9 ms·

Windows 8 hits RTM status

83 points by Empro 14y ago

sohn17 14y ago
Is this relevant in this site? It's not related to Apple... please kill it soon...
- Karunamon 14y ago
  Oh sod off, troll. That isn't how it works and you know better.
  - cooldeal 14y ago
    Unfortunately, that's exactly how it seems to be working, with the post getting flagged and ranking way below the page and below other posts with less upvotes and posted earlier. Typical HN behavior really.
Metrop0218 14y ago
Exciting times. My predictions: Developers download it on August 15th and we'll see many reviews like we've seen about the RP. Some will hate it, some will love it. The fact that it's going to be much less buggy than RP will help a lot. Then on October 26th, all of the new touch devices will launch. At that point, we'll actually see why they focused on a touch interface, and things will make more sense. Some reviewers should install this on a touchscreen device and give it a proper review before that date though, it'd be nice to get some insight.
- eldavido 14y ago
  Agreed. The breadth of engineering that goes into a three-year release cycle is staggering. It'll take months for the market to fully digest everything that went in.
- stinos 14y ago
  "and things will make more sense" yup. At first I was like "wtf?" but then I saw their Surface and was like "now it all makes sense". Exciting indeed.
- daigoba66 14y ago
  Two problems: 1. There isn't a lot of good (in my opinion) touchscreen hardware out there [yet] which can run Windows 8. 2. I do all of my programming and productivity work on a desktop/laptop using software which would likely never benefit from touch UI (e.g. programming and systems administration).
  - simba-hiiipower 14y ago
    agree with you on (1), hence surface rt launching same day I guess. as for (2), I imagine everyone who does any sort of work on a pc is in the same boat on this. but I’ve found (been using the previews for a while now) that metro has a lot to offer beyond being a touch-optimized ui.. essentially, in using windows 8, the entire desktop has turned into a ‘work’ app (as well as ‘file manager’ and ‘advanced settings’ apps). I still can do everything I could before on the desktop, and still do when it comes to work-related tasks, but much of my other use has shifted to metro. things like casual web browsing, email, messaging, and music have all become metro experiences for me, and all those experiences have become markedly better (the interface just lends itself better to consumption-related tasks). in addition, it’s also pretty nice to have the ability to play a casual game here-and-there, and checking-in on news via apps is much more enjoyable then the web. that’s just my take on it. I think when people stop thinking about it as windows with metro tacked-on, and rather as a whole new experience + a very powerful ‘app’ that holds all functionality of classic windows one click away, they can better appreciate it. I think this will become more apparent once it's been out in the market and more apps are added so that people can spend more time in the metro environment.
    - Splines 14y ago
      I think you've hit the nail on the head. While Windows 8 desktop is pretty much identical to Windows 7 desktop, the rest of Windows 8 offers quite a lot. Metro works really well as a consumption interface - I was using it the other day to look at sports (looking for Olympic news), and I wished that there was an Olympics metro app. Trying to view olympic news through a browser on nbc.com feels so awkward compared to the sports metro app.
    - 14y ago
- WiseWeasel 14y ago
  My predictions are that the Surface with Windows RT will still be buggy, and will have very little software support at launch, leading to poor reviews and sales. Surface Pro will have good reviews when that comes out three months later, and that will truly showcase the design of Windows 8. Unfortunately, the bad press from the Surface and relatively high price compared to an entry-level iPad will hurt sales. For many potential desktop and laptop customers, however, Windows 8 will be frustrating, plagued with poor reviews, and there will be a huge market for computers preloaded with Windows 7 for many years to come. Here's a review of the touch aspects of Windows 8, btw: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/does-windows-8-succeed-as-a-true-tablet-operating-system/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/does-w...
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    I predict Windows RT will have more apps at launch than Android tablet currently exist.
    - WiseWeasel 14y ago
      Oh man, I'll take that bet.
      - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
