6 ms·

Time for a Change: The long, contentious history of time shifts

32 points by crescit_eundo 2y ago

mike-the-mikado 2y ago
It is interesting to note that the UK was on summer-time all year between 1968 and 1971. At the end of the period, Parliament voted by a large majority to revert to the previous system. I think this is a case where people only understood the drawbacks through practical experience.
- bfdm 2y ago
  What were the drawbacks? I guess, what motivated the revert.
  - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    late darkness in the morning when you're trying to get your kids on the school bus, or get to work early
- tzs 2y ago
  Same in the US in the mid ‘70s, in an attempt to save energy due to an oil embargo from Arab oil exporters. It was widely disliked and dropped as soon as the oil crises was over.
Wistar 2y ago
Hmm. Well, I for one, my spouse for another, LOVE the time shifts—especially the one in the springtime. It is hard for me (us) to imagine not having the time change to DST every year. If the time change is discarded, I certainly hope it is for daylight and not standard time.
- billev2k 2y ago
  By all means, get up early if that fits your internal clock! But please, let's keep the clocks as close to the sun (ie, clock noon at solar noon) as practical.
  - Wistar 2y ago
    Standard time in the summer would mean sunrise at about 4AM here in the Seattle area. That'd be fairly disturbing to sleep.
    - anxoo 2y ago
      it is not written in the constitution, the bible, or the laws of physics that people have to wake at the time called 6am and have to leave work at a time called 5pm. people can choose to do activites at the time and level of daylight they choose. societies and groups can decide to change their schedules as the seasons change, as they see fit, without the government mandating that our clocks change, which is confusing as hell
      - lmz 2y ago
        But it is written in tons of contracts and maybe the gov redefining "5pm" is better than rewriting all these contracts.
    - jandrewrogers 2y ago
      That happens regardless in summer in Seattle, the sun rises very early. The sun also sets very late in summer to the point of being obnoxious and disturbing to sleep. Why does this not matter? No amount of fiddling with the clock changes the reality of how much sunlight there is. Lifestyle preferences around sunlight should not dictate the clock.
- gboss 2y ago
  I also prefer the time change system we have. I recognize there are obvious draw backs, but echoing a sibling comment about London. I’m confident if we stopped changing clocks annually, we’d resume the practice in a few years. It is just better to have more afternoon sun in the summer it makes being active with friends and family much easier. If we didn’t change to standard time in the winter, kids would be going to school in pitch black night in most of the country.
  - jedberg 2y ago
    > If we didn’t change to standard time in the winter, kids would be going to school in pitch black night in most of the country. Or, crazy idea I know, but what if we just shifted the school start time by an hour instead??
    - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
      not a bad idea but every time this idea is floated people freak out because it would make them later for work, etc. etc. etc.
      - jedberg 2y ago
        The assumption would be that work starts an hour later at the same time school shifts.
        mungoman2 2y ago
        Well if you accept collectively shift all times by an hour, you're effectively arguing for the system we have.
- adamtaylor_13 2y ago
  You’re the only person I’ve ever heard express this opinion… ever. Fascinating.
  - jes5199 2y ago
    the further north a person lives, the more likely they are to think the time change is helpful
fdafds 2y ago
[flagged]
Guthur 2y ago
I absolutely hate this Draconian practice.
edoceo 2y ago
I saw a map recently where a bunch of US states have passed legislation to stick on daylight time. It seems they are all waiting for federal approval. https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/5149485-daylight-saving-time-2025-these-states-are-trying-to-lock-the-clocks/amp/ https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/5149485-dayl...
netsharc 2y ago
Do Substack writers follow trends for monetization and write about DST in March? (A bit like YouTube tech reviewers having to talk about new iPhones everytime a new one comes out, gotta chase that ad money, like and subscribe!). This article is yet another discussion about DST, yet another place for people to say how much they hate it, etc etc.
jedberg 2y ago
To summarize all the invitble comments: "I hate the time shift, just pick one!" (Almost no one likes the time shift, about 90% of people want us to just stay with one. The problem is, 50% of those people want standard time year round and 50% want daylight time) "California and Florida already voted to stay on Daylight time year round, why don't they?" (Because congress has to pass a law to let them, states can only choose to stay on standard time year round) "Daylight time year round causes health problems" (There is some weakly supported evidence that this is true, that the human body really wants noon to be at solar noon)
- helpfulclippy 2y ago
