 2y ago
    That was a proposal that did not happen Should we dig up USa stupid proposals? Or dig up actual laws like the USA laws for snooping on people that were revealed by Snowden? A bit offtopic , is it a lw or rule that you are not allowed to call Trump a felon ? And is that constitutional?
    - closewith 2y ago
      > That was a proposal that did not happen I'm well aware, as I was involved in the effort to block it (on four separate occasions now, and undoubtedly will again). > Should we dig up USa stupid proposals? Or dig up actual laws like the USA laws for snooping on people that were revealed by Snowden? The topic of this thread is European values and whether Signal embodies them or not. It's hopefully obvious to anyone interested that the prioritisation of individual freedoms that Signal embodies is not reflective of current European values, given the ever increasing levels of State surveillance across the continent. That these are also not US values, even though their populace and politicians endlessly claim they are, is not relevant to this discussion.

finnjohnsen2 2y ago

DuckDuckGo is another such example

kkarpkkarp 2y ago

Signal comes from the country where the Prism [1] is still functioning. While it has open source, NSA can request from deployers on any stage to inject surveillance functionality: request from Signal authors, from Android / Apple Store repository maintainers and probably many other actors on the deployment chain to my mobile phone. I could install it from sources but I do not have any guarantee my message sent to my friend is not eye-picked by PRISM on his phone. Open-source + marketing copy != final product Just a regular reminder, guys. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

kreetx 2y ago
I wonder why can't we have a fully open source e2ee that would be easy to use?
- fsflover 2y ago
  Matrix is getting there.
  - workfromspace 2y ago
    I keep hearing about Matrix (protocol) for a long time now. Wikipedia says [0] it was started 10 years ago. I wonder what's the hold up? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)
    - fsflover 2y ago
      I'm already using to to chat with my friends and family. The basic features are sufficiently polished IMHO.
- SSLy 2y ago
  > I wonder why can't we have a fully open source e2ee that would be easy to use? what would you say about simplex's UX? https://simplex.chat/docs/guide/readme.html https://simplex.chat/docs/guide/readme.html

idkfasayer 2y ago

[dead]

rsynnott 2y ago

Am I missing something? The only alternative offered for Signal is a Matrix client. Matrix is open-source and federated, so, well, can really embody whoever's values you feel like. Though it, ah, certainly lacks something in _usability_.

UncleSlacky 2y ago
Threema should be there as a European alternative to Signal: https://threema.ch/en https://threema.ch/en

whiplash451 2y ago

Some US companies may represent European values but are still operating under the thumb and law of the US. The philosophy here (as I understand it) is to list companies that operate under the EU rule of law.

arghwhat 2y ago

*Support European values financially. Local circulation and tax payment does make a big and positive difference for many things (e.g., less transport for physical goods). Doesn't require the first recipient to be aligned with your values to have an effect. It's just unfortunate that it had to be forced for stupid reasons, especially as it doesn't necessarily make sense for everything. This timeline sucks.

mrweasel 2y ago

You also have the issue that a company like Ecosia is listed as a German company, but their search is powered by Bing and Google, so does it really make much of a difference?

AlecSchueler 2y ago
Bing and Google will always be powered by Bing and Google. Ecosia can bootsrap itself with their services until its value is great enough that it can fund itself a solution. That would be the ideal here anyway.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

fsflover 2y ago

Signal forces you to use Apple or Google phones (which enable spying on users via, e.g., push notifications [0]), actively fights with third party clients and servers, goes against decentralization. They want to be the single point of failure or attack. They also use the AWS. This is all too suspicious for me. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543155 See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39445976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39445976, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39414322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39414322, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32248062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32248062

anonym29 2y ago
Not if you're using Molly-FOSS, which strips all Google integrations down to a shared library level. UnifiedPush instead of Firebase. OSM for location sharing instead of GMaps. There are de-googled AOSP-based mobile OS's such as GrapheneOS that can be used with Molly-FOSS as well. It's not necessarily the perfect end goal, but for those who are at an earlier phase of their privacy journey, GrapheneOS + Molly-FOSS is a massive improvement over stock Android + stock Signal, while maintaining a relatively minimal disruption to their ordinary workflows with e2ee messaging on an android-based smartphone. https://molly.im/ https://molly.im/ https://github.com/mollyim/mollyim-android https://github.com/mollyim/mollyim-android

jxjnskkzxxhx 2y ago

You said "not every European company embodies European values", but as an example you mentioned an American company.