        I don't know why that's so surprising. Android tablets have only gotten any attention since the Kindle Fire came out. Windows 8 was announced before that, in September. Even if Windows tablets completely bomb, there's still going to be millions of PCs with Metro on them and the Windows Store staring in their face. And even though Metro apps are (somewhat) less useful on a PC, sheer number of users tells you that there is some market there. Whereas before the Kindle there wasn't much of an Android tablet market. And the Kindle really only got developers to stick their toes in the water, Nexus 7 is what solidifies it as a platform worth developing on. So in my mind, Windows 8/RT has had developer support longer than Android tablets.
        14y ago
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
eldavido 14y ago
Since Windows 7, Microsoft has found themselves in the uncomfortable position between a downmarket competitor (Android) with which they can't be price-competitive, and a high-end, aspirational consumer brand (Apple) with non price-sensitive customers. Among all this, the teams who worked on this product (including several close friends) really busted ass to get it right. I think this will be the best version of Windows ever, and might be the first operating system that gets a touch/keyboard+mouse hybrid UI right.
- RivieraKid 14y ago
  Two distinct interfaces in one OS is right? Why not simply a single interface that would adapt? Something like resposive web sites (google.com looks differently on mobile, tablet and desktop).
  - praxulus 14y ago
    There may very well be one interface to rule them all, but it's not going to be the windows desktop that we all know and love. Removing that completely is going to be difficult to matter how great the alternative is, so if they want to have a touch interface it'll have to be as a distinct UI.
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    Google.com isn't responsive. Those are separate "apps" that they serve to you based on your UA string.
  - eldavido 14y ago
    The higher-end Surface will ship with a full Windows 8 build that supports the traditional desktop. It's meant for legacy customers with big investments in traditional line-of-business stuff (banks, insurance, traders) who run .NET apps on the desktop. This device is intended to compete with computers. The lower-end surface will be for consumers. It will run Windows RT (previously called WOA, "Windows-on-ARM"), and support Metro (touch) apps exclusively. Main expected software distribution channel is the Windows app store. This device is positioned against the iPad; it's an Apple-style "shrinkwrap" experience that resets everything for the sake of this version, which wouldn't ever fly in the business world. I've been studying this extensively because my company (Crittercism) will have a build of our mobile crash instrumentation on Windows RT from the day it launches. Email me at david@crittercism.com if you want access to the beta.
benzofuran 14y ago
I don't want to put it badly, but I feel like microsoft is really fumbling this by putting 2 months between the software going into circulation and the hardware it's been designed for launching. I'm about in the market for a new laptop or possibly a surface pro, but I have the feeling this is going to leave a bad taste in people's mouthes as Win8 on nontouch hardware isn't anything special, at least what I've seen with the DP.
- daigoba66 14y ago
  Normal consumers can't get their hands on it until October. But developers, system administrators, and OEMs can download the final bits starting later this month: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/08/01/windows-8-has-reached-the-rtm-milestone.aspx http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive.... This is so that they can be ready with applications and hardware for the official consumer launch in October.
- eldavido 14y ago
  It's completely unrealistic to give an OS drop to an OEM and expect them to start shipping hardware tomorrow. "RTM" was always more of an industry thing than something consumers care about, because it meant the final build of the OS that would ship en masse has been delivered to hardware vendors.
- kooshball 14y ago
  General availability date is same as the hardware release date. RTM is for OEMs and other manufacturers not consumers.
- Aaronontheweb 14y ago
  The time between RTM (release to manufacturing) and GA (general availability) is such because OEMs need 2 months to take the gold image of Windows 8, image it onto the tens of millions of new PCs that will be sold during the Holiday season, and then ship those devices back to all of the retail stores where they will be sold. The October 26th date effectively acts as an embargo to make sure that all of the OEMs get enough time to get their devices into market and can start selling at the same time. It would make the press / sales cycle extremely difficult to manage if the devices were available only from a few faster moving OEMs in a smaller number of markets, versus having everything everywhere at once. Hopefully that adds a little more clarity to it.