  It’s been some time, but I testified in support of a bill on this in Oregon. My understanding at the time (2018?) was that California passed a ballot measure to force the legislature to consider it, but then the legislature let it die in committee. Oregon and Washington passed their bills, but they were contingent on California passing theirs too since no one wanted the I-5 corridor to pass through different time zones.
  - jedberg 2y ago
    Yes you are technically correct, the best kind of correct. California passed a ballot measure that allowed the Legislature to take up the issue, but only if the issue would be legal federally. Since the Federal congress hasn't made it legal, they haven't taken up the issue. The past two years they have tried to take up the opposite -- going to permanent standard time, in association with WA, OR, NV, and ID, so that most of the West would be on the same time zone year round. But that hasn't gotten out of committee.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > "I hate the time shift, just pick one!" (Almost no one likes the time shift, about 90% of people want us to just stay with one. The problem is, 50% of those people want standard time year round and 50% want daylight time) Time zone preference is only a problem for the people not saying "just pick one". If 90% of people say "just pick one" then we could flip a coin (or commission a study).
pkulak 2y ago
This is fun to see while I’m getting paged 2-dozen times every hour because of DST scheduling errors.
blahedo 2y ago
As someone who actually likes the time changes, as part of the annual cycle of stuff that changes and lets the year "breathe", I just want to set up and knock down my favourite anti-DST argument: "Why should we move the clocks off from (close to) the solar-noon standard? If people want to get up and go to work earlier so as not to 'waste sun', they can do that, and just coordinate it, no need to change the clocks." I hear this argument frequently, every year. But here's the thing, I've got a great way to do that coordinating. It's called daylight saving time. DST is our way to collectively, without every single business having to change their posted office hours and every school having to adjust their starting times and every club having to adjust their meeting times, agree to move all times one hour earlier/later so as to better line up with the sun. DST itself _is_ the mechanism by which we collectively make that shift. And it's a good idea.
- baskinator 2y ago
  It's jarring to my system. I like the natural progression of the seasons. > and just coordinate it I have never heard that argument before. Why does it need to be coordinated instead of a personal choice?
  - blululu 2y ago
    One of the primary functions of time keeping is coordination between people. The fact that nobody currently exerts their personal preference to not observe daylight savings time would indicate that the social forces overrule individual preference in this domain.
    - baskinator 2y ago
      It sounds like a strawman argument. I've only ever heard the argument of keeping the time fixed and then people can wake up earlier or later depending on their personal preference instead of it being coordinated (mandated) by law.
bee_rider 2y ago
Currently we seem to have more comments in favor of DST (notably, they take a contrarian position). It is sort of funny that hating these times shifts has become so obvious a take that few bother making it, and that many preemptively rebut.
sweeter 2y ago
Those posters in contrast with the widespread reception of Daylight savings time and the resistance against it, to the inability to stand against corporate interests. Its truly a timeless American classic... a tradition as old as time: using state propaganda to advance corporate interest and crushing the wants and needs of as many people as it takes.
__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
It's so wild to me that we ever thought it was a good idea to change the clock, rather than just changing when things are scheduled based on local constraints like where the sun is in the sky. Let's get rid of timezones altogether.
- mjevans 2y ago
  The idea is roughly, "we want an easy way to talk about meetings and 'business hours' without constantly remembering the offset of all the timezones and doing the math". E.G. a normal person wants to know roughly: morning, mid-day, evening +/- offset. Durations also matter, so an oversimplified version that uses numbers to represent those values appeals to some. 0800, 1400, 2000 (or in lay person time 8am 2pm 8pm) However the further from the equator anyone is, the less those numbers hold ANY stability or reality over the course of a year. E.G. even in Seattle it barely gets to twilight overnight during the summer, and the length of a day from bright enough to do anything to too dim to safely do stuff is insane. https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle (Take Jun 20: 1:43 of real night, nearly 16 hours of 'real day', and LOTS of practically day besides). Contrast to Orlando https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/orlando https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/orlando (June 20: 6:54 Night, nearly 14 hours of 'real day') Which is to say, DST doesn't really do much of anything, other than give very equatorial places a slightly easier way of making the evening brighter longer and making it MUCH harder to get to sleep on time with all that bright light.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

