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Don’t Lie On Your Resume, But Lie Like Hell During Your Exit Interview

176 points by robbiea 14y ago

klez 14y ago
When I was handed my exit survey at my former workplace I didn't lie. I just omitted. I omitted how repetitive and useless was the work. I omitted how micromanagement was killing the spirits of the employees. I omitted how many growth promises they made me were still unattained. But I did underline some positive aspects of the workplace: the cafeteria and the bar. What I mean is, there's no reason to lie. Maybe just omitting stuff and praise useless perks would suffice.
- robbiea 14y ago
  Yes, very good points. But I would say that omitting is the same thing as lying. HR is asking for the absolute truth, and here you are "omitting" things which isn't necessarily telling the truth. The forbes article I linked to had the same omitting points as you made.
  - michaelt 14y ago
    > But I would say that omitting is the same thing as lying. Let's say I think my co-worker is an asshole. How many people do I have to tell to avoid being a liar?
    - ricardobeat 14y ago
      As many who ask you?
ChuckMcM 14y ago
Always good advice. Dan Warmenhoven (CEO of Netapp where I worked at the time) told me that you can't change a company by leaving it. This is so true. Pretty much nothing you say in an exit interview will achieve any positive good, its like taking relationship advice from your soon to be ex-spouse.
- codegeek 14y ago
  "you can't change a company by leaving it" Very well said.
  - lylejohnson 14y ago
    I disagree, unless he meant "you, you specifically". An employee's departure can act as a wake-up call for a company's leadership and subsequently lead to changes at the company.
    - codegeek 14y ago
      "An employee's departure can act as a wake-up call for a company's leadership" I highly doubt it unless the employee was a C level. Even then, people come and go at companies. I have quit enough times to know that truth. Just as an example, I call up my old bosses or colleagues and I hear "Its all the same here. same shit different day" The point is that if you do want to bring change which is extremely tough (even for obama :),you need to stick around and be the champion of change.
    - ChuckMcM 14y ago
      Having been in on the company's leadership meetings where departures were noted with a simple 'regret yes/no' flag it was my experience that no single departure had any effect. Mass departures did, trends did, but one person never did, even when that person was a founder. The rationalizations always put the issue back on the departing employee, "They were burned out", "They had lost their ability to be effective", "They have moved on", "They just haven't grown with the company" never was it "We failed this person, what are we going to do differently?" Now an individual manager might do some introspection, but even then the change impact of the departure is insignificant compared to the change that can be wrought by being there and honing your persuasion skills. And given that, the exit interview is a nop.
      - mjn 14y ago
        That's been my experience in academia as well: any person leaving can be rationalized somehow, and only individual staff personally invested in that person tend to do any introspection about what could've been done differently. Multiple departures can cause a shake-up, though, mostly because the higher-up administration that usually ignores such matters may feel the need to investigate if a trend seems to be developing. Of course, if the problem is the higher-up administration's own policies, that doesn't help, but it can help if the problem was unnoticed malaise in a department.
jordo37 14y ago
I disagree. If you are leaving and if you care at all about the place I don't think you will burn bridges by being honest. Maybe my experience has been different, I have never left a job because of an asshole boss but more freqeuntly because either a) the environment was off or b) I had a better offer somewhere else. In those situations, the exit interview is built to catch exactly those sorts of issues. I am still friends with my colleagues and my boss at my last job, but I told them in the interview a long list of tweaks to expectations, assignments etc if they wanted to keep folks like me around.
- mizhi 14y ago
  That is a far-cry from the behavior this article (and the Forbes one) is cautioning against. You sound like you didn't burn bridges and you provided your critiques in a professional manner. That's different than using the exit interview as the opportunity to let out all your frustrations and to "get back" at the company.
  - dgreensp 14y ago
    The article's advice is specifically "be nice" and hold your tongue, which is silly. Say whatever you want. Obviously calling people assholes is unproductive whether it goes into a sealed file or to the company mailing list. For example, say, "I'm tired of filling out TPS reports and I felt underpaid." No can argue with your emotions, and it's not like your aversion to unnecessary paperwork or need for a decent salary will get out and kill your career. If enough employees leave for precisely these reasons, that may eventually cause change.
    - robbiea 14y ago
      | If enough employees leave for precisely these reasons, that may eventually cause change. What i'm saying is that it usually doesn't. Usually the feedback that you give is already known. The good companies would have changed it before the company left. Especially if it's a huge known problem.
      - 14y ago
rondon1 14y ago
I plan on using the same worthsmithing they used during the last layoffs. "This is a great place to work, but due to circumstances out of my control I unfortunately have to realign and focus my goals towards other opportunites"
- tutufan 14y ago
  Good one!
LiamPfeiffer 14y ago
Any article instructing people to lie should not be circulated, let alone on the front page of HN. Glad to see this didn't last long.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  Why do you say that - is that because you think it is always wrong to lie?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - LiamPfeiffer 14y ago
    Yes. Lying perpetuates this "save yourself" culture. Without citing white lies (presumably made to save the person being lied to), please share an example when it is right to lie?
    - ucee054 14y ago
      "Are you sure that you have not seen any jews here?" 'Nein nein, no one here at all, Brigadeführer. Will tell you right away if I see any, honest'
      - lotharbot 14y ago
        In the Jewish/Christian scriptures, Joshua 2 tells the story of Rahab lying in order to hide a pair of Jewish spies. She is considered one of the great heroes of the Bible.
      - ciupicri 14y ago
        >> Without citing white lies (presumably made to save the person being lied to)
vph 14y ago
This assumes that the company is a stupid, big corporation that can't care less what its employees feel. But a good company should take this opportunity -- the exit interview -- to improve things.
- mef 14y ago
  Do you know of any companies that do?
  - dschobel 14y ago
    My company (at least for two more days) apparently sends all exit-interview notes to the senior management team and we're a fairly large company. So if every exit interviewee says the same things, you'd have to think they would eventually address them or keep facing the consequences.
drtse4 14y ago
Some bridges just need to be burned.