GrandTheftR 14y ago
I am actually excited with the potential of W8/Surface, a tablet can do real work is a win for me. I like the vision of the original TabletPC, but they failed to execute it. Seems they are getting it right this time based on playing with preview.
RexRollman 14y ago
I've tried both public releases and I have to say that I really don't care for Windows 8. The user interface is so schizophrenic that it's not funny. Sometimes I wonder if MS would have been better served offering two version: one with the new metro UI and one without.
- rlu 14y ago
  The whole point is to have devices in the near future which act as a tablet and then can convert into a laptop or even desktop if it gets docked to a large monitor and keyboard. Metro mainly for touch, desktop mainly for mouse/keyboard. One device, 3 scenarios. Does that not excite you at all?
  - Spooky23 14y ago
    Not really. Hybrid devices always suck.
  - randomfool 14y ago
    The big question is whether there's more similarity (today) between tablet and laptop than tablet and phone. Microsoft has bet on the tablet-laptop combo while Apple and Android have taken the tablet-phone route. If Apple does indeed release a 7" iPad then this further cements the tablet-phone approach. Microsoft will have difficulties competing here immediately because Win8's UI is not made to scale down that small and it would be awkward to release 7" devices running WP8 (2 different tablet OSes!). Most people agree that there needs to be more continuity between desktop and mobile and Microsoft is setting themselves up decently with Windows Phone 8 (based on the Win8 core and WinRT). My concern with Windows 8 is that it took a cheap route to extend to tablet UIs (the second shell, Metro), resulting in 3 UI platforms- desktop (classic shell), tablet (Metro), phone (WP8), rather than 2.
  - mtgx 14y ago
    But Microsoft is forcing you on Metro even on the desktop, which leads me to believe that they think Metro-only is the future, even for desktops.
  - 14y ago
re_todd 14y ago
I was shocked for a second, I thought it said "Windows 8 hits RTFM status"!
- mproud 14y ago
  Me too! If only companies compiled manuals for their products these days. I miss my old hard copy System 7 manual. Good times.
- Gormo 14y ago
  Given the fact that many interface functions in the Windows 8 UI are undiscoverable from within the UI, and require advance knowledge of mouse gestures, etc., this isn't quite so far off from the truth.
  - Aaronontheweb 14y ago
    "Given the fact that many interface functions in the Windows 8 UI are undiscoverable from within the UI" such as?
    - fsckin 14y ago
      Hot corners?
    - president 14y ago
      Start Menu
      - Aaronontheweb 14y ago
        All of the examples given are discoverable, even with a mouse and keyboard IMHO - particularly given that all of the keyboard shortcuts (such as the Windows key for the start screen and Alt + F4 for closing an app) all still work. The thing most desktop-oriented criticisms of Win8 overlook is that the overwhelming majority of computers that are going to ship with Win8 installed WILL HAVE TOUCH. Comparing the experience on an existing PC and extrapolating that to how the experience will feel on devices that are sold starting in October is Apples to Oranges.
bitwize 14y ago
This is going to be a marmite OS for sure. Microsoft has weathered that storm with Windows 95, though, so they should really tart up the marketing with licensed songs and sitcom actresses. Just really hammer home that this is what the future of the PC is going to be, and hey, Penny from The Big Bang Theory is a PC and loves her some Windows 8. Then once we've all gotten into the groove with Surfaces and touch screen media centers from HP, the criticisms will quiet down some.
topbanana 14y ago
The way I see it, the success of Windows 8 is pinned on the success of the tablets and phones. If they're really great products, at the right price, people will want more of the same on their desktop. I don't see this as a straight desktop refresh.
luminaobscura 14y ago
i really dont understand why metro apps run full screen on desktop pc. i have a 30" 2560x1600 monitor and metro apps seem ridiculous. i have 4 million pixels but i cannot see three metro apps together. what a silly idea.
- bntly 14y ago
  because it's not a desktop OS. It's a tablet OS shoe horned into PC Space. After giving it two weeks on my desktop i formatted and installed Windows 7. I won't go back to Windows 8 again.
- barista 14y ago
