4 ms·

The Nightmare Bicycle

67 points by surprisetalk 2y ago

jfil 2y ago
This reminds me of the Japanese principle of "fuben eki". Sometimes it makes sense to make a task more difficult in order to increase mastery or improve a person's understanding of how the process works.
- mkonecny 2y ago
  On this note, I used to make android apps on the oldest slowest phone I could find. Was always complimented how snappy my apps felt since most users had a modern phone
  - dtgriscom 2y ago
    Developers should be forced to work on old, doggy-slow machines. (Except for me, of course.)
xnx 2y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43259365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43259365
minebreaker 2y ago
Interesting that the tech these days is going in the opposite direction. These trends to hide technical details (e.g. files on iPhone) can get really frustrating when it doesn't work. Almost a mockery.
- ibash 2y ago
  There's a similar trend in devtools that's absolutely frustrating.
- black_puppydog 2y ago
  Apple's hate for the concept of files has me up in arms ever since I realized this is why my parents are so confused anytime anything on their iPhone doesn't work.
  - Sharlin 2y ago
    Younger people grown with mobile OSes don’t understand files anymore, or the concept of directories or a filesystem shared by all programs.
  - Gigachad 2y ago
    They did bring a file manager to iOS a while back and it does work pretty well with all the apps.
deepsun 2y ago
Tried to figure out what temperature my Ninja slow cooker cooks at. Not possible, only Hi and Lo. Internets say different models use different temperature.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  Mine at least has a temperature setting. But it also has modes, Reheat, Air fry, Roast, etc. What do they mean? I have absolutely no idea. I would guess it's the fan speed but it sounds exactly the same in each mode...
- aqueueaqueue 2y ago
  Hi bacteria and Lo bacteria
sxp 2y ago
> Along the same lines: one of the worst misconceptions in product design is that a microwave needs to have a button for every thing you could possibly cook: “popcorn”... On a tangent, the popcorn button actually has a purpose on well-designed microwaves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limpr1L8Pss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limpr1L8Pss
ahartmetz 2y ago
I like to consult the table that explains what every program really does for any washing machines that I use :) I want relatively short, more water than minimum, medium-gentle agitation, medium RPM spin dry. It has many names.
- Tade0 2y ago
  Same query, but for my dryer. Particularly the "Jeans" program. It is explicitly stated on every pair of jeans which I own that I should never attempt this. And yet, the program exists. Did they find a workaround? Or are they selling an empty promise?
  - Aaargh20318 2y ago
    The problem with clothing labels is that they don't know the type of equipment you have. Lots of stuff that says on the label to never put in the dryer works fine in my heat-pump dryer, because it doesn't get nearly as hot as a conventional dryer.
jchw 2y ago
The popcorn button on a microwave actually does something unique, or at least it does on microwaves with a real popcorn button. I think microwave designs are only bad insofar as they have been made so cheap that the special functions have been made vastly less useful. Obligatory Technology Connections. https://youtube.com/watch?v=UiS27feX8o0 https://youtube.com/watch?v=UiS27feX8o0
roydivision 2y ago
I couldn't agree more. However the reason we have a Popcorn option on the microwave is because it makes the difference at the point of sale, not at the point of use. Most people when presented with two devices that essentially do the same thing, but one has more options will chose the one with more options because they have been lead to believe it's better. Design is so often polluted by marketing. The direction of progress from concept to design to marketing to sale should be one way only.
- throw94040 2y ago
  Good microwaves have a microphone to detect popping. Popcorn option on microwave is a real feature. Just do not buy cheap Amazon junk!
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    It used to be a real feature, but so many microwave makers made fake ones that popcorn sellers have been printing “do not use the popcorn button ” on their instructions for a while. About the popcorn button: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Limpr1L8Pss&pp=ygUYcG9wY29ybiBidXR0b24gbWljcm93YXZl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Limpr1L8Pss&pp=ygUYcG9wY29ybiB...
    - aqueueaqueue 2y ago
      Then a microwave manufacturer says "do not worry about the warning saying do not use popcorn mode because our one works!" But in seriousness don't rely on any auto turn off feature if it failing means a fire!