- Paul_S 14y ago
  Bridges tend to be interconnected - I'm afraid the analogy breaks down here but you know what I mean. It might be tempting and your ego might demand it but the advice in the article is pretty solid. There's nothing to be gained here except feeling smug (probably briefly).
  - drtse4 14y ago
    When the thing on the other side of the bridge doesn't share your values i'd say it's healthy, and the fact that connections will likely be burned is a plus. Btw, burn them by default doesn't make sense, on that i can agree.
m104 14y ago
The crux of this is a simple question: if the company is really interested in honest, constructive, confidential, consequence-free criticism, why only ask the ex-employees? Companies that really do value honest, constructive, confidential, consequence-free criticism (the best kind in some cases) will value that feedback most from their current employees. But, in doing so, eliminate the need for the soon ex-employees to feel the need to dump reality on management.
- lusr 14y ago
  I left my first employer after 2.5 years because I didn't like their direction and I didn't like what they were paying me. Everybody there knew I speak my mind - loudly. And I spoke my mind at my exit interview - in a constructive way, sure, but real content. Why? Not because I thought anything would change (it didn't - it got worse and most of my friends have now left too). I did it because I knew what I said would get out, and I knew when I ran into my past colleagues in the future (it's a small industry) that they'd have good laugh about it all and only have respect for me for sticking to my principles and never backing down. All the best people I've worked with have been straight-shooters and I admire that and look for it in the people I interview. Every position I've ever taken on has been through word of mouth, including that position. You can use this knowledge to your advantage. I think this blog post is overly conservative.
  - m104 14y ago
    I totally agree. There's major street cred to be gained from speaking truth to power. But, as the article points out, there are consequences also. I think the blog article is trying to tell newer/naive employees that, when asked by a soon-to-be former employer to provide an honest exit interview, the whole premise is a charade. How we handle that charade is still up to us, though.
  - josephcooney 14y ago
    Sometimes declining to do an exit interview sends a stronger message about the culture of a company.
- big_co 14y ago
mrslx 14y ago
the greatest lie in business is that HR is there for you the employee. no! hr is there to ensure the human capital investment is utilized to the fullest extent allowed by the law and policy of the company.
puppetsocks 14y ago
Related question: is it legal for an employer to hold your last paycheck hostage until you come back in to do an exit interview?
- joezydeco 14y ago
  Usually no. Check with your state's department of labor. Most have a guide about when the employer needs to issue you your last paycheck. If they are withholding some or all of the paycheck against the law, you can file a claim. [EDIT] Here's the one from the state of Illinois. It's pretty helpful: http://www.state.il.us/agency/idol/faq/qawage.htm http://www.state.il.us/agency/idol/faq/qawage.htm
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- codegeek 14y ago
  In the US at least, I would say No.
- j_baker 14y ago
  Probably not. That said, which would you rather do: * File a complaint/lawsuit and go through a difficult legal process that gets you your paycheck in an undefined amount of time. * Show up and do an exit interview, lie through your teeth, and probably get your paycheck much more quickly. Of course, this assumes your employer is being honest and intends to pay you once you've done the exit interview. If you doubt your employer's honesty, the legal route becomes much more viable an option.
- FireBeyond 14y ago
  Largely no. A severance package may be contingent upon it, but typically your last paycheck is expected to either be paid on the final day of employment, or on the next paycheck cycle (and in most states the former - and is typically done by check to avoid delays, whatever, legal claims).
javajosh 14y ago
Some bridges need to be burned. There is this sickness in business that is a kind of pervasive dishonesty. Apart from just being wrong in a moral sense, this is also counter-productive: it ruins the utility of reputation. That said, I'd recommend simply refusing the exit interview. That's 20 minutes you're better spending elsewhere.
- j_baker 14y ago
  Some bridges need to be burned. There is this sickness in business that is a kind of pervasive dishonesty. Apart from just being wrong in a moral sense, this is also counter-productive: it ruins the utility of reputation. Sorry, are you complaining because people are denied an avenue by which to slander others? The utility isn't ruined. You just have to look at it a different way. "Good" people will probably have a good reputation because sharing praise is almost always safe. Bad people will probably have a vague reputation. Doing things this way lets people be rewarded for good behavior, while people who have made mistakes get a chance to learn from their mistakes and "start over".
- aangjie 14y ago
  > There is this sickness in business that is a kind of pervasive dishonesty. I believe it is also called 'business correctness'. It's like a lifestyle disease. Not exactly a killer on its own, but inviting all sorts of other troubles into work and business. Anyway, am not convinced refusing is in any sense productive/curative of the disease. May be if you refuse and then write a blog about it, but that would be major war and might cause career suicide. So i would rather give feedback and level of politeness, well that's a personal choice.
  - javajosh 14y ago
    >Anyway, am not convinced refusing is in any sense productive/curative of the disease. Refusing doesn't cure anything, but it highlights the silliness of the exit interview, and adds 20 minutes to your life. You are right that sharing your honest opinion with others (which seems to happen over beer, more often than not) is far more curative. Not participating is more like an act of passive resistance protesting the hypocrisy of it.
lancewiggs 14y ago
Have your real exit interview with your boss, or her boss, or higher. This can be over a beer, or in the office. Smart bosses will seek you out, not so good ones may not listen anyway.
codegeek 14y ago
Exit interview reminds me of the "Year End appraisals" that happens at companies especially the giant ones. Both are highly ineffective unless constant feedback and engagement is done throughout the year b/w the employer/boss/HR and the employee. I absolutely hated this whole drama which is more of a formality of filling out forms.
bugmenot 14y ago
My last place I only said that it was the 70 hour weeks. I could have vented for days. You can always go to http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/index.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/index.htm and vent there about a company.
at-fates-hands 14y ago
I've had plenty of exit interviews and some I've been nice and candid and others I dropped daisy cutters and tried to kick the devil on the way out the door. I've never gained anything from either approach and have since decided not to waste my time any more. Besides, the last person management wants to hear from are disgruntled developers.
