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> There would be no world where Apple could even threaten to disable it. They did not "threaten to disable it" and apple's stance on E2EE is not the issue here

> There would be no world where Apple could even threaten to disable it. They did not "threaten to disable it" and apple's stance on E2EE is not the issue here, UK's stance is. UK essentially made icloud E2EE by demanding apple to make a global backdoor into it, and essentially thus forced them to disable it. It is not disabled anywhere else in the world. Essentially the UK (and other states) want somehow to have their pie and eat it too, but that's just not possible.

doublerabbit 2y ago
If UK is already doing this, then what's them from banning all new iPhones? Some countries do.
- mikestew 2y ago
  then what's them from banning all new iPhones? The torches and pitchforks that are soon to follow? You might get away with that in oppressive “some countries”, but I just can’t imagine it ending well in someplace like the UK.
  - andrewflnr 2y ago
    I'd hope so, but you never know what you can get people to tolerate "for the children". This is, after all, the same UK population that voted these halfwits into power.
    - nicoburns 2y ago
      The children themselves would be in the streets protesting if you banned iPhones in the UK.
      - andrewflnr 2y ago
        Naturally we have to protect them from themselves. /s
      - andylynch 2y ago
        My kid just brought this up today- it’s absolutely a concern for their age group.
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        If it's indeed like you say, that sounds like a monopoly that should be addressed, not protected and allowed to do as it pleases. Sure, it's orthogonal to the EE backdoor issue, but Apple or any other company, having a monopoly of a nations youths means of communication is still an issue.
        thatguy0900 2y ago
        It's a monopoly to make a product that most children want over the competition? What would the solution even be here? Force iphones to be shittier?
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        Yes when you corner an entire market, regardless how you got there, it's still called a monopoly. Read a book before trying to be a smartass.
        jmye 2y ago
        The market hasn’t been “cornered” any more than breakfast has been “cornered” by eggs and bacon, but I dig the irony, here. How do you plan to address this supposed monopoly? Force all children born in February and March to use Android only? Demand that people respond better to Samsung’s marketing? I’m a bit curious how you de-“monopolize” something consumers are choosing over numerous, plentiful competition.
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        After you learn to read, read these, then look in the mirror: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/technology/apple-doj-lawsuit-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/technology/apple-doj-laws... https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple-monopolizing-smartphone-markets https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple...
    - giuseppe_petri 2y ago
      >these halfwits You're doing them a favour calling them halfwits, if most of the current crop of British politicians were light bulbs they wouldn't be bright enough the light the cupboard under my stairs.
      - HenryBemis 2y ago
        That is the BEST trick politicians ever play on voters. They prefer to be called "stupid" while the end up their political careers millionaires, and getting hire in large-ehvil-corps doing FA for 6-7 digits per year. I believe one of the filthiest snakes out there is Boris Johnson; yes the lunatic with the silly hair, who can recite HOMER in ANCIENT GREEK. And people still think he is 'stupid'? And all he does is 'mistakes'???? He is the filthiest of all snakes - except from his true masters (who is not the people). So.. yeah. If they end up broke and in jail, they are stupid. If they end up working for 7 digits, and you cannot afford a home.. well..
        mikrl 2y ago
        This conclusion reframed my views of certain politicians, popularly assumed to be blithering idiots. You don’t get there by being incompetent, you get there by being amazing at manipulation, cunning and whatever the positive coded synonyms of those words are. Butchering common phrases on live TV, or spouting verifiable falsehoods are all part of the game. I feel stupid myself for not playing it as well.
        andrewflnr 2y ago
        > amazing at manipulation, cunning and [etc] I think someone can be very good at those and also very stupid when it comes to, say, encryption and societal side effects thereof. In fact I think it's quite common. Intelligence is multi-dimensional.
        HenryBemis 2y ago
        An intelligent person can understand what is encryption if they really want to. A member of a parliament that is trying to revoke all encryption, everywhere, does it because his/her masters demand so, not because they care. Also, a good politician hates 'encryption' because they can't read your messages, read your mind, so you are dangerous because you can have independent thought which they cannot identify in order to manipulate. Facebook/Cambridge Analytica is an amazing example for this.
    - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
      We also voted Starmer into power, who is one of the few leaders of the free world with a spine. It's not that black and white.
      - PrivacyDingus 2y ago
        Can I ask what it is that makes you believe he has a spine? His fawning over Trump didn't dispell this? Or his constant changes in direction?
        yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
        Well he hasn’t taken Trump’s direction on the war, has he?
        rob_c 2y ago
        Lol. If trump said jump it wouldn't be how high it'd be straight in front of a bullet for this lot. It's pretending to claim we have a position other than pandering to both the EU and Trump whilst not actually taking responsibility to do anything (other than act as a banker)
        dambi0 2y ago
        You could just as well argue that changing direction or admitting you got things wrong requires more spine than blindly sticking to the same direction even in light of new information. Whether that applies to Starmer is a matter of opinion I suppose
      - andrewflnr 2y ago
        I mean, sure, the US also elected some people who oppose the wannabe fascist dictator in chief, but we did elect the wannabe fascist dictator. There are a lot of forces, but the vector sum is distinctly fuckwitted.
      - coldtea 2y ago
        Starmer has a spine? He's a warmongering careerist shill, hateful of his own people, who never did anything remotely worthy of the Labour party pre-Blair legacy... One of the least spine-owing politicians in the world
  - jalapenos 2y ago
    In the UK people would at most grumble about it severely and then let it happen.
    - rob_c 2y ago
      that is what the populous does best unfortunately
- jjani 2y ago
  Bread and circuses is what stops them. Whoever would get the iPhone banned is guaranteed never to win another election. Like banning beer or football. It would also be banning Macbooks, imagine what companies would have to say about that. The reason Apple isn't calling their bluff is not that they're scared the UK will actually ban their products. It's for optical and political reasons.
- maxglute 2y ago
  I don't know how UK electorate feels about this, global backdoor feels like much more unreasonable ask than domestic backdoor. Really takes particular hubris to ask for it in the first place.
  - moomin 2y ago
    There’s not really a difference. Once you’ve got the ability to selectively disable encryption and you’ve folded to one regime, you’re gonna fold to them all.
- kranke155 2y ago
  Hold the population used iPhones. Wouldn’t be very popular.
akimbostrawman 2y ago
Apples stance on E2EE is off by default. UK stance is no E2EE at all. If Apple wasn't a walled garden neither opinions would matter since the user could just decide for themselves without Apple or the government having power over it. I dislike how removing a optional feature is being equated to a backdoor since unlike this situation it would effect everyone without there knowledge. If no E2EE is a backdoor then Apple by default is backdoored (which it is but people here like to pretend otherwise).
- freehorse 2y ago
  > without Apple or the government having power over it As we are talking about E2EE for cloud storage, governments have very much control over it as in banning the use certain software by law and applying it through ISPs and other means. Not saying I wouldn't prefer a scenario where there was indeed some degree of such choice, but that would not change anything if a government decides it does not want E2EE. > Apples stance on E2EE is off by default True E2EE in the context of cloud storage has also certain downsides that one should acknowledge, notably if you lose access to your keys your data is effectively gone. When we talk about a large userbase that includes people who do not have a good understanding of this fact (prob most people) and this choice is not made by themselves in a more conscious manner, this could be a headache for a company (and customer service). Go to subreddits of E2EE encrypted services and notice how often people come up with having forgotten their passwords thus effectively their keys and their data (and that's an audience making a more conscious choice) and not actually understanding that forgetting password + losing any recovery keys = loss of data and that proton cannot give them access back (if they could, there could not be much privacy there). I am not saying that E2EE is bad, but that it is not necessarily the best choice for everybody, and thus I have no issue with apple's opt-in approach.
  - akimbostrawman 2y ago
    >governments have very much control over it as in banning the use certain software by law and applying it through ISPs and other means. They ofc can however it would take a new even more tyrannical law that applies to each citizen which would impact all encrption software not just apple. The Cryptowars have also shown that such laws are not only technical unenforcable but also economical disadvantageous.