IshKebab 2y ago
One-based indexing is an example of this. It's always argued as being familiar, as if people learning to program couldn't deal with adding 1.
- crowselect 2y ago
  Meanwhile off-by-one errors are ludicrously common… People can learn to deal with adding 1, but it’s still a cognitive encumbrance that loads us down and makes life harder. Not that I’m advocating for one-based indexing. At this point consistency is more important than whatever the easier solution is.
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    > Meanwhile off-by-one errors are ludicrously common… Off by one errors in general have nothing to do with being 1 or 0-based indexed. In French off-by-one error is called “the post and fence problem” because there's always one more post than piece of fence (unless your fence makes a loop). It arises because it's easy to confuse the number of intervals between elements and the number of elements (which is also: do I need to include the bounds or not). 1-based indexing isn't going to help at all in the general case (it will help for the most basic error which is getting the last element of an array with `a[a.length]`, but that's it)
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    Off-by-one errors are more likely with 1-based indexing because they don't have the nice properties of 0-based/right open intervals that mean you don't have to add or subtract 1 all over the place. For example what is the index of pixel X,Y in an image buffer? X + Ystride right? Nope! It's X + (Y-1)stride. What's the range of the Ith block of N elements? [in, in + n)? Nope! It's [(i-1)n+1, in]. I have to deal with that nonsense in Matlab all the time. Nightmare.
  - Sharlin 2y ago
    One-based indexing simply has its own set of off-by-one bugs.
- aqueueaqueue 2y ago
russdill 2y ago
I get what the author is getting at, but I really think this is a poor comparison. Selecting a gear on a bike gives immediate feedback. Selecting a power level and cook time on a microwave...does not. Not needing to remember a formula for figuring out a cook time and power level based on the quantity of meat I'm defrosting is a really useful feature. Plus, I can always select whatever levels I want manually on the microwave, and when using a pre-programmed function I can see what the microwave is doing. I think an example that makes it clear that the author needs to more carefully work out their point is the Honeywell AllergenPlus line of airfilters. For a while, they had three settings, "Allergen", "General Clean" and "Germ" which are merely 3 fan speed settings. This method was so disjointed form reality, the eventually started shipping them with stickers covering it up with "Low", "Medium", and "High" (I forget what the actual order was...). It's a real life nightmare bicycle, but of course there is no risk of losing intuitive understanding because of instant feedback. The user will quickly figure out which setting is low, which is medium, and which is high based on simply pressing the buttons. A similar thing will happen with the bicycle. People don't actually look at the numbers and select a number, they just shift gears until it "feels" right. This really needs a better product example, perhaps just AI over search.
- cycomanic 2y ago
  You must be one of the few people who use the "program" buttons on a microwave then. I personally don't know anyone and all the people I talk to really just want a two wheel microwave. Even if I tried the programs they almost never worked accurately anyway. Admittedly newer inverter microwaves are the exception, the defrost mode actually does work (and is the one program I use on these microwaves).
  - Sharlin 2y ago
    Not sure why you were downvoted, my experience is the same. What people (including myself) want is power and time (and usually there’s a defrost mode on the power dial).
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    I also don't use the program buttons often, although I occasionally go mad and try one. They never seem to work particularly well.
makeitdouble 2y ago
The author is advocating for simpler single-purpose products I guess. The microwave example just doesn't make sense when what you have isn't a single "just push the power button" machine, but a combined microwave/oven for instance. You'll want clear mode management, temperature management when defrosting meat, pre-heating and convection when cooking a whole chicken etc. Anecdotally, a lot of people don't really understand/care about bicycle gears, and stick it to the heaviest and call it a day (on city bikes it's not that heavy, they can dance when it's tougher, and just get off and push the bike when it's really hard). We've seen the same cycle for cars, where people only caring about going from A to B will enjoy automatic transmissions better. All in all, I agree single purpose products are great when you can afford one and it does the job. Paradoxically it also helps expand the use cases as the user comes to better understand how it works and how it can be "abused".
