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“Taxation is theft. It should be kept to a minimum." What a small-minded little greed-sack. I hate it that since these people have escape-velocity wealth we ha

“Taxation is theft. It should be kept to a minimum." What a small-minded little greed-sack. I hate it that since these people have escape-velocity wealth we have to forever sit here and on some level pretend their ideas aren't dumb.

nonethewiser 2y ago
[flagged]
- chasing 2y ago
  In a literal sense, taxation is not theft. People often don't like the outflow of money. They complain about it constantly. "Netflix's prices went up!" "The store wanted me to pay for my groceries and wouldn't just let me walk out with them!" "I smashed my neighbor's car with a bat and now the judge says I have to pay for it." These things are not "literally" theft.
  - nonethewiser 2y ago
    >"Netflix's prices went up!" "The store wanted me to pay for my groceries and wouldn't just let me walk out with them!" "I smashed my neighbor's car with a bat and now the judge says I have to pay for it." These things are not "literally" theft. But who is saying they are? I certainly am not. I agree those things arent literally theft. I think the government deciding how much money you owe and getting it with or without your consent basically is theft. The main distinction is that its legal, but that is a coincidental distinction because theft could be made legal as well.
- jhanschoo 2y ago
  A billionaire can go to a lawless place like parts of Somalia, and see first-hand how much people respect their claims to their safety and property there, if they did not pay yet more for mercenaries. Even for people who do not believe in investing in social welfare and public infrastructure and goods, taxes pay for the police, army, and laws that enforce their claim and monopoly over their own property. Without the government that taxes fund, private property is just a wishful concept, and it is difficult to own anything in the first place.
  - nonethewiser 2y ago
    See my explicit note about taxes being necessary. None of what you're saying addresses my point that it is basically theft because the money is taken from you without your consent.
    - jhanschoo 2y ago
      Since taxation is not legally theft, I assume you are talking philosophically. And philosophically I'm saying that the notions of taxes and government are prior to property, and that the notion of property is a limited privilege that some governments grant to select people under its aegis (see also: certain serfs and slaves, who are not afforded the same privilege; they never had the opportunity that someone gave them a contract that paid them in property). It is absurd to say that when what gave you your monopoly over "your things" wants to limit the extent of its graciousness, that that is theft; rather it is a limitation of their charity. In fact, many historical nations' main function is seemingly to define and protect property (especially land) of a select few privileged people. There are places in the world that you can go to where sovereign violence does not reach and you don't have to pay tax, but lacking the organization afforded by a modern government is typically not what many people regard as a happy existence.
- MattPalmer1086 2y ago
  Theft does not imply the use of force. It is illegally depriving you of your property (regardless of whether force is used). However, tax you owe is not your property in the first place. It's the price of living in the society you benefit from. You can complain the price is too high, or go live somewhere else. But it's not theft.
  - nonethewiser 2y ago
    Force in want sense? It's non-consensual. Just like garnishing wages, etc. >It is illegally depriving you of your property The legality of it is the main distinction but its just coincidental. Theft could be made legal or taxation could be made illegal. If that's the primary distinction then I think it just makes my point. I dont think what I'm really saying is even that controversial. The basic definition of theft is taking something from someone without their consent. I think the intuition is that I am arguing for no taxes, and that's what sounds so disagreeable, but thats not what I'm saying. The government has a monopoly on violence, theft, etc. Its just how it works. And we're better off with government than without it.
    - MattPalmer1086 2y ago
      > The basic definition of theft is taking something from someone without their consent. I can go with that. > The government has a monopoly on violence Yes, but not unconstrained or arbitrary violence (mostly, in democracies at any rate). Property rights depend on them being enforced. So while the absence of a government might mean you didn't get taxed, good luck holding on to any of your property without laws, courts and police. > And we're better off with government than without it. I think we basically agree :)
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  >In a literal sense, how is taxation not theft? Being born is rape. I didn't consent to choosing this country or mother or body. That's my mindset when I hear this. There's a social contract you didn't sign but you're subject to it and given services to be raised into a hopefully healthy citizen. In return, you chip in to make sure those services can be maintained. Your choice here is that you can one day revoke that citizenship. But sadly you were born to early to find your own sovereign island and declare yourself king so you can avoid taxes. That part is a shame.
  - nonethewiser 2y ago
    >Being born is rape. I didn't consent to choosing this country or mother or body. But how would it be rape? Rape is non-consensual sex. No one is saying everything involuntary is rape, theft etc. Im saying taxes are the government taking money from you whether you consent to it or not.

