4 ms·

Basically the joy of programming on the bare metal - just a lot more metal in those days. Those of us decades younger got first experience with, say, a Commodo

Basically the joy of programming on the bare metal - just a lot more metal in those days. Those of us decades younger got first experience with, say, a Commodore PET. Which despite running a programming language was still pretty bare metal. You poked at this memory location, and that happened. If it didn't happen fast enough, learn some machine language. I really don't know what the modern day equivalent is - of a machine that is so limited that you can really understand it completely, and develop programming skills by doing wizardly things with the limited resources.

beng-nl 2y ago
Maybe the modern equivalent is an fpga? It is a flawed analogy but it is an environment where you program on the bare metal and there are limited resources and you may have to make every one count.
zabzonk 2y ago
It was a joy. I remember in the late 1970s, after reading two text books I figured out how to write a little program in Z80 assembler (and how to use the assembler), and shortly after how to read and debug the machine code the assembler produced (and a bit later how to use the very spooky linker). Nothing has quite got to me as much since. I thought I was Master Of The Universe!
- sedatk 2y ago
  I had the same euphoric experience but with an opcode table published in a magazine instead of an assembler. :)
  - zabzonk 2y ago
    Indeed. After I had learned Z80 assembler from books, I managed to teach myself M6809 programming from the (very good) Motorola spec sheet. I was Master Of The Multiverse! Then I calmed down, and learned 6502 and 8086 from books. And nowadays I can hardly remember anything about them, or C or C++ which I've actually used to make money for most of my life. I'm nearly 72 now, so perhaps this is forgivable. I'd be interested to know how many young programmers learn an assembly language these days.
theamk 2y ago
A small micro like Atmel (now Microchip) AVR series. One of my favorites are attiny84/attiny85 - 8 KB of program memory, 512 bytes of RAM, 8/14 pins DIP or SO package, needs no supporting circuitry (even power cap is optional), runs from 1.8-5V so you can connect it to a couple batteries directly. The device can be programmed in C or assembly. If programming in C, don't expect to be able to use regular C libraries: with just 512 bytes of ram, "char last_error[512]" will cause your device to run out of memory, so you normally write things from scratch. And 8 KB codespace is really not that big either. If programming in assembly, it's a RISC with 130 instructions, and there is no cache or unexpected interrupts - so things like counting execution cycles by hand work reliably. Even in C, I find myself thinking: "OK, that is going to be X instructions for prologue and Y instructions to write, when means I have Z uS of latency total" The device has some peripherals on board (like serial port and PWM generator), so capability-wise, it's closer to entire old computer (like ZX Spectrum) rather than a single CPU (like Z80). At the same time, there is no pre-programmed ROM, and all you need is to entirely understand a chip is a datasheet (177 pages) and maybe instruction set manual (147 pages) - and that's it, there are no multi-thousand-pages supplemental docs. The best part is those things are actually useful. For example one of them is next to me, sniffing the signals that drive LCD display on commercial CO2 meter, and formatting them for IOT transmission. Capturing a ~2MHz signal with 8MHz chip was non-trivial, and required some neat tricks to get right. Another example is various toys - I have a box with a dozen of lights and a bunch of buttons and knobs. Pressing the buttons and turning the knobs changes the light pattern. Even adults often play with this.
- MarkusWandel 2y ago
  The love letter to the IBM 650 specifically included interactive computing with it, having the machine to yourself, being able to single-step through programs and patch them and so on. Also it includes the social aspect (compete in what you can do with a program fitting on a single punched card). That was present in a room full of Commodore PET computers, with no other computing machines available to anyone there. Come up with a wizardly hack and immediately have an appreciative audience. The interactive aspect is missing with the attiny85 type of microcontrollers. You already have to be pretty good at bare metal type optimizations to use them, you can't easily learn it on those devices I see mindbogglingly wizardly things being done with RP2040 type boards. But that's orders of magnitude more wizardly than described here. But at least the "show it off" community exists.
ferguess_k 2y ago
I bought a STM32 dev board and I'm pretty certain I can do bare metal programming on it too. It does have its ROM pre-loaded with the bootloader and maybe something else, but I don't have to use any library if I do not want. It is also very possible and profitable if we go down to 8-bit and 16-bit processors too, like 8051.
kjellsbells 2y ago
> I really don't know what the modern day equivalent is This comes up on HN quite a bit, without a universal answer. I suspect that each respondent answers through the lens of what they remembered, or liked, about the platforms that were formative for them. Example: 1980s kids seem to have had formative computer experience where the computer was a self contained thing: no understanding of electronics needed, instant on, built in programming environment. Also there was a rich ecosystem of accompanying offline media, eg books on BASIC, magazines with program listings, etc. They gave their full attention to the machine. I also see people who grew up on Raspberry Pi and they have a different view, much more about hardware and pins and voltage. Equally valid but much more electronics-y. Also has a rich offline ecosystem. Of course modern hardware and OSes dont get close to either and so the closest experience is probably python in a browser, which really feels more like Learning for a Job than Fun with implicit Learning. The browser itself is an attention suck too - all too easy to switch away as soon as a little boredom sets in, and, as we know, boredom spurs creativity. I dont know if this exists, but a Switch-like platform with HDMI to the TV plus built in screen, BT keyboard, and a minimal, barely there OS might be one path. But it might still fail without the offline media. Maybe you sell it with an accompanying book of games you have to type in. Yeah, I know. Get off my lawn.