- pxndx 2y ago
  No, the author is advocating for the simple two dial (power and time) microwaves, which give you all the control at the cost of having to understand how it works. The author is saying that in the effort to "simplify" stuff, microwaves now add a potato button and a chicken button, but then you want to cook an eggplant and don't know how.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    I think we're in agreement. To me the two dial microwave is the single purpose tool. As a user I just happen to have very little kitchen space, so I ended up with a microwave/oven combination by necessity, and as it does exponentially a lot more than the two dial microwave, it also requires more complex modes and buttons and dials and I'm fine with it, as that's exactly why I paid for it. The "chicken" mode isn't some dumb time/power setting, as mine does the pre-heating, accepts additional watering, and adjusts the temperature curve so it's crisp at the end of the cycle. Advocating for simple tools is fine IMHO, as long as we understand not everything needs to be overly simple. PS: perhaps the part I'm missing is that while researching before buying my microwave/oven, I never saw a "dumb" machine that had useless buttons that could be exchanged for just a time/power setting. Each special modes usually have specific tweaks, and going through the manual it was made abundantly clear.
kqr 2y ago
I question the degree to which even numbered gears matter on bicycles. I have two bicycles, none of them have numbered gears. One has modern integrated brake-shifters with two separate parts that can be clicked inwards to shift up and down. There's no feedback on which gear it's on, but I know which part to click to make pedaling harder, and which part to click to make it lighter. At the stops, the shifter just won't move. The drawback is that if I want to know how close I am to the end of the range, I have to look down at the chainrings. The other bike has un-indexed downtube shifters. These are tiny, frame-mounted levers that are moved smoothly (no clicks) forwards or back and they directly control the derailers which move the chain across gears. This is my favourite interaction pattern for bike gears, because you can put your hand down and feel the position of both levers and immediately know which gear combination you're in. Incredibly practical in heavier traffic to never need to take eyes off the road.
- dsego 2y ago
  The old style friction shifters should also be much easier to maintain and repair. Modern indexed shifters are more likely to have issues where due to cable and housing stretch the indexing gets unaligned and you have to adjust it periodically. This might not be an issue any more with electronic shifting components. On the other hand, those are expensive and require battery power, so you need to remember to recharge. Fiction shifters also allow you to trim by feel and sound to always get the perfect chain position. The pathlesspedaled youtube channel has many videos on the advantages of friction shifters for causal riders and touring cyclists.
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    Electronic shifters don't have any issue with cable stretch and typically don't need any adjustment once they're setup on a bike. Also, electronic shifters automatically adjust the trim on the front derailleur so that the chain line is optimal.
  - IamTC 2y ago
    After >16000km mileage, my Shimano Saint shifter gave up on me 50km into a 200km audax. It is easier to shift gears with an indexed shifter. However, audax riding requires higher reliability. My 35-349 wheels (I'm riding a Brompton clone) makes it hard for me to install modern electronic shifting, except maybe Ltwoo's AE. I've since switched to a Microshift 12S mountain bike friction shifter. Quite happy so far. It has click mode and pure friction. With my Shimano Saint derailleur (10s), due to the clutch, it took me some getting used to due to the hand strength needed. A spare friction shifter is also lighter to carry. An unintentional plus point is the ability to move to an 11s (jockey wheels on the Saint derailleurs seems to be able to work with 11s chain) the next time my cassette and chain needs replacing. 11s will give me less dead zone in between each shift. Vis-a-vis an index shifter, I like it that I now have a way (apart from cadence, gradient and speed data from my bike comp) to know approximately which gear I'm at by just feeling the lever position. With the time I've had with this setup, I'm almost always able to shift whatever gear by muscle memory. In reality, for my city's (Saigon) traffic, I find myself shifting gears more and hence my hands does get a bit sore. The bumps and uneven drain holes can also cause the friction shifter to shift unintentionally. I could tighten it but it'd at the expense of my hand comfort. However, in an ultra distance ride (>=200km), there's less gear shifts and hence less of an issue. I'm also able to use both hands to take turns shifting gears which is more important on a super long ride.
