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Well, Russia is destabilizing the US and winning which is why I think we're acting like that. And it seems all of our military and counterintelligence capabilit

Well, Russia is destabilizing the US and winning which is why I think we're acting like that. And it seems all of our military and counterintelligence capabilities can't stop it. Too much offense, not enough defense, it seems.

iwontberude 2y ago
People like to say that Obamas jokes about Trump got him to run. But I wonder if Obama never helped Ukraine keep their democracy if we still would have ours.
karmajunkie 2y ago
the first amendment has become a national security threat, it would seem…
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
They can, but they won't because nobody dares to stick their neck out for fear of losing their job. And that's been going on for decades, the slow dismantling (if there ever was any) of job and income security, to the point where the majority of Americans, including federal workers, are only one or two paychecks away from financial ruin. Nobody wants to lose their job. Of course, if they get fired and there's nothing else for them to do, there will be uprisings.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Nobody wants to lose their job There is almost zero causality in the U.S. government’s hiring and firing right now. Particularly relating to current conduct. To the extent anyone has received job protection, it’s by getting politically fired and then seeking court protection. So no, this is base cowardice and a lack of patriotism. Not rational action.
  - close04 2y ago
    As a matter of personal character, the people who would be more likely to stand up and shout or protest vigorously in today’s situation are the people which society generally considers obnoxious and disruptive. So in each workplace most were already marginalized or learned to hide these traits for their benefit. There are way more people in the ‘flight’ than the ‘fight’ camp.
  - hansvm 2y ago
    > There is almost zero causality in the U.S. government’s hiring and firing right now. Particularly relating to current conduct. The first firings were all people who knew a guy who knew a guy who wronged Trump. With that kind of retaliatory example, do you not think openly trying to course-correct would result in being fired?
peppers-ghost 2y ago
I'm not even sure it's true Russia is doing this. I think our elected officials might just be really stupid on their own.
- inetknght 2y ago
  They can be really stupid on their own and it can also be Russia who's got their buttons labeled and is pushing them as needed for the dance recital. Except the recital was 4 years ago.
- hnthrow90348765 2y ago
  It's going to be difficult to get more of a smoking gun than a plan to drop sanctions and ceasing offensive cyber operations against Russia, as well as the US's lopsided Ukrainian peace deal and pulling financial support for Ukraine. Russia has no military advantage against ours, so there is no reason to placate them due to a threat of war (nukes excluded here, unless Russia has rapidly outpaced us). The only thing that's left is the relationship between the leaders themselves. If Trump were truly interested in isolationism, he'd instead have simply pulled support for Ukraine and not offered to be a part of negotiations, but many more things were offered for no obvious gain to us.
  - gloosx 2y ago
    >Russia has no military advantage against ours Recent battle experience is kind of an advantage. Russia is running a full-scale war against US and NATO weaponry in Ukraine for three years, studying it and refining its tactics. What was the last battle for USA? Houthis in Yemen? Few airstrikes and limited engagements. It is very naive to believe Putin doesn’t want to cripple the US economy or that war is not a real threat. The US is critically dependent on semiconductors, and TSMC is much closer to Russia than to America. Think it through.
    - kasey_junk 2y ago
      The US has perhaps the most battle hardened military in the history of the world. It’s had real combat deployments continually for going on 25 years. At best you can suggest it would be too allocated to counter insurgency but combined arms battles is the heart of American doctrine and its shown its value in Ukraine not its weakness. I think there are real questions about US military composition, particularly its navy, but battle experience is not a problem.
bananapub 2y ago
Russia is surely involved, but it's pushing on an open door - there's a huge streak of the American right that actually wants this massive catastrophe to befall the US and for the US to become ungovernable and largely ungoverned.
- hedora 2y ago
  Those people get their news from Russian propaganda outlets.
  - bananapub 2y ago
    no, they don't, this is a very dumb thing to think. there's a medium sized chunk the American Right, which has now won, who unrelated to Russia or China or whatever actually want the US to become sci-fi dystopia of authoritarian christo-white-nationalism.
ljm 2y ago
To say that Russia is destabilising the US basically takes the agency of the US out of the equation. Makes the US (the so-called greatest country in the world, so-called leaders of the free world) unaccountable for its own actions. The US is destabilising itself with the help of Russia.
- philistine 2y ago
  Bingo. Most americans are at the phase where they are trying to absolve themselves of necessary responsibility. I don't have to pick up a sign to try and defend my country, it's Russia's fault. I don't have to fight against my president to preserve democracy, it's Russia's fault.

