4 ms·

At some point I really don't get how people can't just accept that historically, the US is a car-centric suburban-centric culture, and that's just who we largel

At some point I really don't get how people can't just accept that historically, the US is a car-centric suburban-centric culture, and that's just who we largely are. If you want to do things like improve the environment, you can either scream and stamp your feet about it or you can meet people where they are and devise solutions that work in a car-centric culture. It just is what it is, like Brits drinking tea, Scandinavians liking their saunas, or the French being obnoxious about Frenchness.

malcolmgreaves 2y ago
You need to be a student of history, otherwise you’ll be blinded by the present and make these kinds of very wrong conclusions. The US was the world leader in railroads. US cities had state of the rail based public transit systems. LA had the most extensive streetcar system in the world. Even St Louis used to be as accessible as NYC. People changed because corporations lied to the public and meticulously destroyed public transit in the US. People can change again.
- malcolmgreaves 2y ago
  Too late to edit, but I wanted to say — apologies for being condescending. That was unnecessary and mean spirited of me and I’m sorry for doing that. Truthfully, I do hope at least I was able to communicate that it’s important to keep in mind that there have been other things we’ve done as a society and there are reasons why we are where we are today.
marssaxman 2y ago
That's a shallow, post-WWII vision of history. The US used to build great cities, then it bulldozed large parts of them to build the present highway-oriented dystopia. If one radical change was possible then, so is another, now. The car-centric, suburb-centric culture cannot be sustained economically or ecologically, and will therefore come to an end. How do we want that to happen - intentionally and progressively, or catastrophically?
ericmay 2y ago
I don't think your historical analysis is very correct. What you think of as car-centric suburban-centric culture didn't really arise until after World War II. It's really a relatively new thing, even considering how young the United States is. Obesity rates track historically with car-centric culture, should we just accept that is who we are, or can we work on cultural and policy changes that alleviate that problem? Other countries like the Netherlands went through the same car-centric design phase and realized it was too expensive and bad for the country so they reverted. We can and should keep cars, but our reliance on them for our very existence is quite fragile and unnecessary. Why does the average American have to spend $300 - $800/month or more in direct costs (insurance, gasoline, tires, loan payments, etc.) plus indirect costs (taxes for infrastructure) in order to go to the grocery store to buy a tomato or take their children to a playground? > If you want to do things like improve the environment, you can either scream and stamp your feet about it or you can meet people where they are and devise solutions that work in a car-centric culture. Instead of "screaming and stamping my feet" - isn't that what Road Rage is? I prefer to just work with organizations and political leaders to devise and implement solutions that reduce our need for car-centric culture and improve our economic resilience. That means fewer surface parking lots which are economic outflows, more bike lanes, slower speed limits, and better roadway design that incorporates segmented bike lanes, bus lanes, and more.
- kolanos 2y ago
  > Other countries like the Netherlands went through the same car-centric design phase and realized it was too expensive and bad for the country so they reverted. We can and should keep cars, but our reliance on them for our very existence is quite fragile and unnecessary. The Netherlands is roughly the size of Maryland. If The Netherlands was a U.S. state, it would be 42nd in terms of land area.
  - pseudalopex 2y ago
    > The Netherlands is roughly the size of Maryland. How is this relevant in your mind? Do you imagine most Americans crossing entire states in their daily commute? Do you imagine people and goods do not cross European borders?
eszed 2y ago
Apart from the points made by sibling posters, markets reveal preferences. The eye-watering price of urban land suggests that many, many more people would prefer to live in cities than currently do. (Full disclosure: I am one of them. Reluctantly living in a suburb because kids; will move back to the City as soon as they get their thumb out and build enough housing to make it more affordable.)
citadel_melon 2y ago
Change is possible and change always feels difficult before it happens, but feels inevitable when looking back. Change would be harder in places like Texas, sure, but East coast cities and the Midwest have so many opportunities to continue to develop more and more public transportation options. Anyone who has had the privilege to live in a city where walking is easier than driving knows how much more freeing not having a car is than having one.
modriano 2y ago
> ... historically, the US is a car-centric suburban-centric culture, and that's just who we largely are. While we now do have a suburban-centric subculture, the car is just a tool that enables that subculture to easily access economic opportunities without having to interact with the classes segregated out of desirable locations by contemporary (explicitly racist) federal housing policies [0]. Although, I guess now that I look at it in that light (and noting the fact that every major city is still very racially segregated), I suppose that is just who we largely are and historically have been. [0] https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/Federal-Housing-Administration-Underwriting-Manual.pdf https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/Feder...
CHB0403085482 2y ago
> US is a car-centric suburban-centric culture It's a recent thing ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

malcolmgreaves 2y ago

You need to be a student of history, otherwise you’ll be blinded by the present and make these kinds of very wrong conclusions. The US was the world leader in railroads. US cities had state of the rail based public transit systems. LA had the most extensive streetcar system in the world. Even St Louis used to be as accessible as NYC. People changed because corporations lied to the public and meticulously destroyed public transit in the US. People can change again.

