7 ms·

I like the snide comment that implies the Australian government does not have a clue about the consequences of their policies, let alone any idea whatsoever how

by mianos 2y ago

I like the snide comment that implies the Australian government does not have a clue about the consequences of their policies, let alone any idea whatsoever how to verify age without government ID. The Australia politicians are the laughing stock of the world and that's a pretty competitive arena lately!

chii 2y ago
i just dont understand why pollies continue to try implement age and verification policies, and always try to use the "think of the children" argument. Nobody wants it. It's a form of control on the internet that i would not desire. I don't care about preventing any harm, because the said harm doesn't get prevented in the first place, and new harm is placed on me! Therefore, anyone in their right mind ought to completely oppose any sort of verification scheme on the internet. If you want verification, get the customer to pay a nominal amount via credit card - that is as far as it ought to be allowed to go. Any further, which includes demanding by law for verification, should not be allowed.
- mianos 2y ago
  I have a 14 year old daughter, it is was actually possible, I'd want it. But, I know better than thousands of policy writers in the Australian government and know it's not actually possible without destroying the internet as we know it, so, I don't want it. You can't use credit/debit cards, think of the children and the 0.001% of people in Australia without a card.
  - anonym29 2y ago
    Even if I don't necessarily agree with it, I can understand an argument for not allowing credit cards to suffice for this (not everyone has good enough credit to get a credit card - we shouldn't discriminate against the poor and all), but shouldn't every adult legally residing in Australia be able to open a bank account and get a debit card, even with bad credit?
    - mianos 2y ago
      Everyone with 100 points of id can open a bank account. If you have very bad credit, or even officially bankrupt, you can get a debit that does not let you spend more than you have, well mostly. But, that still leaves the newspaper commenters who have a friend of a friend who does not have 100 points of id or loses their card and bank details weekly.
    - notpushkin 2y ago
      No idea about Australia, but in Estonia (and I suppose most of the Europe?) children can get a debit card without much hassle. Maybe we could give them dedicated BIN numbers so that you could check for age this way, but I think it’s not worth the hassle.
      - anonym29 2y ago
        Perhaps the world's most digital-native democracy isn't the fairest comparison to us ye olden paper pushers, lol.
        notpushkin 2y ago
        Fair point :^) I’ve decided to look it up, and it’s a mixed bag: in the EU, there’s 6 cointries where minors can open a debit card (the age requirement is as low as six in Slovakia or seven in Latvia). Then there’s another 11 countries with no minimum age at all – though they do require parents’ consent. https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements-concerning-rights-child-eu/issuance-credit-card https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-ag...
  - chii 2y ago
    It is the parent's responsibility to look after their child. If they're using the internet unmonitored when young, the parent is at fault. This responsibility should not be forced upon the gov't which would have to add any draconian laws to prevent mishaps.
    - ars 2y ago
      This argument will only work when they get rid of encrypted and one-time messages in apps. Otherwise it's completely impossible for a parent to monitor their kid. It's quite something to tell a parent: It's your job to monitor your kid, but also we're going to block your ability to do so.
      - chii 2y ago
        The parent remains in control of a child's electronics. While there's some privacy that a child ought to have, the parents still have the responsibility to monitor their child's online interactions (including with strangers in an encrypted messaging app). The parent doesn't need to be able to secretly decrypt it - they can just ask, and to impose the rule that the child tell the parent who these other people are. And occasionally audit it. This relationship is not the same as a gov't with the citizenry.
        ars 2y ago
        Did you ignore the "one-time messages" part of my post? Or that you can delete messages? Apps these days are ultra privacy focused. It's not actually possible to monitor kids. It's just not.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        zeta0134 2y ago
        I grew up with a flip phone and an old laptop without a wireless card. I managed to learn how to program on it just fine, and that's what it was given to be for. I also played lots of video games. Oh no? No porn though. No communication with adults online either. For that I went to the computer lab or the library, both monitored. Why would this be hard to do in today's age? There are even movements organized by the kids themselves that recognize the danger of the smartphone.
  - _w1tm 2y ago
    > it's not actually possible without destroying the internet as we know it Looking around at all the neo nazis, Russian disinformation and just the general populace turning more and more insane I’m getting pretty tired of the internet as we know it.
- dkh 2y ago
  “I don’t want it” and “nobody wants it” are vastly different things, and in this case the latter is definitely not true. There probably are/will be ways to do age verification fairly accurately, but they will be scary in other ways, and will certainly violate your privacy, at least during that process.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Larry Ellison has publicly stated that he wants to build an AI powered Chinese style surveillance state that monitors everyone so they never step out of line. He's not the only one.
Mindwipe 2y ago
That's terribly unfair. It could mean the British government too (the UK legal implementation is even worse. At least Australia commissioned a report on age verification. The British government just assumed it was fine because the trade body told them it was, and Ofcom have actively washed their hands of any responsibility for safe implementation at all).
potato3732842 2y ago
They know exactly what they're doing. If laws A and B cannot both be complied with then they have power of arbitrary enforcement over anything that would be subject to both. Legislators are literally law professionals and most of them are old lawyers. They know EXACTLY what they're doing.