nonethewiser 2y ago

[flagged]

chasing 2y ago
In a literal sense, taxation is not theft. People often don't like the outflow of money. They complain about it constantly. "Netflix's prices went up!" "The store wanted me to pay for my groceries and wouldn't just let me walk out with them!" "I smashed my neighbor's car with a bat and now the judge says I have to pay for it." These things are not "literally" theft.
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  >"Netflix's prices went up!" "The store wanted me to pay for my groceries and wouldn't just let me walk out with them!" "I smashed my neighbor's car with a bat and now the judge says I have to pay for it." These things are not "literally" theft. But who is saying they are? I certainly am not. I agree those things arent literally theft. I think the government deciding how much money you owe and getting it with or without your consent basically is theft. The main distinction is that its legal, but that is a coincidental distinction because theft could be made legal as well.
jhanschoo 2y ago
A billionaire can go to a lawless place like parts of Somalia, and see first-hand how much people respect their claims to their safety and property there, if they did not pay yet more for mercenaries. Even for people who do not believe in investing in social welfare and public infrastructure and goods, taxes pay for the police, army, and laws that enforce their claim and monopoly over their own property. Without the government that taxes fund, private property is just a wishful concept, and it is difficult to own anything in the first place.
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  See my explicit note about taxes being necessary. None of what you're saying addresses my point that it is basically theft because the money is taken from you without your consent.
  - jhanschoo 2y ago
    Since taxation is not legally theft, I assume you are talking philosophically. And philosophically I'm saying that the notions of taxes and government are prior to property, and that the notion of property is a limited privilege that some governments grant to select people under its aegis (see also: certain serfs and slaves, who are not afforded the same privilege; they never had the opportunity that someone gave them a contract that paid them in property). It is absurd to say that when what gave you your monopoly over "your things" wants to limit the extent of its graciousness, that that is theft; rather it is a limitation of their charity. In fact, many historical nations' main function is seemingly to define and protect property (especially land) of a select few privileged people. There are places in the world that you can go to where sovereign violence does not reach and you don't have to pay tax, but lacking the organization afforded by a modern government is typically not what many people regard as a happy existence.
MattPalmer1086 2y ago
Theft does not imply the use of force. It is illegally depriving you of your property (regardless of whether force is used). However, tax you owe is not your property in the first place. It's the price of living in the society you benefit from. You can complain the price is too high, or go live somewhere else. But it's not theft.
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  Force in want sense? It's non-consensual. Just like garnishing wages, etc. >It is illegally depriving you of your property The legality of it is the main distinction but its just coincidental. Theft could be made legal or taxation could be made illegal. If that's the primary distinction then I think it just makes my point. I dont think what I'm really saying is even that controversial. The basic definition of theft is taking something from someone without their consent. I think the intuition is that I am arguing for no taxes, and that's what sounds so disagreeable, but thats not what I'm saying. The government has a monopoly on violence, theft, etc. Its just how it works. And we're better off with government than without it.
  - MattPalmer1086 2y ago
    > The basic definition of theft is taking something from someone without their consent. I can go with that. > The government has a monopoly on violence Yes, but not unconstrained or arbitrary violence (mostly, in democracies at any rate). Property rights depend on them being enforced. So while the absence of a government might mean you didn't get taxed, good luck holding on to any of your property without laws, courts and police. > And we're better off with government than without it. I think we basically agree :)
johnnyanmac 2y ago
>In a literal sense, how is taxation not theft? Being born is rape. I didn't consent to choosing this country or mother or body. That's my mindset when I hear this. There's a social contract you didn't sign but you're subject to it and given services to be raised into a hopefully healthy citizen. In return, you chip in to make sure those services can be maintained. Your choice here is that you can one day revoke that citizenship. But sadly you were born to early to find your own sovereign island and declare yourself king so you can avoid taxes. That part is a shame.
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  >Being born is rape. I didn't consent to choosing this country or mother or body. But how would it be rape? Rape is non-consensual sex. No one is saying everything involuntary is rape, theft etc. Im saying taxes are the government taking money from you whether you consent to it or not.