f4c39012 2y ago
bike gears are numbered now? Is 1 high, or 8? I press the little button at the front to pop one gear up, and push that big thumb lever to push the chain back up the cassette, it's intuitive. If I need to check if the bike is in the right gear (not concerned exactly which one) I pedal a little. What product manager added _numbers_ to bike gears?
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  You can ignore the numbering if you've got no interest in which gear you're currently using. Usually the lowest number will be the "lowest" gear - the one that is easiest to pedal up-hill which will be the largest cog on the rear cassette.
- Sharlin 2y ago
  Not sure if you’re being ironic, but bikes with hub gears (usually three to seven gears) have had gear numbers in the shifter for decades.
- locallost 2y ago
  I don't understand the complaint. It's useful especially for people not riding every day or dozens of km on weekends. Sure, press or rotate to go up or down, but then you end up cross-chained on the largest chainring and largest cog. I have had bikes that did not have numbers, but at least had indicators giving you an approximation where you're at. I sometimes miss that on my road bike when I'm not sure if I should change the gear on the front or not. When you ride enough you get a feel for it, but again not everyone does that.
  - f4c39012 2y ago
    i guess i ride enough - not dozens of kms or daily, but over many years - to intuit the gear, which is helped by the gear mechanism jumping to discrete positions. The first bikes i rode with gears were Marins back in the 90s which had no indicators, there was an old 3-speed Sturmey Archer (had to Google this one) where the gears are within the hub, I don't recall a gear indicator for that, but perhaps there was
- 2y ago
JodieBenitez 2y ago
People cook with microwaves ?
- tim333 2y ago
  They are quite good for potatoes.
  - JodieBenitez 2y ago
    I need to test that.
metalman 2y ago
design design design how I love good design how I love designing and building things how I love dissasembling things, and fixing and modifying things, re purposing parts how I love wrecking yards, with the worlds guts casualy spread out and on display, and making friends with the denisins thereof, some intricate shiny thing bieng rended for its intrinsic worth and comments such as "ya...we get a lot of THOSE..", the whole thing bieng quite litteraly a modern archiological dig for treasure, and at $10000/ton for #2 copper, the digging is quite enthusiastic........but certain things, get reverantly.,...removed from the maw, set aside and traded back into the world, to be rebuilt and put into service..... The main issue I see is that the old axiom of supply, following demand has been perverted by advertising, and it is now possible to supply demand for ANYTHING, and largely face no repercussions, as the market is so large, and moving so fast, that concensus amongst end users dissatisfaction cant coaless to the point of financial penalties on the designers and pervayors of junk. And as junk, can be made junkier, and therefor cheaper, good stuff is pushed into unprofitability......except in industrial and comercial versions of products, where there is no room for shenanigans involving durability OR useabality.
MarkusWandel 2y ago
I know this isn't really about bike gears, but... "people will get it" - yes and no. Since the shift-of-least-resistance is the one to smaller sprockets, a lot of clueless cyclists with 3x gearing are riding around in small-small gear combinations which are the worst - least efficient and most wear-prone. Maybe that's why the bike industry went to 1x drivetrains. That, or being able to sell you $250 cassettes where a $20 one used to do.
ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
I recently bought myself a mini "smart" rice cooker from Aliexpress. Works really well, but the buttons are just labelled in chinese as it's only meant to be sold in that market. Even the app needed to have its location changed so that it would pair with the device, but at least it let me keep "English". The app has a whole list of different rice varieties so that it presumably customises the process for different grains, but it's great as I choose either the quick or the slow cooking method and let it do it's thing.