ojbyrne 14y ago
Better solution - and generally recommended by experts - just decline any and all exit interviews.
alan_cx 14y ago
Exit interview? Never had one myself, never heard of any one having one, well, an official one at least. Im guessing its more an American thing than a British one? Anyway, why would one want anything to do with an exit interview? Sounds like a complete mine field. I cant see a reason I'd want to attend one. Are these things forced on people?
- lmm 14y ago
  I'm also a Brit and have had such interviews both times I left a job (though admittedly these were owned by American or Americanized companies). Of course you wouldn't want to make personal attacks or anything like that, but it's a chance to give a clear statement of your reasons for leaving (which can help you as much as your now-ex employer). The last job I left seemed to be just a bad fit between me and the role, and even now I'm frustratingly unsure exactly what I didn't like about it, but I'm glad that we at least took half an hour and tried to talk it through and figure out where it went wrong.
pasbesoin 14y ago
What will it (really) accomplish? Is this something(s) you want? In other words: Context. Keep in mind that for "established" organizations, you will be interviewing with HR and not with your own management. (Even if one of them sits in, HR is driving the show.) And HR has its own agenda, goals, and reports. Amongst other things, if there is a whiff of controversy (that might, even just on an outside chance, turn into arbitration or legal action), it may be best to simply decline the interview. Right or wrong, I tend to view one's HR file as akin to talking to the cops. 'Anything [in it] can and will be used against you.'
figital 14y ago
Exit interviews are for suckers.
zeroonetwothree 14y ago
Why would you even agree to do an exit interview? I'd rather just opt out than lie throughout the process.
nicw 14y ago
An important note: You can decline your exit interview. Unless this requirement is sewn into your signed employment contract, politely decline the request from HR.
- yuhong 14y ago
  Yea, declining is a much better idea. Though in the long term, ideally employees should be able to post these things publicly, which is even better.
  - nicw 14y ago
    I agree. Ideally, that would be nice, but it isn't going to happen. IMO, the most professional approach when you are leaving is to give individuals specific feedback that you think will help them succeed. However, you should already be giving that kind of feedback to individuals, waiting till you are leaving doesn't come off as very helpful or genuine.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - yuhong 14y ago
      Yea, I know that sometimes it is easier said than done.
  - vtry 14y ago
    Glassdoor.com :)
    - yuhong 14y ago
      I mean non-anonymously.
aangjie 14y ago
I would say, there's the question of personal branding that has to be considered. I know that sounds like hand-wavy, marketing speak,but hear me out. In every situation, there are ambiguities, and ideally we should be able to rationally consider the probabilities and utility values involved and make a decision maximizing expected value. Unfortunately, we are not Bayesian models when it comes to decisions. So it becomes a question of personal preference or sometimes emotional sustainability. My experience is violent responses tend to affect your judgement for a longer time period after. On the other hand, lying also has a similar effect, although milder. I've come to the conclusion, it's a very hard thing to balance, and easy to over-do for me. I have lied in a previous exit interview, saying am going for a higher education. while that was true, that was hardly the reason for me leaving. And it still annoys me i did that. I would rather have said, i don't think the management practices make sense, and i haven't been able to change/modify a single bit of it in the last 3 years. So, am better off somewhere else. Infact, both companies after that did not have exit interview per se, so i never got around to saying stuff, but sometimes think i should have. But i would be happy to do something like i mentioned above with my current company when i leave.
lubujackson 14y ago
I like how they made a six point list out of one point. This should have been a tweet.
- sweenster 14y ago
  "If you like this article, chances are you’ll like other things I write. Follow me on twitter and / or subscribe to my blog." Right. Article.
kevingadd 14y ago
I'm always honest in my exit interviews, and I've had quite a few of them. I've yet to have this result in "burning bridges", despite often having harsh things to say (I was leaving, after all) - and in a couple cases so far I've been asked to come back to help solve tough problems (often some of the ones I mentioned in my exit interview). Of course, I don't have a particularly large sample here: just three companies. If I had followed the advice in this article, however, I'd never know what might have happened if I had actually spoken my mind, and I think that's a tremendous waste. If you've already taken the initiative to leave a job, why let yourself be so paralyzed by fear that you won't speak your mind in the exit interview, the interview set up by the company to attempt to capture the reasons for your departure? I don't believe in corporate loyalty, and I don't believe that you owe a former employer much, but I'll say this: If you want to be viewed with any integrity, and as a person of merit and a person that your coworkers - and even your former employer - would consider worth maintaining a relationship with in the future, you owe it to them to be honest in an exit interview. This doesn't mean you should take it as an opportunity to vent and say horrible things just because you can, but you should be honest. If they opt not to act on your feedback, that's their fault, not yours, but if you fail to give them actionable feedback that's your fault.
- fuzzythinker 14y ago
  One way to be both honest and not burn bridges is to say "I don't talk behind people's back". So either HR will bring in the parties involved (not likely, but in case they do, you can get your point across to them directly, probably in a constructive manner), or they won't, which you get to keep your honesty and integrity.
- mikeleeorg 14y ago
  Same here. I've always been open and honest in my exit interviews too, and have never experienced any burnt bridges as a result. And honestly, my sample size is pretty small too. In all of my exit interviews, I've treated it like an employee review: I talk about the good things about the company (things to continue), the bad things about the company (things to avoid), and my suggestions on how they might be fixed. If someone's worried about burning bridges as a result of something negative they might say, just end your interview with suggestions on how the situation could be improved. Personally, I don't think a policy to encourage outright lying is ever a good thing.
themckman 14y ago
Burning bridges, huh? I usually show up on my first day at a job with gas can and matches in hand. By the time I'm leaving a company, any criticisms I've had at all about anything there have been voiced quite publicly and, ideally, to the highest executive I get a chance to expose to my thoughts on any particular subject that might be bothering me. Most of my peers think I'm kind of an ass sometimes, but I'm friends outside of work with many of them and they have a general respect for my willingness to challenge authority on the job. Outside of work, however, I'm a wuss...you never know what you're going to deal with and I could get beat up if I'm too much of a dick!