doublerabbit 2y ago

If UK is already doing this, then what's them from banning all new iPhones? Some countries do.

mikestew 2y ago
then what's them from banning all new iPhones? The torches and pitchforks that are soon to follow? You might get away with that in oppressive “some countries”, but I just can’t imagine it ending well in someplace like the UK.
- andrewflnr 2y ago
  I'd hope so, but you never know what you can get people to tolerate "for the children". This is, after all, the same UK population that voted these halfwits into power.
  - nicoburns 2y ago
    The children themselves would be in the streets protesting if you banned iPhones in the UK.
    - andrewflnr 2y ago
      Naturally we have to protect them from themselves. /s
    - andylynch 2y ago
      My kid just brought this up today- it’s absolutely a concern for their age group.
      - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        If it's indeed like you say, that sounds like a monopoly that should be addressed, not protected and allowed to do as it pleases. Sure, it's orthogonal to the EE backdoor issue, but Apple or any other company, having a monopoly of a nations youths means of communication is still an issue.
        thatguy0900 2y ago
        It's a monopoly to make a product that most children want over the competition? What would the solution even be here? Force iphones to be shittier?
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        Yes when you corner an entire market, regardless how you got there, it's still called a monopoly. Read a book before trying to be a smartass.
        jmye 2y ago
        The market hasn’t been “cornered” any more than breakfast has been “cornered” by eggs and bacon, but I dig the irony, here. How do you plan to address this supposed monopoly? Force all children born in February and March to use Android only? Demand that people respond better to Samsung’s marketing? I’m a bit curious how you de-“monopolize” something consumers are choosing over numerous, plentiful competition.
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        After you learn to read, read these, then look in the mirror: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/technology/apple-doj-lawsuit-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/technology/apple-doj-laws... https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple-monopolizing-smartphone-markets https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple...
  - giuseppe_petri 2y ago
    >these halfwits You're doing them a favour calling them halfwits, if most of the current crop of British politicians were light bulbs they wouldn't be bright enough the light the cupboard under my stairs.
    - HenryBemis 2y ago
      That is the BEST trick politicians ever play on voters. They prefer to be called "stupid" while the end up their political careers millionaires, and getting hire in large-ehvil-corps doing FA for 6-7 digits per year. I believe one of the filthiest snakes out there is Boris Johnson; yes the lunatic with the silly hair, who can recite HOMER in ANCIENT GREEK. And people still think he is 'stupid'? And all he does is 'mistakes'???? He is the filthiest of all snakes - except from his true masters (who is not the people). So.. yeah. If they end up broke and in jail, they are stupid. If they end up working for 7 digits, and you cannot afford a home.. well..
      - mikrl 2y ago
        This conclusion reframed my views of certain politicians, popularly assumed to be blithering idiots. You don’t get there by being incompetent, you get there by being amazing at manipulation, cunning and whatever the positive coded synonyms of those words are. Butchering common phrases on live TV, or spouting verifiable falsehoods are all part of the game. I feel stupid myself for not playing it as well.
        andrewflnr 2y ago
        > amazing at manipulation, cunning and [etc] I think someone can be very good at those and also very stupid when it comes to, say, encryption and societal side effects thereof. In fact I think it's quite common. Intelligence is multi-dimensional.
        HenryBemis 2y ago
        An intelligent person can understand what is encryption if they really want to. A member of a parliament that is trying to revoke all encryption, everywhere, does it because his/her masters demand so, not because they care. Also, a good politician hates 'encryption' because they can't read your messages, read your mind, so you are dangerous because you can have independent thought which they cannot identify in order to manipulate. Facebook/Cambridge Analytica is an amazing example for this.
  - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
    We also voted Starmer into power, who is one of the few leaders of the free world with a spine. It's not that black and white.
    - PrivacyDingus 2y ago
      Can I ask what it is that makes you believe he has a spine? His fawning over Trump didn't dispell this? Or his constant changes in direction?
      - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
        Well he hasn’t taken Trump’s direction on the war, has he?
        rob_c 2y ago
        Lol. If trump said jump it wouldn't be how high it'd be straight in front of a bullet for this lot. It's pretending to claim we have a position other than pandering to both the EU and Trump whilst not actually taking responsibility to do anything (other than act as a banker)
      - dambi0 2y ago
        You could just as well argue that changing direction or admitting you got things wrong requires more spine than blindly sticking to the same direction even in light of new information. Whether that applies to Starmer is a matter of opinion I suppose
    - andrewflnr 2y ago
      I mean, sure, the US also elected some people who oppose the wannabe fascist dictator in chief, but we did elect the wannabe fascist dictator. There are a lot of forces, but the vector sum is distinctly fuckwitted.
    - coldtea 2y ago
      Starmer has a spine? He's a warmongering careerist shill, hateful of his own people, who never did anything remotely worthy of the Labour party pre-Blair legacy... One of the least spine-owing politicians in the world
- jalapenos 2y ago
  In the UK people would at most grumble about it severely and then let it happen.
  - rob_c 2y ago
    that is what the populous does best unfortunately
jjani 2y ago
Bread and circuses is what stops them. Whoever would get the iPhone banned is guaranteed never to win another election. Like banning beer or football. It would also be banning Macbooks, imagine what companies would have to say about that. The reason Apple isn't calling their bluff is not that they're scared the UK will actually ban their products. It's for optical and political reasons.
maxglute 2y ago
I don't know how UK electorate feels about this, global backdoor feels like much more unreasonable ask than domestic backdoor. Really takes particular hubris to ask for it in the first place.
- moomin 2y ago
  There’s not really a difference. Once you’ve got the ability to selectively disable encryption and you’ve folded to one regime, you’re gonna fold to them all.
kranke155 2y ago
Hold the population used iPhones. Wouldn’t be very popular.