67 points by surprisetalk 2y ago

jfil 2y ago

This reminds me of the Japanese principle of "fuben eki". Sometimes it makes sense to make a task more difficult in order to increase mastery or improve a person's understanding of how the process works.

mkonecny 2y ago
On this note, I used to make android apps on the oldest slowest phone I could find. Was always complimented how snappy my apps felt since most users had a modern phone
- dtgriscom 2y ago
  Developers should be forced to work on old, doggy-slow machines. (Except for me, of course.)

xnx 2y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43259365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43259365

minebreaker 2y ago

Interesting that the tech these days is going in the opposite direction. These trends to hide technical details (e.g. files on iPhone) can get really frustrating when it doesn't work. Almost a mockery.

ibash 2y ago
There's a similar trend in devtools that's absolutely frustrating.
black_puppydog 2y ago
Apple's hate for the concept of files has me up in arms ever since I realized this is why my parents are so confused anytime anything on their iPhone doesn't work.
- Sharlin 2y ago
  Younger people grown with mobile OSes don’t understand files anymore, or the concept of directories or a filesystem shared by all programs.
- Gigachad 2y ago
  They did bring a file manager to iOS a while back and it does work pretty well with all the apps.

deepsun 2y ago

Tried to figure out what temperature my Ninja slow cooker cooks at. Not possible, only Hi and Lo. Internets say different models use different temperature.

IshKebab 2y ago
Mine at least has a temperature setting. But it also has modes, Reheat, Air fry, Roast, etc. What do they mean? I have absolutely no idea. I would guess it's the fan speed but it sounds exactly the same in each mode...
aqueueaqueue 2y ago
Hi bacteria and Lo bacteria

sxp 2y ago

> Along the same lines: one of the worst misconceptions in product design is that a microwave needs to have a button for every thing you could possibly cook: “popcorn”... On a tangent, the popcorn button actually has a purpose on well-designed microwaves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limpr1L8Pss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limpr1L8Pss

ahartmetz 2y ago

I like to consult the table that explains what every program really does for any washing machines that I use :) I want relatively short, more water than minimum, medium-gentle agitation, medium RPM spin dry. It has many names.

Tade0 2y ago
Same query, but for my dryer. Particularly the "Jeans" program. It is explicitly stated on every pair of jeans which I own that I should never attempt this. And yet, the program exists. Did they find a workaround? Or are they selling an empty promise?
- Aaargh20318 2y ago
  The problem with clothing labels is that they don't know the type of equipment you have. Lots of stuff that says on the label to never put in the dryer works fine in my heat-pump dryer, because it doesn't get nearly as hot as a conventional dryer.

jchw 2y ago

The popcorn button on a microwave actually does something unique, or at least it does on microwaves with a real popcorn button. I think microwave designs are only bad insofar as they have been made so cheap that the special functions have been made vastly less useful. Obligatory Technology Connections. https://youtube.com/watch?v=UiS27feX8o0 https://youtube.com/watch?v=UiS27feX8o0

roydivision 2y ago

I couldn't agree more. However the reason we have a Popcorn option on the microwave is because it makes the difference at the point of sale, not at the point of use. Most people when presented with two devices that essentially do the same thing, but one has more options will chose the one with more options because they have been lead to believe it's better. Design is so often polluted by marketing. The direction of progress from concept to design to marketing to sale should be one way only.

throw94040 2y ago
Good microwaves have a microphone to detect popping. Popcorn option on microwave is a real feature. Just do not buy cheap Amazon junk!
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  It used to be a real feature, but so many microwave makers made fake ones that popcorn sellers have been printing “do not use the popcorn button ” on their instructions for a while. About the popcorn button: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Limpr1L8Pss&pp=ygUYcG9wY29ybiBidXR0b24gbWljcm93YXZl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Limpr1L8Pss&pp=ygUYcG9wY29ybiB...
  - aqueueaqueue 2y ago
    Then a microwave manufacturer says "do not worry about the warning saying do not use popcorn mode because our one works!" But in seriousness don't rely on any auto turn off feature if it failing means a fire!