mullingitover 14y ago
I ended up getting a decent raise because of my predecessor's exit interview. She told the HR staff that she was leaving because she didn't get the (actually quite meager) raise she asked for, and she was doing the work of three people. They ended up hiring two additional people to replace her, and I got a 7% raise.
Claudus 14y ago
I completely disagree with the conclusions made by this article... I worked at a company that had issues, and when employees left, I always found out to some degree what they said in the exit interview. Employees that were polite and constructive, but honest, in pointing out issues and problems earned much more respect from me than employees who sucked up.
darkarmani 14y ago
If you are leaving a company you don't like, why would you ever tell them anything that would make them better? 1. If you hate them you want them to fail anyway. Tell them things are really good. 2. Even if you don't hate them, your feedback can only cause you harm. There is zero upside to being honestly negative. They obviously don't have a culture that rewarded you for taking risks or being honest, so why take one now?
- raldi 14y ago
  > If you are leaving a company you don't like... I've never left a company I didn't like.
rm999 14y ago
At my last job I had two exit interviews. In the first HR sent me the typical forms, which I'm sure went straight to the garbage. In the second my VP sat me down and asked me why I was leaving. I could tell he would have been fine with my BS answer or with my honest one, so I gave him a mix of the two. I avoided the tacky stuff (we were all underpaid, which he knew) and concentrated on my personal development. It was constructive without coming off as petty or angry. He told me he was happy with my work and that I could come back anytime, and wished me luck. That second exit interview was great because HR had nothing to do with it.
ww520 14y ago
Don't be afraid to burn bridge at exit. You don't want to work again with the people you hated anyway. It takes courage to make a stand and here's chance to practice it.
ww520 14y ago
Just an anecdote, during one of my exit interviews, I ranted about the problems, including the ineffective leadership of my boss and my boss' boss. 9 months later, my old boss actually contacted me and asked if I could go back to work in the old company. Being honest and giving constructive criticism don't burn bridge if the recipients can handle it. If they can't handle it, you don't want to work with them anyway so no big deal for those burnt bridges.
BadassFractal 14y ago
When I'm leaving, I'm already at the point where I've attempted to give all the possible feedback, and I've become jaded enough that I simply don't care about helping the company any longer. I write the world's nicest email, praising the technical and personal quality of the team and its leadership, reiterating how much of a dream it was working with them. I make everybody feel great about themselves, and move on with my life, never to look back again.
- robbiea 14y ago
  yes, I agree with this. You have already tried to give the feedback already, you didn't wait until the exit interview.
mzarate06 14y ago
HR will make it seem like everything you say is confidential, and no one will ever know you said it except him / her ... everyone will find out. Everyone thinks that this exit interview is your last chance for you to let management know that things need to change. Everyone thinks that they are going to be the change catalyst on the way out of the company. You're going to be the hero! This all sounds a little over the top. My experience has been that HR was quite clear they would share the feedback I gave in my exit interviews among company leadership to help improve the work environment or culture. Even if it got out more than that, no big deal. (except if we're talking about an extreme case, e.g. an employee leaving due to sexual harassment.) And, given that I had high respect for many that remained at the companies I've left, I willingly gave honest feedback if it might have any chance of improving their work environment after I left. I respect the author's opinion, but it sounds like unnecessary hyping of exit interviews, and bad advice ("exit interviews are a fraud, they're worthless, so lie!!").
joering2 14y ago
Spot on! Take Scott Thompson, disgraced former CEO of Yahoo. In an announcement, Thompson said he was leaving Yahoo due to his health problems... that least very shortly because soon after he joined ShopRunner. So you have a perfect example of a guy that lied on his resume, as well as during his exit. Liar always liar?
Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
The potential benefits of being truthful in a exit interview largely accrue to those still at the company, the risks largely accrue to the person doing the interview. Combine that with the fact that companies who have significant problems of the sort that make people want to leave rarely deal with them (if they were that sort of company they wouldn't have those issues in the first place), and on balance it simply makes no sense to offer anything other than a somewhat rose tinted version of the truth at most. The world is a smaller place than most people think, people know people, word gets around, unofficial references are taken all the time ("hey, this guy worked at place X, I know someone there, I'll give him a call"). Never unnecessarily upset someone, anyone, without very good reason. And whatever you do, never ever make the mistake of assuming that because you were right, that's how it will be seen (and told) by everyone.
tluyben2 14y ago
Hmm. People I know including myself wouldn't do an 'exit interview'. Once you know you're gone, you just leave (actually that instant, usually). Why would you waste time talking to pencil pushers? Never gave anyone I know a bad rep either; I don't know if this is the country I live in, but no-one cares about the past basically; references are never called (I tried to do this in my own companies, but everyone on the other end lies, because there is always some kind of deal in place, no matter how someone leaves; it's a money thing so no-one is going to tell you the truth anyway) and people have 'better' stuff to do than talk about you (cocktails might be free for instance or something something olympics!).
adrianwaj 14y ago
Any freelancers reading this: I have an idea to allow people to recommend possible replacements upon exit interviews. "richbridge" "moneydoor" "smartexit" Perhaps you can already work out the use case and flow. Drop me a line if interested.
lhnz 14y ago
I understand what you're saying; positivity on the way out can ensure that you don't burn bridges as nobody likes being told that they're doing a bad job. But this isn't the right thing to do. Show some care for your colleagues. If you're leaving them in the same position or worse off, then it's your responsibility to say: "I'm going now and I've enjoyed my time here for the most part, but I really hope that you can try and fix some of these things x, y, z for my colleagues Simon, Jack and Andy." Avoid being rude or selfish. Reframe the conversation so it's about helping your colleagues out and not negative feelings. Be positive, caring and constructive at the same time.