beng-nl 2y ago

Maybe the modern equivalent is an fpga? It is a flawed analogy but it is an environment where you program on the bare metal and there are limited resources and you may have to make every one count.

zabzonk 2y ago

It was a joy. I remember in the late 1970s, after reading two text books I figured out how to write a little program in Z80 assembler (and how to use the assembler), and shortly after how to read and debug the machine code the assembler produced (and a bit later how to use the very spooky linker). Nothing has quite got to me as much since. I thought I was Master Of The Universe!

sedatk 2y ago
I had the same euphoric experience but with an opcode table published in a magazine instead of an assembler. :)
- zabzonk 2y ago
  Indeed. After I had learned Z80 assembler from books, I managed to teach myself M6809 programming from the (very good) Motorola spec sheet. I was Master Of The Multiverse! Then I calmed down, and learned 6502 and 8086 from books. And nowadays I can hardly remember anything about them, or C or C++ which I've actually used to make money for most of my life. I'm nearly 72 now, so perhaps this is forgivable. I'd be interested to know how many young programmers learn an assembly language these days.

theamk 2y ago

A small micro like Atmel (now Microchip) AVR series. One of my favorites are attiny84/attiny85 - 8 KB of program memory, 512 bytes of RAM, 8/14 pins DIP or SO package, needs no supporting circuitry (even power cap is optional), runs from 1.8-5V so you can connect it to a couple batteries directly. The device can be programmed in C or assembly. If programming in C, don't expect to be able to use regular C libraries: with just 512 bytes of ram, "char last_error[512]" will cause your device to run out of memory, so you normally write things from scratch. And 8 KB codespace is really not that big either. If programming in assembly, it's a RISC with 130 instructions, and there is no cache or unexpected interrupts - so things like counting execution cycles by hand work reliably. Even in C, I find myself thinking: "OK, that is going to be X instructions for prologue and Y instructions to write, when means I have Z uS of latency total" The device has some peripherals on board (like serial port and PWM generator), so capability-wise, it's closer to entire old computer (like ZX Spectrum) rather than a single CPU (like Z80). At the same time, there is no pre-programmed ROM, and all you need is to entirely understand a chip is a datasheet (177 pages) and maybe instruction set manual (147 pages) - and that's it, there are no multi-thousand-pages supplemental docs. The best part is those things are actually useful. For example one of them is next to me, sniffing the signals that drive LCD display on commercial CO2 meter, and formatting them for IOT transmission. Capturing a ~2MHz signal with 8MHz chip was non-trivial, and required some neat tricks to get right. Another example is various toys - I have a box with a dozen of lights and a bunch of buttons and knobs. Pressing the buttons and turning the knobs changes the light pattern. Even adults often play with this.

MarkusWandel 2y ago
The love letter to the IBM 650 specifically included interactive computing with it, having the machine to yourself, being able to single-step through programs and patch them and so on. Also it includes the social aspect (compete in what you can do with a program fitting on a single punched card). That was present in a room full of Commodore PET computers, with no other computing machines available to anyone there. Come up with a wizardly hack and immediately have an appreciative audience. The interactive aspect is missing with the attiny85 type of microcontrollers. You already have to be pretty good at bare metal type optimizations to use them, you can't easily learn it on those devices I see mindbogglingly wizardly things being done with RP2040 type boards. But that's orders of magnitude more wizardly than described here. But at least the "show it off" community exists.

ferguess_k 2y ago

I bought a STM32 dev board and I'm pretty certain I can do bare metal programming on it too. It does have its ROM pre-loaded with the bootloader and maybe something else, but I don't have to use any library if I do not want. It is also very possible and profitable if we go down to 8-bit and 16-bit processors too, like 8051.

kjellsbells 2y ago

> I really don't know what the modern day equivalent is This comes up on HN quite a bit, without a universal answer. I suspect that each respondent answers through the lens of what they remembered, or liked, about the platforms that were formative for them. Example: 1980s kids seem to have had formative computer experience where the computer was a self contained thing: no understanding of electronics needed, instant on, built in programming environment. Also there was a rich ecosystem of accompanying offline media, eg books on BASIC, magazines with program listings, etc. They gave their full attention to the machine. I also see people who grew up on Raspberry Pi and they have a different view, much more about hardware and pins and voltage. Equally valid but much more electronics-y. Also has a rich offline ecosystem. Of course modern hardware and OSes dont get close to either and so the closest experience is probably python in a browser, which really feels more like Learning for a Job than Fun with implicit Learning. The browser itself is an attention suck too - all too easy to switch away as soon as a little boredom sets in, and, as we know, boredom spurs creativity. I dont know if this exists, but a Switch-like platform with HDMI to the TV plus built in screen, BT keyboard, and a minimal, barely there OS might be one path. But it might still fail without the offline media. Maybe you sell it with an accompanying book of games you have to type in. Yeah, I know. Get off my lawn.