by mianos 2y ago

chii 2y ago

i just dont understand why pollies continue to try implement age and verification policies, and always try to use the "think of the children" argument. Nobody wants it. It's a form of control on the internet that i would not desire. I don't care about preventing any harm, because the said harm doesn't get prevented in the first place, and new harm is placed on me! Therefore, anyone in their right mind ought to completely oppose any sort of verification scheme on the internet. If you want verification, get the customer to pay a nominal amount via credit card - that is as far as it ought to be allowed to go. Any further, which includes demanding by law for verification, should not be allowed.

mianos 2y ago
I have a 14 year old daughter, it is was actually possible, I'd want it. But, I know better than thousands of policy writers in the Australian government and know it's not actually possible without destroying the internet as we know it, so, I don't want it. You can't use credit/debit cards, think of the children and the 0.001% of people in Australia without a card.
- anonym29 2y ago
  Even if I don't necessarily agree with it, I can understand an argument for not allowing credit cards to suffice for this (not everyone has good enough credit to get a credit card - we shouldn't discriminate against the poor and all), but shouldn't every adult legally residing in Australia be able to open a bank account and get a debit card, even with bad credit?
  - mianos 2y ago
    Everyone with 100 points of id can open a bank account. If you have very bad credit, or even officially bankrupt, you can get a debit that does not let you spend more than you have, well mostly. But, that still leaves the newspaper commenters who have a friend of a friend who does not have 100 points of id or loses their card and bank details weekly.
  - notpushkin 2y ago
    No idea about Australia, but in Estonia (and I suppose most of the Europe?) children can get a debit card without much hassle. Maybe we could give them dedicated BIN numbers so that you could check for age this way, but I think it’s not worth the hassle.
    - anonym29 2y ago
      Perhaps the world's most digital-native democracy isn't the fairest comparison to us ye olden paper pushers, lol.
      - notpushkin 2y ago
        Fair point :^) I’ve decided to look it up, and it’s a mixed bag: in the EU, there’s 6 cointries where minors can open a debit card (the age requirement is as low as six in Slovakia or seven in Latvia). Then there’s another 11 countries with no minimum age at all – though they do require parents’ consent. https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements-concerning-rights-child-eu/issuance-credit-card https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-ag...
- chii 2y ago
  It is the parent's responsibility to look after their child. If they're using the internet unmonitored when young, the parent is at fault. This responsibility should not be forced upon the gov't which would have to add any draconian laws to prevent mishaps.
  - ars 2y ago
    This argument will only work when they get rid of encrypted and one-time messages in apps. Otherwise it's completely impossible for a parent to monitor their kid. It's quite something to tell a parent: It's your job to monitor your kid, but also we're going to block your ability to do so.
    - chii 2y ago
      The parent remains in control of a child's electronics. While there's some privacy that a child ought to have, the parents still have the responsibility to monitor their child's online interactions (including with strangers in an encrypted messaging app). The parent doesn't need to be able to secretly decrypt it - they can just ask, and to impose the rule that the child tell the parent who these other people are. And occasionally audit it. This relationship is not the same as a gov't with the citizenry.
      - ars 2y ago
        Did you ignore the "one-time messages" part of my post? Or that you can delete messages? Apps these days are ultra privacy focused. It's not actually possible to monitor kids. It's just not.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        zeta0134 2y ago
        I grew up with a flip phone and an old laptop without a wireless card. I managed to learn how to program on it just fine, and that's what it was given to be for. I also played lots of video games. Oh no? No porn though. No communication with adults online either. For that I went to the computer lab or the library, both monitored. Why would this be hard to do in today's age? There are even movements organized by the kids themselves that recognize the danger of the smartphone.
- _w1tm 2y ago
  > it's not actually possible without destroying the internet as we know it Looking around at all the neo nazis, Russian disinformation and just the general populace turning more and more insane I’m getting pretty tired of the internet as we know it.
dkh 2y ago
“I don’t want it” and “nobody wants it” are vastly different things, and in this case the latter is definitely not true. There probably are/will be ways to do age verification fairly accurately, but they will be scary in other ways, and will certainly violate your privacy, at least during that process.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Larry Ellison has publicly stated that he wants to build an AI powered Chinese style surveillance state that monitors everyone so they never step out of line. He's not the only one.

Mindwipe 2y ago

That's terribly unfair. It could mean the British government too (the UK legal implementation is even worse. At least Australia commissioned a report on age verification. The British government just assumed it was fine because the trade body told them it was, and Ofcom have actively washed their hands of any responsibility for safe implementation at all).

potato3732842 2y ago

They know exactly what they're doing. If laws A and B cannot both be complied with then they have power of arbitrary enforcement over anything that would be subject to both. Legislators are literally law professionals and most of them are old lawyers. They know EXACTLY what they're doing.