176 points by robbiea 14y ago

klez 14y ago

When I was handed my exit survey at my former workplace I didn't lie. I just omitted. I omitted how repetitive and useless was the work. I omitted how micromanagement was killing the spirits of the employees. I omitted how many growth promises they made me were still unattained. But I did underline some positive aspects of the workplace: the cafeteria and the bar. What I mean is, there's no reason to lie. Maybe just omitting stuff and praise useless perks would suffice.

robbiea 14y ago
Yes, very good points. But I would say that omitting is the same thing as lying. HR is asking for the absolute truth, and here you are "omitting" things which isn't necessarily telling the truth. The forbes article I linked to had the same omitting points as you made.
- michaelt 14y ago
  > But I would say that omitting is the same thing as lying. Let's say I think my co-worker is an asshole. How many people do I have to tell to avoid being a liar?
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    As many who ask you?

ChuckMcM 14y ago

Always good advice. Dan Warmenhoven (CEO of Netapp where I worked at the time) told me that you can't change a company by leaving it. This is so true. Pretty much nothing you say in an exit interview will achieve any positive good, its like taking relationship advice from your soon to be ex-spouse.

codegeek 14y ago
"you can't change a company by leaving it" Very well said.
- lylejohnson 14y ago
  I disagree, unless he meant "you, you specifically". An employee's departure can act as a wake-up call for a company's leadership and subsequently lead to changes at the company.
  - codegeek 14y ago
    "An employee's departure can act as a wake-up call for a company's leadership" I highly doubt it unless the employee was a C level. Even then, people come and go at companies. I have quit enough times to know that truth. Just as an example, I call up my old bosses or colleagues and I hear "Its all the same here. same shit different day" The point is that if you do want to bring change which is extremely tough (even for obama :),you need to stick around and be the champion of change.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    Having been in on the company's leadership meetings where departures were noted with a simple 'regret yes/no' flag it was my experience that no single departure had any effect. Mass departures did, trends did, but one person never did, even when that person was a founder. The rationalizations always put the issue back on the departing employee, "They were burned out", "They had lost their ability to be effective", "They have moved on", "They just haven't grown with the company" never was it "We failed this person, what are we going to do differently?" Now an individual manager might do some introspection, but even then the change impact of the departure is insignificant compared to the change that can be wrought by being there and honing your persuasion skills. And given that, the exit interview is a nop.
    - mjn 14y ago
      That's been my experience in academia as well: any person leaving can be rationalized somehow, and only individual staff personally invested in that person tend to do any introspection about what could've been done differently. Multiple departures can cause a shake-up, though, mostly because the higher-up administration that usually ignores such matters may feel the need to investigate if a trend seems to be developing. Of course, if the problem is the higher-up administration's own policies, that doesn't help, but it can help if the problem was unnoticed malaise in a department.

jordo37 14y ago

I disagree. If you are leaving and if you care at all about the place I don't think you will burn bridges by being honest. Maybe my experience has been different, I have never left a job because of an asshole boss but more freqeuntly because either a) the environment was off or b) I had a better offer somewhere else. In those situations, the exit interview is built to catch exactly those sorts of issues. I am still friends with my colleagues and my boss at my last job, but I told them in the interview a long list of tweaks to expectations, assignments etc if they wanted to keep folks like me around.

mizhi 14y ago
That is a far-cry from the behavior this article (and the Forbes one) is cautioning against. You sound like you didn't burn bridges and you provided your critiques in a professional manner. That's different than using the exit interview as the opportunity to let out all your frustrations and to "get back" at the company.
- dgreensp 14y ago
  The article's advice is specifically "be nice" and hold your tongue, which is silly. Say whatever you want. Obviously calling people assholes is unproductive whether it goes into a sealed file or to the company mailing list. For example, say, "I'm tired of filling out TPS reports and I felt underpaid." No can argue with your emotions, and it's not like your aversion to unnecessary paperwork or need for a decent salary will get out and kill your career. If enough employees leave for precisely these reasons, that may eventually cause change.
  - robbiea 14y ago
    | If enough employees leave for precisely these reasons, that may eventually cause change. What i'm saying is that it usually doesn't. Usually the feedback that you give is already known. The good companies would have changed it before the company left. Especially if it's a huge known problem.
    - 14y ago

rondon1 14y ago

I plan on using the same worthsmithing they used during the last layoffs. "This is a great place to work, but due to circumstances out of my control I unfortunately have to realign and focus my goals towards other opportunites"

tutufan 14y ago
Good one!

LiamPfeiffer 14y ago

Any article instructing people to lie should not be circulated, let alone on the front page of HN. Glad to see this didn't last long.

slurgfest 14y ago
Why do you say that - is that because you think it is always wrong to lie?
- deleted 14y ago
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  - deleted 14y ago
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- LiamPfeiffer 14y ago
  Yes. Lying perpetuates this "save yourself" culture. Without citing white lies (presumably made to save the person being lied to), please share an example when it is right to lie?
  - ucee054 14y ago
    "Are you sure that you have not seen any jews here?" 'Nein nein, no one here at all, Brigadeführer. Will tell you right away if I see any, honest'
    - lotharbot 14y ago
      In the Jewish/Christian scriptures, Joshua 2 tells the story of Rahab lying in order to hide a pair of Jewish spies. She is considered one of the great heroes of the Bible.
    - ciupicri 14y ago
      >> Without citing white lies (presumably made to save the person being lied to)

vph 14y ago

This assumes that the company is a stupid, big corporation that can't care less what its employees feel. But a good company should take this opportunity -- the exit interview -- to improve things.

mef 14y ago
Do you know of any companies that do?
- dschobel 14y ago
  My company (at least for two more days) apparently sends all exit-interview notes to the senior management team and we're a fairly large company. So if every exit interviewee says the same things, you'd have to think they would eventually address them or keep facing the consequences.

drtse4 14y ago

Some bridges just need to be burned.

