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> it's really difficult to build things to last. Having a non-user replaceable battery is a really easy way to ensure a product stops working after 3-4 years t

> it's really difficult to build things to last. Having a non-user replaceable battery is a really easy way to ensure a product stops working after 3-4 years though. And the criticism is typically directed at companies like Apple, who does make things that last physically, but then force you to upgrade by way of battery.

pinkmuffinere 2y ago
Both can be true: planned obsolescence is real, but building things to last is difficult too. IMO the durability problems in early generations of products tend to be "real", because there are still real engineering problems that aren't understood, and there isn't (generally) a super limited market. Once the engineering problems are solved and the market is fully saturated, there is suddenly an incentive to add planned obsolescence. I don't have any data to back up this claim though.
- jordanb 2y ago
  A more accurate term is "value engineering." If you have a product that's been in the market for a while and it looks like it's meeting service life expectations you start looking at it trying to find ways to save money by substituting cheaper parts. You swap out metal gears for plastic gears, for instance. If these parts have a shorter service life, but the service life is still longer than the warranty, then maybe that's a win in two ways for the manufacturer.
  - pinkmuffinere 2y ago
    Wow that's super interesting! I've never heard of this, but the appeal is immediately obvious. Thanks for commenting, gonna have to do a Wikipedia binge.
  - folsom 2y ago
    I think of it as a continuous feedback loop between engineering, finance, and QA that ultimately ends in a product being manufactured as inexpensively as possible without dying in the warranty period.
  - xethos 2y ago
    > You swap out metal gears for plastic gears, for instance. Great, till the motor that drives the gears jams. When the gears are metal,the expensive part (the motor) is more likely to lose. When the gears are plastic, the motor survives and you need to replace the gears with nylon ones or 3D print your own. The plastic gears may not always be designed as a sacrificial part, but most consumers unfairly dismiss the possibility immediately This comes down to warranty too. If it fails during the warranty period, which one does the OEM want to pay to replace: the expensive motor, or the cheap gearing?
- BizarroLand 2y ago
  Honestly, though, nothing has come along or happened to create the need for more power than what was found in the iphone 6 or 7. Modern phones are examples of too much power for too little reason as far as I am concerned.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nicoburns 2y ago
You're never really forced to upgrade because of battery. If you don't want to get Apple to replace it (which though expensive is still much cheaper than a new phone), then you can take it to your local phone repair shop which will do it for not much more than the cost of a replacement battery.
- yard2010 2y ago
  In some versions of the iPhone the screen is maliciously connected to the board with strong adhesive making these replacements not easy at all.
  - Gigachad 2y ago
    It’s fairly easy to open. They designed it so a cheap and inexperienced worker in the Apple Store can replace the battery quickly and without issues. They also made a massive improvement by designing an adhesive for the battery that detaches with electricity. So you no longer have to use pull tabs or heat.
  - Someone 2y ago
    > the screen is maliciously connected to the board with strong adhesive That’s not necessarily malice. Using lots of glue makes the device stronger, and making glue that a) glues really well (if there’s as good as no bezel, how is the screen staying attached to the phone otherwise?), b) lasts for years in any climate and c) can be easily removed isn’t an easy problem.
    - KETHERCORTEX 2y ago
      Using glue is an anti-repair malice by itself. On my planet screws and gaskets were invented long ago.
      - mschuster91 2y ago
        Screws are visible from the outside though. In any case, all it takes to repair a phone with a glued screen is a two face suction grip for about 20 dollars and an ordinary hair dryer. The nasty part of a phone repair, I will admit that, is scraping off the glue gunk - I had to repair a Google Pixel once where the battery was dead, and during removing the glue on the display unit border I apparently managed to damage the seal between the OLED display and the glass, exposing the OLED to oxygen which led to eventual oxidization and a new display panel.
StressedDev 2y ago
My last iPhone’s battery lasted about 5.5 years before it needed to be replaced. Replacing it cost about $90 + tax at the Apple store. The bottom line is Apple products do last and if you need a new battery, you can get one.

pinkmuffinere 2y ago

Both can be true: planned obsolescence is real, but building things to last is difficult too. IMO the durability problems in early generations of products tend to be "real", because there are still real engineering problems that aren't understood, and there isn't (generally) a super limited market. Once the engineering problems are solved and the market is fully saturated, there is suddenly an incentive to add planned obsolescence. I don't have any data to back up this claim though.

jordanb 2y ago
A more accurate term is "value engineering." If you have a product that's been in the market for a while and it looks like it's meeting service life expectations you start looking at it trying to find ways to save money by substituting cheaper parts. You swap out metal gears for plastic gears, for instance. If these parts have a shorter service life, but the service life is still longer than the warranty, then maybe that's a win in two ways for the manufacturer.
- pinkmuffinere 2y ago
  Wow that's super interesting! I've never heard of this, but the appeal is immediately obvious. Thanks for commenting, gonna have to do a Wikipedia binge.
- folsom 2y ago
  I think of it as a continuous feedback loop between engineering, finance, and QA that ultimately ends in a product being manufactured as inexpensively as possible without dying in the warranty period.
- xethos 2y ago
  > You swap out metal gears for plastic gears, for instance. Great, till the motor that drives the gears jams. When the gears are metal,the expensive part (the motor) is more likely to lose. When the gears are plastic, the motor survives and you need to replace the gears with nylon ones or 3D print your own. The plastic gears may not always be designed as a sacrificial part, but most consumers unfairly dismiss the possibility immediately This comes down to warranty too. If it fails during the warranty period, which one does the OEM want to pay to replace: the expensive motor, or the cheap gearing?
BizarroLand 2y ago
Honestly, though, nothing has come along or happened to create the need for more power than what was found in the iphone 6 or 7. Modern phones are examples of too much power for too little reason as far as I am concerned.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

nicoburns 2y ago

You're never really forced to upgrade because of battery. If you don't want to get Apple to replace it (which though expensive is still much cheaper than a new phone), then you can take it to your local phone repair shop which will do it for not much more than the cost of a replacement battery.

yard2010 2y ago
In some versions of the iPhone the screen is maliciously connected to the board with strong adhesive making these replacements not easy at all.
- Gigachad 2y ago
  It’s fairly easy to open. They designed it so a cheap and inexperienced worker in the Apple Store can replace the battery quickly and without issues. They also made a massive improvement by designing an adhesive for the battery that detaches with electricity. So you no longer have to use pull tabs or heat.
- Someone 2y ago
  > the screen is maliciously connected to the board with strong adhesive That’s not necessarily malice. Using lots of glue makes the device stronger, and making glue that a) glues really well (if there’s as good as no bezel, how is the screen staying attached to the phone otherwise?), b) lasts for years in any climate and c) can be easily removed isn’t an easy problem.
  - KETHERCORTEX 2y ago
    Using glue is an anti-repair malice by itself. On my planet screws and gaskets were invented long ago.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      Screws are visible from the outside though. In any case, all it takes to repair a phone with a glued screen is a two face suction grip for about 20 dollars and an ordinary hair dryer. The nasty part of a phone repair, I will admit that, is scraping off the glue gunk - I had to repair a Google Pixel once where the battery was dead, and during removing the glue on the display unit border I apparently managed to damage the seal between the OLED display and the glass, exposing the OLED to oxygen which led to eventual oxidization and a new display panel.

StressedDev 2y ago

My last iPhone’s battery lasted about 5.5 years before it needed to be replaced. Replacing it cost about $90 + tax at the Apple store. The bottom line is Apple products do last and if you need a new battery, you can get one.