IshKebab 2y ago

One-based indexing is an example of this. It's always argued as being familiar, as if people learning to program couldn't deal with adding 1.

crowselect 2y ago
Meanwhile off-by-one errors are ludicrously common… People can learn to deal with adding 1, but it’s still a cognitive encumbrance that loads us down and makes life harder. Not that I’m advocating for one-based indexing. At this point consistency is more important than whatever the easier solution is.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  > Meanwhile off-by-one errors are ludicrously common… Off by one errors in general have nothing to do with being 1 or 0-based indexed. In French off-by-one error is called “the post and fence problem” because there's always one more post than piece of fence (unless your fence makes a loop). It arises because it's easy to confuse the number of intervals between elements and the number of elements (which is also: do I need to include the bounds or not). 1-based indexing isn't going to help at all in the general case (it will help for the most basic error which is getting the last element of an array with `a[a.length]`, but that's it)
- IshKebab 2y ago
  Off-by-one errors are more likely with 1-based indexing because they don't have the nice properties of 0-based/right open intervals that mean you don't have to add or subtract 1 all over the place. For example what is the index of pixel X,Y in an image buffer? X + Ystride right? Nope! It's X + (Y-1)stride. What's the range of the Ith block of N elements? [in, in + n)? Nope! It's [(i-1)n+1, in]. I have to deal with that nonsense in Matlab all the time. Nightmare.
- Sharlin 2y ago
  One-based indexing simply has its own set of off-by-one bugs.
aqueueaqueue 2y ago

russdill 2y ago

I get what the author is getting at, but I really think this is a poor comparison. Selecting a gear on a bike gives immediate feedback. Selecting a power level and cook time on a microwave...does not. Not needing to remember a formula for figuring out a cook time and power level based on the quantity of meat I'm defrosting is a really useful feature. Plus, I can always select whatever levels I want manually on the microwave, and when using a pre-programmed function I can see what the microwave is doing. I think an example that makes it clear that the author needs to more carefully work out their point is the Honeywell AllergenPlus line of airfilters. For a while, they had three settings, "Allergen", "General Clean" and "Germ" which are merely 3 fan speed settings. This method was so disjointed form reality, the eventually started shipping them with stickers covering it up with "Low", "Medium", and "High" (I forget what the actual order was...). It's a real life nightmare bicycle, but of course there is no risk of losing intuitive understanding because of instant feedback. The user will quickly figure out which setting is low, which is medium, and which is high based on simply pressing the buttons. A similar thing will happen with the bicycle. People don't actually look at the numbers and select a number, they just shift gears until it "feels" right. This really needs a better product example, perhaps just AI over search.

cycomanic 2y ago
You must be one of the few people who use the "program" buttons on a microwave then. I personally don't know anyone and all the people I talk to really just want a two wheel microwave. Even if I tried the programs they almost never worked accurately anyway. Admittedly newer inverter microwaves are the exception, the defrost mode actually does work (and is the one program I use on these microwaves).
- Sharlin 2y ago
  Not sure why you were downvoted, my experience is the same. What people (including myself) want is power and time (and usually there’s a defrost mode on the power dial).
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  I also don't use the program buttons often, although I occasionally go mad and try one. They never seem to work particularly well.

makeitdouble 2y ago

The author is advocating for simpler single-purpose products I guess. The microwave example just doesn't make sense when what you have isn't a single "just push the power button" machine, but a combined microwave/oven for instance. You'll want clear mode management, temperature management when defrosting meat, pre-heating and convection when cooking a whole chicken etc. Anecdotally, a lot of people don't really understand/care about bicycle gears, and stick it to the heaviest and call it a day (on city bikes it's not that heavy, they can dance when it's tougher, and just get off and push the bike when it's really hard). We've seen the same cycle for cars, where people only caring about going from A to B will enjoy automatic transmissions better. All in all, I agree single purpose products are great when you can afford one and it does the job. Paradoxically it also helps expand the use cases as the user comes to better understand how it works and how it can be "abused".