Paul_S 14y ago
Bridges tend to be interconnected - I'm afraid the analogy breaks down here but you know what I mean. It might be tempting and your ego might demand it but the advice in the article is pretty solid. There's nothing to be gained here except feeling smug (probably briefly).
- drtse4 14y ago
  When the thing on the other side of the bridge doesn't share your values i'd say it's healthy, and the fact that connections will likely be burned is a plus. Btw, burn them by default doesn't make sense, on that i can agree.

m104 14y ago

The crux of this is a simple question: if the company is really interested in honest, constructive, confidential, consequence-free criticism, why only ask the ex-employees? Companies that really do value honest, constructive, confidential, consequence-free criticism (the best kind in some cases) will value that feedback most from their current employees. But, in doing so, eliminate the need for the soon ex-employees to feel the need to dump reality on management.

lusr 14y ago
I left my first employer after 2.5 years because I didn't like their direction and I didn't like what they were paying me. Everybody there knew I speak my mind - loudly. And I spoke my mind at my exit interview - in a constructive way, sure, but real content. Why? Not because I thought anything would change (it didn't - it got worse and most of my friends have now left too). I did it because I knew what I said would get out, and I knew when I ran into my past colleagues in the future (it's a small industry) that they'd have good laugh about it all and only have respect for me for sticking to my principles and never backing down. All the best people I've worked with have been straight-shooters and I admire that and look for it in the people I interview. Every position I've ever taken on has been through word of mouth, including that position. You can use this knowledge to your advantage. I think this blog post is overly conservative.
- m104 14y ago
  I totally agree. There's major street cred to be gained from speaking truth to power. But, as the article points out, there are consequences also. I think the blog article is trying to tell newer/naive employees that, when asked by a soon-to-be former employer to provide an honest exit interview, the whole premise is a charade. How we handle that charade is still up to us, though.
- josephcooney 14y ago
  Sometimes declining to do an exit interview sends a stronger message about the culture of a company.
big_co 14y ago

mrslx 14y ago

the greatest lie in business is that HR is there for you the employee. no! hr is there to ensure the human capital investment is utilized to the fullest extent allowed by the law and policy of the company.

puppetsocks 14y ago

Related question: is it legal for an employer to hold your last paycheck hostage until you come back in to do an exit interview?

joezydeco 14y ago
Usually no. Check with your state's department of labor. Most have a guide about when the employer needs to issue you your last paycheck. If they are withholding some or all of the paycheck against the law, you can file a claim. [EDIT] Here's the one from the state of Illinois. It's pretty helpful: http://www.state.il.us/agency/idol/faq/qawage.htm http://www.state.il.us/agency/idol/faq/qawage.htm
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codegeek 14y ago
In the US at least, I would say No.
j_baker 14y ago
Probably not. That said, which would you rather do: * File a complaint/lawsuit and go through a difficult legal process that gets you your paycheck in an undefined amount of time. * Show up and do an exit interview, lie through your teeth, and probably get your paycheck much more quickly. Of course, this assumes your employer is being honest and intends to pay you once you've done the exit interview. If you doubt your employer's honesty, the legal route becomes much more viable an option.
FireBeyond 14y ago
Largely no. A severance package may be contingent upon it, but typically your last paycheck is expected to either be paid on the final day of employment, or on the next paycheck cycle (and in most states the former - and is typically done by check to avoid delays, whatever, legal claims).

javajosh 14y ago

Some bridges need to be burned. There is this sickness in business that is a kind of pervasive dishonesty. Apart from just being wrong in a moral sense, this is also counter-productive: it ruins the utility of reputation. That said, I'd recommend simply refusing the exit interview. That's 20 minutes you're better spending elsewhere.

j_baker 14y ago
Some bridges need to be burned. There is this sickness in business that is a kind of pervasive dishonesty. Apart from just being wrong in a moral sense, this is also counter-productive: it ruins the utility of reputation. Sorry, are you complaining because people are denied an avenue by which to slander others? The utility isn't ruined. You just have to look at it a different way. "Good" people will probably have a good reputation because sharing praise is almost always safe. Bad people will probably have a vague reputation. Doing things this way lets people be rewarded for good behavior, while people who have made mistakes get a chance to learn from their mistakes and "start over".
aangjie 14y ago
> There is this sickness in business that is a kind of pervasive dishonesty. I believe it is also called 'business correctness'. It's like a lifestyle disease. Not exactly a killer on its own, but inviting all sorts of other troubles into work and business. Anyway, am not convinced refusing is in any sense productive/curative of the disease. May be if you refuse and then write a blog about it, but that would be major war and might cause career suicide. So i would rather give feedback and level of politeness, well that's a personal choice.
- javajosh 14y ago
  >Anyway, am not convinced refusing is in any sense productive/curative of the disease. Refusing doesn't cure anything, but it highlights the silliness of the exit interview, and adds 20 minutes to your life. You are right that sharing your honest opinion with others (which seems to happen over beer, more often than not) is far more curative. Not participating is more like an act of passive resistance protesting the hypocrisy of it.

lancewiggs 14y ago

Have your real exit interview with your boss, or her boss, or higher. This can be over a beer, or in the office. Smart bosses will seek you out, not so good ones may not listen anyway.

codegeek 14y ago

Exit interview reminds me of the "Year End appraisals" that happens at companies especially the giant ones. Both are highly ineffective unless constant feedback and engagement is done throughout the year b/w the employer/boss/HR and the employee. I absolutely hated this whole drama which is more of a formality of filling out forms.

bugmenot 14y ago

My last place I only said that it was the 70 hour weeks. I could have vented for days. You can always go to http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/index.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/index.htm and vent there about a company.

at-fates-hands 14y ago

I've had plenty of exit interviews and some I've been nice and candid and others I dropped daisy cutters and tried to kick the devil on the way out the door. I've never gained anything from either approach and have since decided not to waste my time any more. Besides, the last person management wants to hear from are disgruntled developers.