32 points by crescit_eundo 2y ago

It is interesting to note that the UK was on summer-time all year between 1968 and 1971. At the end of the period, Parliament voted by a large majority to revert to the previous system. I think this is a case where people only understood the drawbacks through practical experience.

bfdm 2y ago
What were the drawbacks? I guess, what motivated the revert.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  late darkness in the morning when you're trying to get your kids on the school bus, or get to work early
tzs 2y ago
Same in the US in the mid ‘70s, in an attempt to save energy due to an oil embargo from Arab oil exporters. It was widely disliked and dropped as soon as the oil crises was over.

Wistar 2y ago

Hmm. Well, I for one, my spouse for another, LOVE the time shifts—especially the one in the springtime. It is hard for me (us) to imagine not having the time change to DST every year. If the time change is discarded, I certainly hope it is for daylight and not standard time.

billev2k 2y ago
By all means, get up early if that fits your internal clock! But please, let's keep the clocks as close to the sun (ie, clock noon at solar noon) as practical.
- Wistar 2y ago
  Standard time in the summer would mean sunrise at about 4AM here in the Seattle area. That'd be fairly disturbing to sleep.
  - anxoo 2y ago
    it is not written in the constitution, the bible, or the laws of physics that people have to wake at the time called 6am and have to leave work at a time called 5pm. people can choose to do activites at the time and level of daylight they choose. societies and groups can decide to change their schedules as the seasons change, as they see fit, without the government mandating that our clocks change, which is confusing as hell
    - lmz 2y ago
      But it is written in tons of contracts and maybe the gov redefining "5pm" is better than rewriting all these contracts.
  - jandrewrogers 2y ago
    That happens regardless in summer in Seattle, the sun rises very early. The sun also sets very late in summer to the point of being obnoxious and disturbing to sleep. Why does this not matter? No amount of fiddling with the clock changes the reality of how much sunlight there is. Lifestyle preferences around sunlight should not dictate the clock.
gboss 2y ago
I also prefer the time change system we have. I recognize there are obvious draw backs, but echoing a sibling comment about London. I’m confident if we stopped changing clocks annually, we’d resume the practice in a few years. It is just better to have more afternoon sun in the summer it makes being active with friends and family much easier. If we didn’t change to standard time in the winter, kids would be going to school in pitch black night in most of the country.
- jedberg 2y ago
  > If we didn’t change to standard time in the winter, kids would be going to school in pitch black night in most of the country. Or, crazy idea I know, but what if we just shifted the school start time by an hour instead??
  - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    not a bad idea but every time this idea is floated people freak out because it would make them later for work, etc. etc. etc.
    - jedberg 2y ago
      The assumption would be that work starts an hour later at the same time school shifts.
      - mungoman2 2y ago
        Well if you accept collectively shift all times by an hour, you're effectively arguing for the system we have.
adamtaylor_13 2y ago
You’re the only person I’ve ever heard express this opinion… ever. Fascinating.
- jes5199 2y ago
  the further north a person lives, the more likely they are to think the time change is helpful

fdafds 2y ago

[flagged]

Guthur 2y ago

I absolutely hate this Draconian practice.

edoceo 2y ago

I saw a map recently where a bunch of US states have passed legislation to stick on daylight time. It seems they are all waiting for federal approval. https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/5149485-daylight-saving-time-2025-these-states-are-trying-to-lock-the-clocks/amp/ https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/5149485-dayl...

netsharc 2y ago

Do Substack writers follow trends for monetization and write about DST in March? (A bit like YouTube tech reviewers having to talk about new iPhones everytime a new one comes out, gotta chase that ad money, like and subscribe!). This article is yet another discussion about DST, yet another place for people to say how much they hate it, etc etc.