pxndx 2y ago
No, the author is advocating for the simple two dial (power and time) microwaves, which give you all the control at the cost of having to understand how it works. The author is saying that in the effort to "simplify" stuff, microwaves now add a potato button and a chicken button, but then you want to cook an eggplant and don't know how.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I think we're in agreement. To me the two dial microwave is the single purpose tool. As a user I just happen to have very little kitchen space, so I ended up with a microwave/oven combination by necessity, and as it does exponentially a lot more than the two dial microwave, it also requires more complex modes and buttons and dials and I'm fine with it, as that's exactly why I paid for it. The "chicken" mode isn't some dumb time/power setting, as mine does the pre-heating, accepts additional watering, and adjusts the temperature curve so it's crisp at the end of the cycle. Advocating for simple tools is fine IMHO, as long as we understand not everything needs to be overly simple. PS: perhaps the part I'm missing is that while researching before buying my microwave/oven, I never saw a "dumb" machine that had useless buttons that could be exchanged for just a time/power setting. Each special modes usually have specific tweaks, and going through the manual it was made abundantly clear.

kqr 2y ago

I question the degree to which even numbered gears matter on bicycles. I have two bicycles, none of them have numbered gears. One has modern integrated brake-shifters with two separate parts that can be clicked inwards to shift up and down. There's no feedback on which gear it's on, but I know which part to click to make pedaling harder, and which part to click to make it lighter. At the stops, the shifter just won't move. The drawback is that if I want to know how close I am to the end of the range, I have to look down at the chainrings. The other bike has un-indexed downtube shifters. These are tiny, frame-mounted levers that are moved smoothly (no clicks) forwards or back and they directly control the derailers which move the chain across gears. This is my favourite interaction pattern for bike gears, because you can put your hand down and feel the position of both levers and immediately know which gear combination you're in. Incredibly practical in heavier traffic to never need to take eyes off the road.

dsego 2y ago
The old style friction shifters should also be much easier to maintain and repair. Modern indexed shifters are more likely to have issues where due to cable and housing stretch the indexing gets unaligned and you have to adjust it periodically. This might not be an issue any more with electronic shifting components. On the other hand, those are expensive and require battery power, so you need to remember to recharge. Fiction shifters also allow you to trim by feel and sound to always get the perfect chain position. The pathlesspedaled youtube channel has many videos on the advantages of friction shifters for causal riders and touring cyclists.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  Electronic shifters don't have any issue with cable stretch and typically don't need any adjustment once they're setup on a bike. Also, electronic shifters automatically adjust the trim on the front derailleur so that the chain line is optimal.
- IamTC 2y ago
  After >16000km mileage, my Shimano Saint shifter gave up on me 50km into a 200km audax. It is easier to shift gears with an indexed shifter. However, audax riding requires higher reliability. My 35-349 wheels (I'm riding a Brompton clone) makes it hard for me to install modern electronic shifting, except maybe Ltwoo's AE. I've since switched to a Microshift 12S mountain bike friction shifter. Quite happy so far. It has click mode and pure friction. With my Shimano Saint derailleur (10s), due to the clutch, it took me some getting used to due to the hand strength needed. A spare friction shifter is also lighter to carry. An unintentional plus point is the ability to move to an 11s (jockey wheels on the Saint derailleurs seems to be able to work with 11s chain) the next time my cassette and chain needs replacing. 11s will give me less dead zone in between each shift. Vis-a-vis an index shifter, I like it that I now have a way (apart from cadence, gradient and speed data from my bike comp) to know approximately which gear I'm at by just feeling the lever position. With the time I've had with this setup, I'm almost always able to shift whatever gear by muscle memory. In reality, for my city's (Saigon) traffic, I find myself shifting gears more and hence my hands does get a bit sore. The bumps and uneven drain holes can also cause the friction shifter to shift unintentionally. I could tighten it but it'd at the expense of my hand comfort. However, in an ultra distance ride (>=200km), there's less gear shifts and hence less of an issue. I'm also able to use both hands to take turns shifting gears which is more important on a super long ride.