ojbyrne 14y ago

Better solution - and generally recommended by experts - just decline any and all exit interviews.

alan_cx 14y ago

Exit interview? Never had one myself, never heard of any one having one, well, an official one at least. Im guessing its more an American thing than a British one? Anyway, why would one want anything to do with an exit interview? Sounds like a complete mine field. I cant see a reason I'd want to attend one. Are these things forced on people?

lmm 14y ago
I'm also a Brit and have had such interviews both times I left a job (though admittedly these were owned by American or Americanized companies). Of course you wouldn't want to make personal attacks or anything like that, but it's a chance to give a clear statement of your reasons for leaving (which can help you as much as your now-ex employer). The last job I left seemed to be just a bad fit between me and the role, and even now I'm frustratingly unsure exactly what I didn't like about it, but I'm glad that we at least took half an hour and tried to talk it through and figure out where it went wrong.

pasbesoin 14y ago

What will it (really) accomplish? Is this something(s) you want? In other words: Context. Keep in mind that for "established" organizations, you will be interviewing with HR and not with your own management. (Even if one of them sits in, HR is driving the show.) And HR has its own agenda, goals, and reports. Amongst other things, if there is a whiff of controversy (that might, even just on an outside chance, turn into arbitration or legal action), it may be best to simply decline the interview. Right or wrong, I tend to view one's HR file as akin to talking to the cops. 'Anything [in it] can and will be used against you.'

figital 14y ago

Exit interviews are for suckers.

zeroonetwothree 14y ago

Why would you even agree to do an exit interview? I'd rather just opt out than lie throughout the process.

nicw 14y ago

An important note: You can decline your exit interview. Unless this requirement is sewn into your signed employment contract, politely decline the request from HR.

yuhong 14y ago
Yea, declining is a much better idea. Though in the long term, ideally employees should be able to post these things publicly, which is even better.
- nicw 14y ago
  I agree. Ideally, that would be nice, but it isn't going to happen. IMO, the most professional approach when you are leaving is to give individuals specific feedback that you think will help them succeed. However, you should already be giving that kind of feedback to individuals, waiting till you are leaving doesn't come off as very helpful or genuine.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - yuhong 14y ago
    Yea, I know that sometimes it is easier said than done.
- vtry 14y ago
  Glassdoor.com :)
  - yuhong 14y ago
    I mean non-anonymously.

aangjie 14y ago

I would say, there's the question of personal branding that has to be considered. I know that sounds like hand-wavy, marketing speak,but hear me out. In every situation, there are ambiguities, and ideally we should be able to rationally consider the probabilities and utility values involved and make a decision maximizing expected value. Unfortunately, we are not Bayesian models when it comes to decisions. So it becomes a question of personal preference or sometimes emotional sustainability. My experience is violent responses tend to affect your judgement for a longer time period after. On the other hand, lying also has a similar effect, although milder. I've come to the conclusion, it's a very hard thing to balance, and easy to over-do for me. I have lied in a previous exit interview, saying am going for a higher education. while that was true, that was hardly the reason for me leaving. And it still annoys me i did that. I would rather have said, i don't think the management practices make sense, and i haven't been able to change/modify a single bit of it in the last 3 years. So, am better off somewhere else. Infact, both companies after that did not have exit interview per se, so i never got around to saying stuff, but sometimes think i should have. But i would be happy to do something like i mentioned above with my current company when i leave.

lubujackson 14y ago

I like how they made a six point list out of one point. This should have been a tweet.

sweenster 14y ago
"If you like this article, chances are you’ll like other things I write. Follow me on twitter and / or subscribe to my blog." Right. Article.

kevingadd 14y ago

I'm always honest in my exit interviews, and I've had quite a few of them. I've yet to have this result in "burning bridges", despite often having harsh things to say (I was leaving, after all) - and in a couple cases so far I've been asked to come back to help solve tough problems (often some of the ones I mentioned in my exit interview). Of course, I don't have a particularly large sample here: just three companies. If I had followed the advice in this article, however, I'd never know what might have happened if I had actually spoken my mind, and I think that's a tremendous waste. If you've already taken the initiative to leave a job, why let yourself be so paralyzed by fear that you won't speak your mind in the exit interview, the interview set up by the company to attempt to capture the reasons for your departure? I don't believe in corporate loyalty, and I don't believe that you owe a former employer much, but I'll say this: If you want to be viewed with any integrity, and as a person of merit and a person that your coworkers - and even your former employer - would consider worth maintaining a relationship with in the future, you owe it to them to be honest in an exit interview. This doesn't mean you should take it as an opportunity to vent and say horrible things just because you can, but you should be honest. If they opt not to act on your feedback, that's their fault, not yours, but if you fail to give them actionable feedback that's your fault.

fuzzythinker 14y ago
One way to be both honest and not burn bridges is to say "I don't talk behind people's back". So either HR will bring in the parties involved (not likely, but in case they do, you can get your point across to them directly, probably in a constructive manner), or they won't, which you get to keep your honesty and integrity.
mikeleeorg 14y ago
Same here. I've always been open and honest in my exit interviews too, and have never experienced any burnt bridges as a result. And honestly, my sample size is pretty small too. In all of my exit interviews, I've treated it like an employee review: I talk about the good things about the company (things to continue), the bad things about the company (things to avoid), and my suggestions on how they might be fixed. If someone's worried about burning bridges as a result of something negative they might say, just end your interview with suggestions on how the situation could be improved. Personally, I don't think a policy to encourage outright lying is ever a good thing.

themckman 14y ago

Burning bridges, huh? I usually show up on my first day at a job with gas can and matches in hand. By the time I'm leaving a company, any criticisms I've had at all about anything there have been voiced quite publicly and, ideally, to the highest executive I get a chance to expose to my thoughts on any particular subject that might be bothering me. Most of my peers think I'm kind of an ass sometimes, but I'm friends outside of work with many of them and they have a general respect for my willingness to challenge authority on the job. Outside of work, however, I'm a wuss...you never know what you're going to deal with and I could get beat up if I'm too much of a dick!

mullingitover 14y ago

I ended up getting a decent raise because of my predecessor's exit interview. She told the HR staff that she was leaving because she didn't get the (actually quite meager) raise she asked for, and she was doing the work of three people. They ended up hiring two additional people to replace her, and I got a 7% raise.