  I agree that the large displays are suboptimal for metro but the problem is not that you have a high resolution screen but the 30" size of it. I am going to bet that you are in a very small percentage of users who have such a large screen desktop. If you see the kind of devices people are picking up, a laptop is preferred over desktop and those rarely go above 17" and that size itself is too big for a portable device.
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    I am going to bet that you are in a very small percentage of users who have such a large screen desktop. Couple of points: 1) Large screens are getting really cheap. Occasionally ridiculously cheap, as in last week's bargain Korean LCD monitor threads. Today's $300 back-alley special is tomorrow's mainstream price point. 2) On the desktop, people with large screens are more valuable customers. They spend money on software and hardware. People with small screens don't. This generalization obviously breaks down when it comes to traditional Windows laptops, but Metro doesn't make any more sense for those than it does for white-box desktop PCs. Metro is a bet-the-company move, and I'll give Ballmer credit for that much. However, the board should have required him to pee in a cup before placing this particular wager.
- murki 14y ago
  You can if you drag the top of the full screen app to takea portion on the side. At least you can have two together like this.
DenisM 14y ago
What about Visual Studio? RTM as well?
- facorreia 14y ago
  Visual Studio 2012 and .NET 4.5 are complete and will be on MSDN on Aug 15th. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/somasegar/archive/2012/08/01/visual-studio-2012-and-net-4-5-complete.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/somasegar/archive/2012/08/01/visual-...
hxf148 14y ago
I think the hate is a bit reactionary and the popular argument to take because well it's the Internet and seemingly hates change. The Metro layer is the most useful Start Menu yet and the Explorer / Desktop ui is there as usual, faster than ever. It certainly is a presentation change when you first load it up but I predict that most people will get the hang of it pretty quickly. I did. I don't feel much of a disconnect honestly. It's just a bit different but not in a bad way overall. It's a OS ready for new / touch devices yet to come and will probably run apps from 1990 if you really need it. Windows 7 was the perfection of Windows 95 and this feels like the progress that comes after that.
- commandar 14y ago
  I disagree. If there's a reactionary element here, it's the Windows 8 design. It's Microsoft trying to shoehorn mobile elements into their desktop OS because they're not competitive in the mobile market. Having used W8 for a few months now, the problem is that the end product is half-baked, inconsistent, and confusing. I suppose you can call that reactionary hate of new UIs, but I'm a guy that used OS X when it was still running on PowerPC, was an early proponent of the UI changes in Vista, always thought the nerd hate for GNOME2 when it first came out was silly and thinks that the current hate for Unity is equally so, still thinks that WebOS was the most usable mobile OS to be released, etc. I've spent the past decade going out of my way to expose myself to as many new interfaces as I can get my hands on, and I'm generally quite receptive to change. Outside of the improved Explorer, I haven't been able to find very much at all to like about Windows 8.
hdivider 14y ago
I've been using Windows 8 for months, and while I've initially had the same reaction about that bloody schizophrenic UI, it's not hard to configure everything to look and feel almost exactly like Windows 7. What actual users will say about the new WinRT/WinDesktop model is beyond me. I imagine that the Windows Store will quickly fill with plenty of useful apps, so that the pain of living exclusively in WinRT will lessen somewhat.
- ktizo 14y ago
  I've been using Windows 8 for months, and while I've initially had the same reaction about that bloody schizophrenic UI, it's not hard to configure everything to look and feel almost exactly like Windows 7. So are you saying there are two horrible things, and only one is even usable?
  - hdivider 14y ago
    Maybe I should have expanded a little. What I meant was that while the WinRT environment is horrible to use on a touchless desktop environment (for me, at least), Windows 8 can easily be changed to feel almost exactly like Windows 7 (which I can use very efficiently). At the same time, whenever I have a touch-based device I can still make use of all the WinRT features. Long story short, Windows 8 may look like a UI disaster at first, but for devs at least it's almost irrelevant because you can change pretty much everything, and get used to or ignore the rest. Like I said earlier though, I'm not sure how much reconfiguration the mainstream user wants to do, or how easily they'll get used to WinRT.