jedberg 2y ago

To summarize all the invitble comments: "I hate the time shift, just pick one!" (Almost no one likes the time shift, about 90% of people want us to just stay with one. The problem is, 50% of those people want standard time year round and 50% want daylight time) "California and Florida already voted to stay on Daylight time year round, why don't they?" (Because congress has to pass a law to let them, states can only choose to stay on standard time year round) "Daylight time year round causes health problems" (There is some weakly supported evidence that this is true, that the human body really wants noon to be at solar noon)

helpfulclippy 2y ago
It’s been some time, but I testified in support of a bill on this in Oregon. My understanding at the time (2018?) was that California passed a ballot measure to force the legislature to consider it, but then the legislature let it die in committee. Oregon and Washington passed their bills, but they were contingent on California passing theirs too since no one wanted the I-5 corridor to pass through different time zones.
- jedberg 2y ago
  Yes you are technically correct, the best kind of correct. California passed a ballot measure that allowed the Legislature to take up the issue, but only if the issue would be legal federally. Since the Federal congress hasn't made it legal, they haven't taken up the issue. The past two years they have tried to take up the opposite -- going to permanent standard time, in association with WA, OR, NV, and ID, so that most of the West would be on the same time zone year round. But that hasn't gotten out of committee.
Dylan16807 2y ago
> "I hate the time shift, just pick one!" (Almost no one likes the time shift, about 90% of people want us to just stay with one. The problem is, 50% of those people want standard time year round and 50% want daylight time) Time zone preference is only a problem for the people not saying "just pick one". If 90% of people say "just pick one" then we could flip a coin (or commission a study).

pkulak 2y ago

This is fun to see while I’m getting paged 2-dozen times every hour because of DST scheduling errors.

blahedo 2y ago

As someone who actually likes the time changes, as part of the annual cycle of stuff that changes and lets the year "breathe", I just want to set up and knock down my favourite anti-DST argument: "Why should we move the clocks off from (close to) the solar-noon standard? If people want to get up and go to work earlier so as not to 'waste sun', they can do that, and just coordinate it, no need to change the clocks." I hear this argument frequently, every year. But here's the thing, I've got a great way to do that coordinating. It's called daylight saving time. DST is our way to collectively, without every single business having to change their posted office hours and every school having to adjust their starting times and every club having to adjust their meeting times, agree to move all times one hour earlier/later so as to better line up with the sun. DST itself _is_ the mechanism by which we collectively make that shift. And it's a good idea.

baskinator 2y ago
It's jarring to my system. I like the natural progression of the seasons. > and just coordinate it I have never heard that argument before. Why does it need to be coordinated instead of a personal choice?
- blululu 2y ago
  One of the primary functions of time keeping is coordination between people. The fact that nobody currently exerts their personal preference to not observe daylight savings time would indicate that the social forces overrule individual preference in this domain.
  - baskinator 2y ago
    It sounds like a strawman argument. I've only ever heard the argument of keeping the time fixed and then people can wake up earlier or later depending on their personal preference instead of it being coordinated (mandated) by law.

bee_rider 2y ago

Currently we seem to have more comments in favor of DST (notably, they take a contrarian position). It is sort of funny that hating these times shifts has become so obvious a take that few bother making it, and that many preemptively rebut.

sweeter 2y ago

Those posters in contrast with the widespread reception of Daylight savings time and the resistance against it, to the inability to stand against corporate interests. Its truly a timeless American classic... a tradition as old as time: using state propaganda to advance corporate interest and crushing the wants and needs of as many people as it takes.

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago

It's so wild to me that we ever thought it was a good idea to change the clock, rather than just changing when things are scheduled based on local constraints like where the sun is in the sky. Let's get rid of timezones altogether.

mjevans 2y ago
The idea is roughly, "we want an easy way to talk about meetings and 'business hours' without constantly remembering the offset of all the timezones and doing the math". E.G. a normal person wants to know roughly: morning, mid-day, evening +/- offset. Durations also matter, so an oversimplified version that uses numbers to represent those values appeals to some. 0800, 1400, 2000 (or in lay person time 8am 2pm 8pm) However the further from the equator anyone is, the less those numbers hold ANY stability or reality over the course of a year. E.G. even in Seattle it barely gets to twilight overnight during the summer, and the length of a day from bright enough to do anything to too dim to safely do stuff is insane. https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle (Take Jun 20: 1:43 of real night, nearly 16 hours of 'real day', and LOTS of practically day besides). Contrast to Orlando https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/orlando https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/orlando (June 20: 6:54 Night, nearly 14 hours of 'real day') Which is to say, DST doesn't really do much of anything, other than give very equatorial places a slightly easier way of making the evening brighter longer and making it MUCH harder to get to sleep on time with all that bright light.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]