Claudus 14y ago

I completely disagree with the conclusions made by this article... I worked at a company that had issues, and when employees left, I always found out to some degree what they said in the exit interview. Employees that were polite and constructive, but honest, in pointing out issues and problems earned much more respect from me than employees who sucked up.

darkarmani 14y ago

If you are leaving a company you don't like, why would you ever tell them anything that would make them better? 1. If you hate them you want them to fail anyway. Tell them things are really good. 2. Even if you don't hate them, your feedback can only cause you harm. There is zero upside to being honestly negative. They obviously don't have a culture that rewarded you for taking risks or being honest, so why take one now?

raldi 14y ago
> If you are leaving a company you don't like... I've never left a company I didn't like.

rm999 14y ago

At my last job I had two exit interviews. In the first HR sent me the typical forms, which I'm sure went straight to the garbage. In the second my VP sat me down and asked me why I was leaving. I could tell he would have been fine with my BS answer or with my honest one, so I gave him a mix of the two. I avoided the tacky stuff (we were all underpaid, which he knew) and concentrated on my personal development. It was constructive without coming off as petty or angry. He told me he was happy with my work and that I could come back anytime, and wished me luck. That second exit interview was great because HR had nothing to do with it.

ww520 14y ago

Don't be afraid to burn bridge at exit. You don't want to work again with the people you hated anyway. It takes courage to make a stand and here's chance to practice it.

ww520 14y ago

Just an anecdote, during one of my exit interviews, I ranted about the problems, including the ineffective leadership of my boss and my boss' boss. 9 months later, my old boss actually contacted me and asked if I could go back to work in the old company. Being honest and giving constructive criticism don't burn bridge if the recipients can handle it. If they can't handle it, you don't want to work with them anyway so no big deal for those burnt bridges.

BadassFractal 14y ago

When I'm leaving, I'm already at the point where I've attempted to give all the possible feedback, and I've become jaded enough that I simply don't care about helping the company any longer. I write the world's nicest email, praising the technical and personal quality of the team and its leadership, reiterating how much of a dream it was working with them. I make everybody feel great about themselves, and move on with my life, never to look back again.

robbiea 14y ago
yes, I agree with this. You have already tried to give the feedback already, you didn't wait until the exit interview.

mzarate06 14y ago

HR will make it seem like everything you say is confidential, and no one will ever know you said it except him / her ... everyone will find out. Everyone thinks that this exit interview is your last chance for you to let management know that things need to change. Everyone thinks that they are going to be the change catalyst on the way out of the company. You're going to be the hero! This all sounds a little over the top. My experience has been that HR was quite clear they would share the feedback I gave in my exit interviews among company leadership to help improve the work environment or culture. Even if it got out more than that, no big deal. (except if we're talking about an extreme case, e.g. an employee leaving due to sexual harassment.) And, given that I had high respect for many that remained at the companies I've left, I willingly gave honest feedback if it might have any chance of improving their work environment after I left. I respect the author's opinion, but it sounds like unnecessary hyping of exit interviews, and bad advice ("exit interviews are a fraud, they're worthless, so lie!!").

joering2 14y ago

Spot on! Take Scott Thompson, disgraced former CEO of Yahoo. In an announcement, Thompson said he was leaving Yahoo due to his health problems... that least very shortly because soon after he joined ShopRunner. So you have a perfect example of a guy that lied on his resume, as well as during his exit. Liar always liar?

Tyrannosaurs 14y ago

The potential benefits of being truthful in a exit interview largely accrue to those still at the company, the risks largely accrue to the person doing the interview. Combine that with the fact that companies who have significant problems of the sort that make people want to leave rarely deal with them (if they were that sort of company they wouldn't have those issues in the first place), and on balance it simply makes no sense to offer anything other than a somewhat rose tinted version of the truth at most. The world is a smaller place than most people think, people know people, word gets around, unofficial references are taken all the time ("hey, this guy worked at place X, I know someone there, I'll give him a call"). Never unnecessarily upset someone, anyone, without very good reason. And whatever you do, never ever make the mistake of assuming that because you were right, that's how it will be seen (and told) by everyone.

tluyben2 14y ago

Hmm. People I know including myself wouldn't do an 'exit interview'. Once you know you're gone, you just leave (actually that instant, usually). Why would you waste time talking to pencil pushers? Never gave anyone I know a bad rep either; I don't know if this is the country I live in, but no-one cares about the past basically; references are never called (I tried to do this in my own companies, but everyone on the other end lies, because there is always some kind of deal in place, no matter how someone leaves; it's a money thing so no-one is going to tell you the truth anyway) and people have 'better' stuff to do than talk about you (cocktails might be free for instance or something something olympics!).

adrianwaj 14y ago

Any freelancers reading this: I have an idea to allow people to recommend possible replacements upon exit interviews. "richbridge" "moneydoor" "smartexit" Perhaps you can already work out the use case and flow. Drop me a line if interested.

lhnz 14y ago

I understand what you're saying; positivity on the way out can ensure that you don't burn bridges as nobody likes being told that they're doing a bad job. But this isn't the right thing to do. Show some care for your colleagues. If you're leaving them in the same position or worse off, then it's your responsibility to say: "I'm going now and I've enjoyed my time here for the most part, but I really hope that you can try and fix some of these things x, y, z for my colleagues Simon, Jack and Andy." Avoid being rude or selfish. Reframe the conversation so it's about helping your colleagues out and not negative feelings. Be positive, caring and constructive at the same time.