akimbostrawman 2y ago

Apples stance on E2EE is off by default. UK stance is no E2EE at all. If Apple wasn't a walled garden neither opinions would matter since the user could just decide for themselves without Apple or the government having power over it. I dislike how removing a optional feature is being equated to a backdoor since unlike this situation it would effect everyone without there knowledge. If no E2EE is a backdoor then Apple by default is backdoored (which it is but people here like to pretend otherwise).

freehorse 2y ago
> without Apple or the government having power over it As we are talking about E2EE for cloud storage, governments have very much control over it as in banning the use certain software by law and applying it through ISPs and other means. Not saying I wouldn't prefer a scenario where there was indeed some degree of such choice, but that would not change anything if a government decides it does not want E2EE. > Apples stance on E2EE is off by default True E2EE in the context of cloud storage has also certain downsides that one should acknowledge, notably if you lose access to your keys your data is effectively gone. When we talk about a large userbase that includes people who do not have a good understanding of this fact (prob most people) and this choice is not made by themselves in a more conscious manner, this could be a headache for a company (and customer service). Go to subreddits of E2EE encrypted services and notice how often people come up with having forgotten their passwords thus effectively their keys and their data (and that's an audience making a more conscious choice) and not actually understanding that forgetting password + losing any recovery keys = loss of data and that proton cannot give them access back (if they could, there could not be much privacy there). I am not saying that E2EE is bad, but that it is not necessarily the best choice for everybody, and thus I have no issue with apple's opt-in approach.
- akimbostrawman 2y ago
  >governments have very much control over it as in banning the use certain software by law and applying it through ISPs and other means. They ofc can however it would take a new even more tyrannical law that applies to each citizen which would impact all encrption software not just apple. The Cryptowars have also shown that such laws are not only technical unenforcable but also economical disadvantageous.