iwontberude 2y ago

People like to say that Obamas jokes about Trump got him to run. But I wonder if Obama never helped Ukraine keep their democracy if we still would have ours.

karmajunkie 2y ago

the first amendment has become a national security threat, it would seem…

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

They can, but they won't because nobody dares to stick their neck out for fear of losing their job. And that's been going on for decades, the slow dismantling (if there ever was any) of job and income security, to the point where the majority of Americans, including federal workers, are only one or two paychecks away from financial ruin. Nobody wants to lose their job. Of course, if they get fired and there's nothing else for them to do, there will be uprisings.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Nobody wants to lose their job There is almost zero causality in the U.S. government’s hiring and firing right now. Particularly relating to current conduct. To the extent anyone has received job protection, it’s by getting politically fired and then seeking court protection. So no, this is base cowardice and a lack of patriotism. Not rational action.
- close04 2y ago
  As a matter of personal character, the people who would be more likely to stand up and shout or protest vigorously in today’s situation are the people which society generally considers obnoxious and disruptive. So in each workplace most were already marginalized or learned to hide these traits for their benefit. There are way more people in the ‘flight’ than the ‘fight’ camp.
- hansvm 2y ago
  > There is almost zero causality in the U.S. government’s hiring and firing right now. Particularly relating to current conduct. The first firings were all people who knew a guy who knew a guy who wronged Trump. With that kind of retaliatory example, do you not think openly trying to course-correct would result in being fired?

peppers-ghost 2y ago

I'm not even sure it's true Russia is doing this. I think our elected officials might just be really stupid on their own.

inetknght 2y ago
They can be really stupid on their own and it can also be Russia who's got their buttons labeled and is pushing them as needed for the dance recital. Except the recital was 4 years ago.
hnthrow90348765 2y ago
It's going to be difficult to get more of a smoking gun than a plan to drop sanctions and ceasing offensive cyber operations against Russia, as well as the US's lopsided Ukrainian peace deal and pulling financial support for Ukraine. Russia has no military advantage against ours, so there is no reason to placate them due to a threat of war (nukes excluded here, unless Russia has rapidly outpaced us). The only thing that's left is the relationship between the leaders themselves. If Trump were truly interested in isolationism, he'd instead have simply pulled support for Ukraine and not offered to be a part of negotiations, but many more things were offered for no obvious gain to us.
- gloosx 2y ago
  >Russia has no military advantage against ours Recent battle experience is kind of an advantage. Russia is running a full-scale war against US and NATO weaponry in Ukraine for three years, studying it and refining its tactics. What was the last battle for USA? Houthis in Yemen? Few airstrikes and limited engagements. It is very naive to believe Putin doesn’t want to cripple the US economy or that war is not a real threat. The US is critically dependent on semiconductors, and TSMC is much closer to Russia than to America. Think it through.
  - kasey_junk 2y ago
    The US has perhaps the most battle hardened military in the history of the world. It’s had real combat deployments continually for going on 25 years. At best you can suggest it would be too allocated to counter insurgency but combined arms battles is the heart of American doctrine and its shown its value in Ukraine not its weakness. I think there are real questions about US military composition, particularly its navy, but battle experience is not a problem.

bananapub 2y ago

Russia is surely involved, but it's pushing on an open door - there's a huge streak of the American right that actually wants this massive catastrophe to befall the US and for the US to become ungovernable and largely ungoverned.

hedora 2y ago
Those people get their news from Russian propaganda outlets.
- bananapub 2y ago
  no, they don't, this is a very dumb thing to think. there's a medium sized chunk the American Right, which has now won, who unrelated to Russia or China or whatever actually want the US to become sci-fi dystopia of authoritarian christo-white-nationalism.

ljm 2y ago

To say that Russia is destabilising the US basically takes the agency of the US out of the equation. Makes the US (the so-called greatest country in the world, so-called leaders of the free world) unaccountable for its own actions. The US is destabilising itself with the help of Russia.

philistine 2y ago
Bingo. Most americans are at the phase where they are trying to absolve themselves of necessary responsibility. I don't have to pick up a sign to try and defend my country, it's Russia's fault. I don't have to fight against my president to preserve democracy, it's Russia's fault.