83 points by Empro 14y ago

sohn17 14y ago

Is this relevant in this site? It's not related to Apple... please kill it soon...

Karunamon 14y ago
Oh sod off, troll. That isn't how it works and you know better.
- cooldeal 14y ago
  Unfortunately, that's exactly how it seems to be working, with the post getting flagged and ranking way below the page and below other posts with less upvotes and posted earlier. Typical HN behavior really.

Metrop0218 14y ago

Exciting times. My predictions: Developers download it on August 15th and we'll see many reviews like we've seen about the RP. Some will hate it, some will love it. The fact that it's going to be much less buggy than RP will help a lot. Then on October 26th, all of the new touch devices will launch. At that point, we'll actually see why they focused on a touch interface, and things will make more sense. Some reviewers should install this on a touchscreen device and give it a proper review before that date though, it'd be nice to get some insight.

eldavido 14y ago
Agreed. The breadth of engineering that goes into a three-year release cycle is staggering. It'll take months for the market to fully digest everything that went in.
stinos 14y ago
"and things will make more sense" yup. At first I was like "wtf?" but then I saw their Surface and was like "now it all makes sense". Exciting indeed.
daigoba66 14y ago
Two problems: 1. There isn't a lot of good (in my opinion) touchscreen hardware out there [yet] which can run Windows 8. 2. I do all of my programming and productivity work on a desktop/laptop using software which would likely never benefit from touch UI (e.g. programming and systems administration).
- simba-hiiipower 14y ago
  agree with you on (1), hence surface rt launching same day I guess. as for (2), I imagine everyone who does any sort of work on a pc is in the same boat on this. but I’ve found (been using the previews for a while now) that metro has a lot to offer beyond being a touch-optimized ui.. essentially, in using windows 8, the entire desktop has turned into a ‘work’ app (as well as ‘file manager’ and ‘advanced settings’ apps). I still can do everything I could before on the desktop, and still do when it comes to work-related tasks, but much of my other use has shifted to metro. things like casual web browsing, email, messaging, and music have all become metro experiences for me, and all those experiences have become markedly better (the interface just lends itself better to consumption-related tasks). in addition, it’s also pretty nice to have the ability to play a casual game here-and-there, and checking-in on news via apps is much more enjoyable then the web. that’s just my take on it. I think when people stop thinking about it as windows with metro tacked-on, and rather as a whole new experience + a very powerful ‘app’ that holds all functionality of classic windows one click away, they can better appreciate it. I think this will become more apparent once it's been out in the market and more apps are added so that people can spend more time in the metro environment.
  - Splines 14y ago
    I think you've hit the nail on the head. While Windows 8 desktop is pretty much identical to Windows 7 desktop, the rest of Windows 8 offers quite a lot. Metro works really well as a consumption interface - I was using it the other day to look at sports (looking for Olympic news), and I wished that there was an Olympics metro app. Trying to view olympic news through a browser on nbc.com feels so awkward compared to the sports metro app.
  - 14y ago
WiseWeasel 14y ago
My predictions are that the Surface with Windows RT will still be buggy, and will have very little software support at launch, leading to poor reviews and sales. Surface Pro will have good reviews when that comes out three months later, and that will truly showcase the design of Windows 8. Unfortunately, the bad press from the Surface and relatively high price compared to an entry-level iPad will hurt sales. For many potential desktop and laptop customers, however, Windows 8 will be frustrating, plagued with poor reviews, and there will be a huge market for computers preloaded with Windows 7 for many years to come. Here's a review of the touch aspects of Windows 8, btw: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/does-windows-8-succeed-as-a-true-tablet-operating-system/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/does-w...
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  I predict Windows RT will have more apps at launch than Android tablet currently exist.
  - WiseWeasel 14y ago
    Oh man, I'll take that bet.
    - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
      I don't know why that's so surprising. Android tablets have only gotten any attention since the Kindle Fire came out. Windows 8 was announced before that, in September. Even if Windows tablets completely bomb, there's still going to be millions of PCs with Metro on them and the Windows Store staring in their face. And even though Metro apps are (somewhat) less useful on a PC, sheer number of users tells you that there is some market there. Whereas before the Kindle there wasn't much of an Android tablet market. And the Kindle really only got developers to stick their toes in the water, Nexus 7 is what solidifies it as a platform worth developing on. So in my mind, Windows 8/RT has had developer support longer than Android tablets.
      - 14y ago
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

