4 ms·

Maybe it was better in big cities but when I was a kid researching papers on niche topics was tough because the local library had few books, mostly older ones,

Maybe it was better in big cities but when I was a kid researching papers on niche topics was tough because the local library had few books, mostly older ones, and I had to have my parents drive me there because it was too far to bike... When we got 24/7 internet it was a game changer, it was like turning on a tap of knowledge on every topic. Of course the signal to noise ratio was higher back then...

crystal_revenge 2y ago
Your public library didn’t have inter-library loan? Most public libraries have always been able to get you books not in their collection, you just have to ask.
- spooneybarger 2y ago
  Mine in a deeply rural area did not. Going to a library as an urban dweller would imagine was an all day affair. We generally did it a few times a year but that was part of a larger trip to go to "the better hospital" or what not.
- rob-olmos 2y ago
  Adding to the GP & sibling: Even in Los Angeles with some of the bigger libraries the IT/programming books were on the older (outdated?) side.. The more modern material was at the book stores like Barnes, Borders, or another one at the mall (I don't remember if it was B Dalton, Walden, or something else).. thankfully I could skateboard there after school or work and read them there for the evening since I couldn't afford them. Getting the internet and SNR of content back then was a game changer to me too.
  - dharmab 2y ago
    Yup, I had no free resources on programming anything more complex than BASIC until I had reliable internet. I bought my first copy of Linux and a beginner's guide at B&N, for example.
  - danaris 2y ago
    I think it's fair to say that, particularly through the '80s and '90s, the IT/programming books were outliers in how fast they became outdated, because the field was just moving so very quickly. (It still is, to a large extent, but now we have the internet to disseminate that information.) For research on most topics, from history to social sciences to particle physics, the books at the library (or available through interlibrary loan) would be plenty recent enough for anyone not already specializing in the field, and such people would likely already have access to at least a college/university library, and likely a variety of academic journal subscriptions (often through said college/university library).
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > Your public library didn’t have inter-library loan? Growing up before libraries had computerized databases, sure, they had ILL, but the books that weren't in their collection weren’t in the card catalog either, so you had no easy way of discovering that a book you might want outside of a library’s own collection (1) existed, and (2) was available through ILL. It wasn't until after the internet was generally available to the public that most public libraries I encountered had computerized catalogs with ILL availability.
timr 2y ago
I get what you're saying, but later in life I went to university, where I had access to better libraries, for which the quality and quantity of information is (to this day) greater than you can obtain on the internet [1]. Things like arxiv are a step toward that "tap of knowledge on every topic", but the overwhelming feeling I get from most internet content these days (and that includes LLM output) is that it's an inch deep and a mile wide [2]. A good book -- which can usually be found at your local library -- will vastly exceed the quality of what you can find on your own, if only because of intelligent curation. Maybe I'm just a romantic (or just old), but for me, libraries are still where you do serious research. [1] yes, I know that many university libraries have a selection of their content on the internet now, but usually this is behind a login, and it certainly isn't comprehensive. [2] recent example: I've been working through McCullough's "The Great Bridge", and there are frequent occasions when I want to find out more information or see diagrams of what he's describing. The internet is, nearly always, completely useless for this. Tons of content on the Brooklyn Bridge, but it all says the same superficial stuff. Though I will grant that you at least can find some stuff like this now, if you try hard enough: https://bklyn.newspapers.com/article/brooklyn-eagle-the-bridge-tower-its-pra/33024962/ https://bklyn.newspapers.com/article/brooklyn-eagle-the-brid...
- j7ake 2y ago
  Going into university libraries fills me with awe and purpose. Seeing a shelf of curated textbooks on a topic (eg non Newtonian fluid flow), gives me a feeling of depth. Each book represents years or decades of an authors life. And they condensed that wisdom into a textbook that could be consumed in a semester. I would love to be a Knuth type character working in library and writing textbooks.
  - musicale 2y ago
    Unfortunately many universities are storing or downsizing their collections. On one hand it seems logical that public domain books can readily be kept in digital form without taking up shelf space. On the other hand, the experience of browsing and serendipity that many find beneficial will be lost.
  - 2y ago
neilv 2y ago
> because the local library had few books, mostly older ones, I think this is an important observation. In the age of the Web, people might not appreciate what it means when your access to information on a topic is sometimes only through outdated sources, which is a bit different than not having access at all. I was lucky that my mom frequently brought us kids around to multiple public library branches, but I definitely remember a lot of older books. For example, a book explaining an electric circuits would involve photos of some kind of common household item large cylindrical battery cell with screw terminals, which I have never seen, not before, nor since. And pretty much any book on computers, robots, or electronics would be at least a few years old, usually several years or a decade or more. (This has improved, at least at my current local library.) Another effect of being exposed to lots of older books is that, although my hair is still not gray, I'll sometimes inadvertently speak with anachronistic, old-timey language that predates me. With the old public library books, I also got a dose of vintage subtle American propaganda (e.g., freedom and justice are good, and are American; dictators and secret police are bad, and are Nazi/Soviet), though the Cold War already seemed to be ending. I'm programmed to believe that that propaganda was a positive influence, but it's sometimes uncomfortable values, when one sees an overall citizenry that doesn't always seem to have been marinated as much in quite the same mix of programming.