f4c39012 2y ago

bike gears are numbered now? Is 1 high, or 8? I press the little button at the front to pop one gear up, and push that big thumb lever to push the chain back up the cassette, it's intuitive. If I need to check if the bike is in the right gear (not concerned exactly which one) I pedal a little. What product manager added _numbers_ to bike gears?

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
You can ignore the numbering if you've got no interest in which gear you're currently using. Usually the lowest number will be the "lowest" gear - the one that is easiest to pedal up-hill which will be the largest cog on the rear cassette.
Sharlin 2y ago
Not sure if you’re being ironic, but bikes with hub gears (usually three to seven gears) have had gear numbers in the shifter for decades.
locallost 2y ago
I don't understand the complaint. It's useful especially for people not riding every day or dozens of km on weekends. Sure, press or rotate to go up or down, but then you end up cross-chained on the largest chainring and largest cog. I have had bikes that did not have numbers, but at least had indicators giving you an approximation where you're at. I sometimes miss that on my road bike when I'm not sure if I should change the gear on the front or not. When you ride enough you get a feel for it, but again not everyone does that.
- f4c39012 2y ago
  i guess i ride enough - not dozens of kms or daily, but over many years - to intuit the gear, which is helped by the gear mechanism jumping to discrete positions. The first bikes i rode with gears were Marins back in the 90s which had no indicators, there was an old 3-speed Sturmey Archer (had to Google this one) where the gears are within the hub, I don't recall a gear indicator for that, but perhaps there was
2y ago

JodieBenitez 2y ago

People cook with microwaves ?

tim333 2y ago
They are quite good for potatoes.
- JodieBenitez 2y ago
  I need to test that.

metalman 2y ago

design design design how I love good design how I love designing and building things how I love dissasembling things, and fixing and modifying things, re purposing parts how I love wrecking yards, with the worlds guts casualy spread out and on display, and making friends with the denisins thereof, some intricate shiny thing bieng rended for its intrinsic worth and comments such as "ya...we get a lot of THOSE..", the whole thing bieng quite litteraly a modern archiological dig for treasure, and at $10000/ton for #2 copper, the digging is quite enthusiastic........but certain things, get reverantly.,...removed from the maw, set aside and traded back into the world, to be rebuilt and put into service..... The main issue I see is that the old axiom of supply, following demand has been perverted by advertising, and it is now possible to supply demand for ANYTHING, and largely face no repercussions, as the market is so large, and moving so fast, that concensus amongst end users dissatisfaction cant coaless to the point of financial penalties on the designers and pervayors of junk. And as junk, can be made junkier, and therefor cheaper, good stuff is pushed into unprofitability......except in industrial and comercial versions of products, where there is no room for shenanigans involving durability OR useabality.

MarkusWandel 2y ago

I know this isn't really about bike gears, but... "people will get it" - yes and no. Since the shift-of-least-resistance is the one to smaller sprockets, a lot of clueless cyclists with 3x gearing are riding around in small-small gear combinations which are the worst - least efficient and most wear-prone. Maybe that's why the bike industry went to 1x drivetrains. That, or being able to sell you $250 cassettes where a $20 one used to do.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago

I recently bought myself a mini "smart" rice cooker from Aliexpress. Works really well, but the buttons are just labelled in chinese as it's only meant to be sold in that market. Even the app needed to have its location changed so that it would pair with the device, but at least it let me keep "English". The app has a whole list of different rice varieties so that it presumably customises the process for different grains, but it's great as I choose either the quick or the slow cooking method and let it do it's thing.