eldavido 14y ago

Since Windows 7, Microsoft has found themselves in the uncomfortable position between a downmarket competitor (Android) with which they can't be price-competitive, and a high-end, aspirational consumer brand (Apple) with non price-sensitive customers. Among all this, the teams who worked on this product (including several close friends) really busted ass to get it right. I think this will be the best version of Windows ever, and might be the first operating system that gets a touch/keyboard+mouse hybrid UI right.

RivieraKid 14y ago
Two distinct interfaces in one OS is right? Why not simply a single interface that would adapt? Something like resposive web sites (google.com looks differently on mobile, tablet and desktop).
- praxulus 14y ago
  There may very well be one interface to rule them all, but it's not going to be the windows desktop that we all know and love. Removing that completely is going to be difficult to matter how great the alternative is, so if they want to have a touch interface it'll have to be as a distinct UI.
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  Google.com isn't responsive. Those are separate "apps" that they serve to you based on your UA string.
- eldavido 14y ago
  The higher-end Surface will ship with a full Windows 8 build that supports the traditional desktop. It's meant for legacy customers with big investments in traditional line-of-business stuff (banks, insurance, traders) who run .NET apps on the desktop. This device is intended to compete with computers. The lower-end surface will be for consumers. It will run Windows RT (previously called WOA, "Windows-on-ARM"), and support Metro (touch) apps exclusively. Main expected software distribution channel is the Windows app store. This device is positioned against the iPad; it's an Apple-style "shrinkwrap" experience that resets everything for the sake of this version, which wouldn't ever fly in the business world. I've been studying this extensively because my company (Crittercism) will have a build of our mobile crash instrumentation on Windows RT from the day it launches. Email me at david@crittercism.com if you want access to the beta.

benzofuran 14y ago

I don't want to put it badly, but I feel like microsoft is really fumbling this by putting 2 months between the software going into circulation and the hardware it's been designed for launching. I'm about in the market for a new laptop or possibly a surface pro, but I have the feeling this is going to leave a bad taste in people's mouthes as Win8 on nontouch hardware isn't anything special, at least what I've seen with the DP.

daigoba66 14y ago
Normal consumers can't get their hands on it until October. But developers, system administrators, and OEMs can download the final bits starting later this month: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/08/01/windows-8-has-reached-the-rtm-milestone.aspx http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive.... This is so that they can be ready with applications and hardware for the official consumer launch in October.
eldavido 14y ago
It's completely unrealistic to give an OS drop to an OEM and expect them to start shipping hardware tomorrow. "RTM" was always more of an industry thing than something consumers care about, because it meant the final build of the OS that would ship en masse has been delivered to hardware vendors.
kooshball 14y ago
General availability date is same as the hardware release date. RTM is for OEMs and other manufacturers not consumers.
Aaronontheweb 14y ago
The time between RTM (release to manufacturing) and GA (general availability) is such because OEMs need 2 months to take the gold image of Windows 8, image it onto the tens of millions of new PCs that will be sold during the Holiday season, and then ship those devices back to all of the retail stores where they will be sold. The October 26th date effectively acts as an embargo to make sure that all of the OEMs get enough time to get their devices into market and can start selling at the same time. It would make the press / sales cycle extremely difficult to manage if the devices were available only from a few faster moving OEMs in a smaller number of markets, versus having everything everywhere at once. Hopefully that adds a little more clarity to it.

GrandTheftR 14y ago

I am actually excited with the potential of W8/Surface, a tablet can do real work is a win for me. I like the vision of the original TabletPC, but they failed to execute it. Seems they are getting it right this time based on playing with preview.

RexRollman 14y ago

I've tried both public releases and I have to say that I really don't care for Windows 8. The user interface is so schizophrenic that it's not funny. Sometimes I wonder if MS would have been better served offering two version: one with the new metro UI and one without.

rlu 14y ago
The whole point is to have devices in the near future which act as a tablet and then can convert into a laptop or even desktop if it gets docked to a large monitor and keyboard. Metro mainly for touch, desktop mainly for mouse/keyboard. One device, 3 scenarios. Does that not excite you at all?
- Spooky23 14y ago
  Not really. Hybrid devices always suck.
- randomfool 14y ago
  The big question is whether there's more similarity (today) between tablet and laptop than tablet and phone. Microsoft has bet on the tablet-laptop combo while Apple and Android have taken the tablet-phone route. If Apple does indeed release a 7" iPad then this further cements the tablet-phone approach. Microsoft will have difficulties competing here immediately because Win8's UI is not made to scale down that small and it would be awkward to release 7" devices running WP8 (2 different tablet OSes!). Most people agree that there needs to be more continuity between desktop and mobile and Microsoft is setting themselves up decently with Windows Phone 8 (based on the Win8 core and WinRT). My concern with Windows 8 is that it took a cheap route to extend to tablet UIs (the second shell, Metro), resulting in 3 UI platforms- desktop (classic shell), tablet (Metro), phone (WP8), rather than 2.
- mtgx 14y ago
  But Microsoft is forcing you on Metro even on the desktop, which leads me to believe that they think Metro-only is the future, even for desktops.
- 14y ago

re_todd 14y ago

I was shocked for a second, I thought it said "Windows 8 hits RTFM status"!

mproud 14y ago
Me too! If only companies compiled manuals for their products these days. I miss my old hard copy System 7 manual. Good times.
Gormo 14y ago
Given the fact that many interface functions in the Windows 8 UI are undiscoverable from within the UI, and require advance knowledge of mouse gestures, etc., this isn't quite so far off from the truth.
- Aaronontheweb 14y ago
  "Given the fact that many interface functions in the Windows 8 UI are undiscoverable from within the UI" such as?
  - fsckin 14y ago
    Hot corners?
  - president 14y ago
    Start Menu
    - Aaronontheweb 14y ago
      All of the examples given are discoverable, even with a mouse and keyboard IMHO - particularly given that all of the keyboard shortcuts (such as the Windows key for the start screen and Alt + F4 for closing an app) all still work. The thing most desktop-oriented criticisms of Win8 overlook is that the overwhelming majority of computers that are going to ship with Win8 installed WILL HAVE TOUCH. Comparing the experience on an existing PC and extrapolating that to how the experience will feel on devices that are sold starting in October is Apples to Oranges.

bitwize 14y ago

This is going to be a marmite OS for sure. Microsoft has weathered that storm with Windows 95, though, so they should really tart up the marketing with licensed songs and sitcom actresses. Just really hammer home that this is what the future of the PC is going to be, and hey, Penny from The Big Bang Theory is a PC and loves her some Windows 8. Then once we've all gotten into the groove with Surfaces and touch screen media centers from HP, the criticisms will quiet down some.

topbanana 14y ago

The way I see it, the success of Windows 8 is pinned on the success of the tablets and phones. If they're really great products, at the right price, people will want more of the same on their desktop. I don't see this as a straight desktop refresh.

luminaobscura 14y ago

i really dont understand why metro apps run full screen on desktop pc. i have a 30" 2560x1600 monitor and metro apps seem ridiculous. i have 4 million pixels but i cannot see three metro apps together. what a silly idea.

bntly 14y ago
because it's not a desktop OS. It's a tablet OS shoe horned into PC Space. After giving it two weeks on my desktop i formatted and installed Windows 7. I won't go back to Windows 8 again.
barista 14y ago
I agree that the large displays are suboptimal for metro but the problem is not that you have a high resolution screen but the 30" size of it. I am going to bet that you are in a very small percentage of users who have such a large screen desktop. If you see the kind of devices people are picking up, a laptop is preferred over desktop and those rarely go above 17" and that size itself is too big for a portable device.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  I am going to bet that you are in a very small percentage of users who have such a large screen desktop. Couple of points: 1) Large screens are getting really cheap. Occasionally ridiculously cheap, as in last week's bargain Korean LCD monitor threads. Today's $300 back-alley special is tomorrow's mainstream price point. 2) On the desktop, people with large screens are more valuable customers. They spend money on software and hardware. People with small screens don't. This generalization obviously breaks down when it comes to traditional Windows laptops, but Metro doesn't make any more sense for those than it does for white-box desktop PCs. Metro is a bet-the-company move, and I'll give Ballmer credit for that much. However, the board should have required him to pee in a cup before placing this particular wager.
murki 14y ago
You can if you drag the top of the full screen app to takea portion on the side. At least you can have two together like this.

DenisM 14y ago

What about Visual Studio? RTM as well?

facorreia 14y ago
Visual Studio 2012 and .NET 4.5 are complete and will be on MSDN on Aug 15th. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/somasegar/archive/2012/08/01/visual-studio-2012-and-net-4-5-complete.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/somasegar/archive/2012/08/01/visual-...

hxf148 14y ago

I think the hate is a bit reactionary and the popular argument to take because well it's the Internet and seemingly hates change. The Metro layer is the most useful Start Menu yet and the Explorer / Desktop ui is there as usual, faster than ever. It certainly is a presentation change when you first load it up but I predict that most people will get the hang of it pretty quickly. I did. I don't feel much of a disconnect honestly. It's just a bit different but not in a bad way overall. It's a OS ready for new / touch devices yet to come and will probably run apps from 1990 if you really need it. Windows 7 was the perfection of Windows 95 and this feels like the progress that comes after that.

commandar 14y ago
I disagree. If there's a reactionary element here, it's the Windows 8 design. It's Microsoft trying to shoehorn mobile elements into their desktop OS because they're not competitive in the mobile market. Having used W8 for a few months now, the problem is that the end product is half-baked, inconsistent, and confusing. I suppose you can call that reactionary hate of new UIs, but I'm a guy that used OS X when it was still running on PowerPC, was an early proponent of the UI changes in Vista, always thought the nerd hate for GNOME2 when it first came out was silly and thinks that the current hate for Unity is equally so, still thinks that WebOS was the most usable mobile OS to be released, etc. I've spent the past decade going out of my way to expose myself to as many new interfaces as I can get my hands on, and I'm generally quite receptive to change. Outside of the improved Explorer, I haven't been able to find very much at all to like about Windows 8.

hdivider 14y ago

I've been using Windows 8 for months, and while I've initially had the same reaction about that bloody schizophrenic UI, it's not hard to configure everything to look and feel almost exactly like Windows 7. What actual users will say about the new WinRT/WinDesktop model is beyond me. I imagine that the Windows Store will quickly fill with plenty of useful apps, so that the pain of living exclusively in WinRT will lessen somewhat.

ktizo 14y ago
I've been using Windows 8 for months, and while I've initially had the same reaction about that bloody schizophrenic UI, it's not hard to configure everything to look and feel almost exactly like Windows 7. So are you saying there are two horrible things, and only one is even usable?
- hdivider 14y ago
  Maybe I should have expanded a little. What I meant was that while the WinRT environment is horrible to use on a touchless desktop environment (for me, at least), Windows 8 can easily be changed to feel almost exactly like Windows 7 (which I can use very efficiently). At the same time, whenever I have a touch-based device I can still make use of all the WinRT features. Long story short, Windows 8 may look like a UI disaster at first, but for devs at least it's almost irrelevant because you can change pretty much everything, and get used to or ignore the rest. Like I said earlier though, I'm not sure how much reconfiguration the mainstream user wants to do, or how easily they'll get used to WinRT.