crystal_revenge 2y ago

Your public library didn’t have inter-library loan? Most public libraries have always been able to get you books not in their collection, you just have to ask.

spooneybarger 2y ago
Mine in a deeply rural area did not. Going to a library as an urban dweller would imagine was an all day affair. We generally did it a few times a year but that was part of a larger trip to go to "the better hospital" or what not.
rob-olmos 2y ago
Adding to the GP & sibling: Even in Los Angeles with some of the bigger libraries the IT/programming books were on the older (outdated?) side.. The more modern material was at the book stores like Barnes, Borders, or another one at the mall (I don't remember if it was B Dalton, Walden, or something else).. thankfully I could skateboard there after school or work and read them there for the evening since I couldn't afford them. Getting the internet and SNR of content back then was a game changer to me too.
- dharmab 2y ago
  Yup, I had no free resources on programming anything more complex than BASIC until I had reliable internet. I bought my first copy of Linux and a beginner's guide at B&N, for example.
- danaris 2y ago
  I think it's fair to say that, particularly through the '80s and '90s, the IT/programming books were outliers in how fast they became outdated, because the field was just moving so very quickly. (It still is, to a large extent, but now we have the internet to disseminate that information.) For research on most topics, from history to social sciences to particle physics, the books at the library (or available through interlibrary loan) would be plenty recent enough for anyone not already specializing in the field, and such people would likely already have access to at least a college/university library, and likely a variety of academic journal subscriptions (often through said college/university library).
dragonwriter 2y ago
> Your public library didn’t have inter-library loan? Growing up before libraries had computerized databases, sure, they had ILL, but the books that weren't in their collection weren’t in the card catalog either, so you had no easy way of discovering that a book you might want outside of a library’s own collection (1) existed, and (2) was available through ILL. It wasn't until after the internet was generally available to the public that most public libraries I encountered had computerized catalogs with ILL availability.

timr 2y ago

I get what you're saying, but later in life I went to university, where I had access to better libraries, for which the quality and quantity of information is (to this day) greater than you can obtain on the internet [1]. Things like arxiv are a step toward that "tap of knowledge on every topic", but the overwhelming feeling I get from most internet content these days (and that includes LLM output) is that it's an inch deep and a mile wide [2]. A good book -- which can usually be found at your local library -- will vastly exceed the quality of what you can find on your own, if only because of intelligent curation. Maybe I'm just a romantic (or just old), but for me, libraries are still where you do serious research. [1] yes, I know that many university libraries have a selection of their content on the internet now, but usually this is behind a login, and it certainly isn't comprehensive. [2] recent example: I've been working through McCullough's "The Great Bridge", and there are frequent occasions when I want to find out more information or see diagrams of what he's describing. The internet is, nearly always, completely useless for this. Tons of content on the Brooklyn Bridge, but it all says the same superficial stuff. Though I will grant that you at least can find some stuff like this now, if you try hard enough: https://bklyn.newspapers.com/article/brooklyn-eagle-the-bridge-tower-its-pra/33024962/ https://bklyn.newspapers.com/article/brooklyn-eagle-the-brid...

j7ake 2y ago
Going into university libraries fills me with awe and purpose. Seeing a shelf of curated textbooks on a topic (eg non Newtonian fluid flow), gives me a feeling of depth. Each book represents years or decades of an authors life. And they condensed that wisdom into a textbook that could be consumed in a semester. I would love to be a Knuth type character working in library and writing textbooks.
- musicale 2y ago
  Unfortunately many universities are storing or downsizing their collections. On one hand it seems logical that public domain books can readily be kept in digital form without taking up shelf space. On the other hand, the experience of browsing and serendipity that many find beneficial will be lost.
- 2y ago

neilv 2y ago

> because the local library had few books, mostly older ones, I think this is an important observation. In the age of the Web, people might not appreciate what it means when your access to information on a topic is sometimes only through outdated sources, which is a bit different than not having access at all. I was lucky that my mom frequently brought us kids around to multiple public library branches, but I definitely remember a lot of older books. For example, a book explaining an electric circuits would involve photos of some kind of common household item large cylindrical battery cell with screw terminals, which I have never seen, not before, nor since. And pretty much any book on computers, robots, or electronics would be at least a few years old, usually several years or a decade or more. (This has improved, at least at my current local library.) Another effect of being exposed to lots of older books is that, although my hair is still not gray, I'll sometimes inadvertently speak with anachronistic, old-timey language that predates me. With the old public library books, I also got a dose of vintage subtle American propaganda (e.g., freedom and justice are good, and are American; dictators and secret police are bad, and are Nazi/Soviet), though the Cold War already seemed to be ending. I'm programmed to believe that that propaganda was a positive influence, but it's sometimes uncomfortable values, when one sees an overall citizenry that doesn't always seem to have been marinated as much in quite the same mix of programming.