malcolmgreaves 2y ago
Too late to edit, but I wanted to say — apologies for being condescending. That was unnecessary and mean spirited of me and I’m sorry for doing that. Truthfully, I do hope at least I was able to communicate that it’s important to keep in mind that there have been other things we’ve done as a society and there are reasons why we are where we are today.

marssaxman 2y ago

That's a shallow, post-WWII vision of history. The US used to build great cities, then it bulldozed large parts of them to build the present highway-oriented dystopia. If one radical change was possible then, so is another, now. The car-centric, suburb-centric culture cannot be sustained economically or ecologically, and will therefore come to an end. How do we want that to happen - intentionally and progressively, or catastrophically?

ericmay 2y ago

I don't think your historical analysis is very correct. What you think of as car-centric suburban-centric culture didn't really arise until after World War II. It's really a relatively new thing, even considering how young the United States is. Obesity rates track historically with car-centric culture, should we just accept that is who we are, or can we work on cultural and policy changes that alleviate that problem? Other countries like the Netherlands went through the same car-centric design phase and realized it was too expensive and bad for the country so they reverted. We can and should keep cars, but our reliance on them for our very existence is quite fragile and unnecessary. Why does the average American have to spend $300 - $800/month or more in direct costs (insurance, gasoline, tires, loan payments, etc.) plus indirect costs (taxes for infrastructure) in order to go to the grocery store to buy a tomato or take their children to a playground? > If you want to do things like improve the environment, you can either scream and stamp your feet about it or you can meet people where they are and devise solutions that work in a car-centric culture. Instead of "screaming and stamping my feet" - isn't that what Road Rage is? I prefer to just work with organizations and political leaders to devise and implement solutions that reduce our need for car-centric culture and improve our economic resilience. That means fewer surface parking lots which are economic outflows, more bike lanes, slower speed limits, and better roadway design that incorporates segmented bike lanes, bus lanes, and more.

kolanos 2y ago
> Other countries like the Netherlands went through the same car-centric design phase and realized it was too expensive and bad for the country so they reverted. We can and should keep cars, but our reliance on them for our very existence is quite fragile and unnecessary. The Netherlands is roughly the size of Maryland. If The Netherlands was a U.S. state, it would be 42nd in terms of land area.
- pseudalopex 2y ago
  > The Netherlands is roughly the size of Maryland. How is this relevant in your mind? Do you imagine most Americans crossing entire states in their daily commute? Do you imagine people and goods do not cross European borders?

eszed 2y ago

Apart from the points made by sibling posters, markets reveal preferences. The eye-watering price of urban land suggests that many, many more people would prefer to live in cities than currently do. (Full disclosure: I am one of them. Reluctantly living in a suburb because kids; will move back to the City as soon as they get their thumb out and build enough housing to make it more affordable.)

citadel_melon 2y ago

Change is possible and change always feels difficult before it happens, but feels inevitable when looking back. Change would be harder in places like Texas, sure, but East coast cities and the Midwest have so many opportunities to continue to develop more and more public transportation options. Anyone who has had the privilege to live in a city where walking is easier than driving knows how much more freeing not having a car is than having one.

modriano 2y ago

> ... historically, the US is a car-centric suburban-centric culture, and that's just who we largely are. While we now do have a suburban-centric subculture, the car is just a tool that enables that subculture to easily access economic opportunities without having to interact with the classes segregated out of desirable locations by contemporary (explicitly racist) federal housing policies [0]. Although, I guess now that I look at it in that light (and noting the fact that every major city is still very racially segregated), I suppose that is just who we largely are and historically have been. [0] https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/Federal-Housing-Administration-Underwriting-Manual.pdf https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/Feder...

CHB0403085482 2y ago

> US is a car-centric suburban-centric culture It's a recent thing ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo