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This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's m

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the same stories too. Management is clueless in general and the profession, although respected by the public, is not generally respected by managers, executives or journalists. Most developers employed these days are not competent, regardless of gender, man and woman alike. The few that are competent cluster in competent firms where harassment and disrespect of employees, man and woman alike, is not tolerated. I'm a bit hyper-aware of this right now. I resigned my job last month after 6 months of abuse and harassment of engineers by non-engineering sales staff, which they viewed as hilarious pranks on worthless geeks who think they are so smart. Complaints to management were handled with suggestions to "man up", "learn to deal" and "stop being a pussy". I received over 100% salary increase in return for my willingness to quit and leave for a more sane firm. If you are good and you are being harassed, there is high demand for people who are good. The companies that permit harassment deserve to fail. Leave and don't look back. I offer this advise because I would hate for someone to think they can't find a place where there work is appreciated and they are valued because of their gender or race. There are places out there that are sane and professional, and they are generally more profitable so you make more as well. The only thing is that you need to be competent, that is the most important thing in this field because that's your ticket to success.

space_unicorn 14y ago
The article has nothing to do with harassment. As a female in the software industry, I have experienced harassment perhaps once, and it wasn't from my colleagues. Stereotype threat can occur even at 'sane firms'. It has to do with a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting.
- waqf 14y ago
  The article appeared to be arguing: women underperform because they spend mental effort worrying about stereotype threat. So let's educate them about stereotype threat so they'll be more conscious of it. That sounds obviously counterproductive. Did I misunderstand?
  - silentbicycle 14y ago
    It's not counterproductive at all. Knowing how to deal with such biases (whether they're internal or external) makes them easier to overcome. For example, I'm self-taught, and while I have many years experience now and have done some significant projects, I still second guess myself quite a bit. (This is often called "Imposter Syndrome", see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome.) I found it tremendously helpful to discover that people I've looked up to for years have felt the same way, and had helpful suggestions for getting over the internalized anxiety. Everybody has nagging fears like this. Learning how to see them for what they are and to avoid making things worse for other people benefits everybody.
  - bct 14y ago
    You're mixing different layers of worrying. People underperform because they're worrying about problem X (confirming stereotypes). Let's refer to this as problem Y (stereotype threat). Education about problem X would be counterproductive; the article is suggesting education about problem Y.
  - demewmew 14y ago
    Being able to label that thing that's been interfering with my ability to get my work done is definitely a productive thing. But I also think there's another, far more useful purpose for educating people suffering from stereotype threat about stereotype threat: they can then put a label to what is keeping them from getting their work done when asking their peers, mentors, or managers for help. And then their peers, mentors, and managers can pay attention to situations that might provoke stereotype threat, try to lessen them, and otherwise show a bit of compassion for the person suffering from it. I say this personally: learning about stereotype threat cleared a huge communication roadblock I'd been having for years with managers and peers, and as soon as we were on the same page we were actually able to address some of the issues contributing to it.
- pwny 14y ago
  While you make a point that it doesn't always have to do with harassment, your second argument is very weak. There's nothing anyone but yourself can do about "[...] a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting." If your issue lies with what other people MIGHT be thinking, then the issue is within your own self-confidence. I agree that stereotypes are destructive, but only when they actually are present. One should be careful not to feel threatened by hypothetical thoughts from hypothetical co-workers before the fact.
  - space_unicorn 14y ago
    There's nothing anyone but yourself can do about "[...] a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting." Agreed. On the other hand, for a person thinking negatively about himself or herself, the absence of feedback will often be interpreted as negative feedback. Being nice to our colleagues (male or female or other minority group) and giving positive feedback when it's appropriate tends to increase a team's overall morale and productivity.
    - pwny 14y ago
      Absolutely. On a related note, we seem to be a lot better and consistent at giving negative feedback. Encouraging positive feedback and giving more of it to young people as they grow up would probably go a long way.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
danilocampos 14y ago
If I have understood you correctly... Women don't have unique, unnecessary, gender-specific challenges because once the suits were mean to you? Puzzling reasoning.
- philwelch 14y ago
  Something is hardly a "gender-specific challenge" when both men and women report running into it, yes?
  - surrealize 14y ago
    Yes, both men and women encounter stereotype threat. However, in programming, stereotype threat works mainly against women. So in context, yes, it's gender-specific.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      I'd say "stereotype threat" is more of a neurotic-specific thing than anything else.
      - surrealize 14y ago
        It's well supported experimentally.
- droithomme 14y ago
  Yep, I'm just a pussy and need to man up, you got it. Must have got my sensitive feelings hurt, that's all this is. Very insightful comment, "bro".
  - danilocampos 14y ago
    Your language reveals much to confirm my initial suspicions. Good luck in your adventures.
    - 14y ago
timee 14y ago
In talking to my female colleagues and female friends in the engineering profession, I would say that there are a lot more forces at work that make it difficult for females and some minorities to realize their potential. Most that are successful have found ways to get through them, but it doesn't mean that it's an ideal situation. As the author points out, it's largely due to the perception of the events at school or in a workplace than the true motivations behind them, which you might argue that a successful women engineer needs more mental strength to get through these barriers. As you mention, there is a lack of quality talent and it would be in our best interest to bring out the potential in as many people as possible. It may be that society happened to turn off countless competent engineers due to these perceptions and social forces. I believe the question is less on how do you balance the workplace, but rather how do you bring out the best out of people so that the pool of strong engineers becomes bigger.
flatline 14y ago
The biggest complaint that I've heard from female engineers who have been around for more than a couple years is that there are so few of them, and that it is such a male-dominated industry. I can't speak for them, but I have my own complaints on this front, as a guy. Overlooking the specific gender biases that women face, there are real differences between how men and women work and interact, and I find it rather tedious to just work with men all the time. I have come to despise many aspects of programmer culture, and I feel that a lot of what I dislike is due to a heavily male influence. "Rock star", "ninja", "brogrammer" and the like all sound like words generated by immature men in roles of power. I think that the more egoistic, individualistic trends in work behavior are outgrowths of a distinctly male influence. This behavior contributes to the poor perception of the profession.
- Evbn 14y ago
  The only people I have ever seen use the terms rock star or ninja are women in HR/Recruiting.
  - jamesbritt 14y ago
    Counterdote: I've heard men say it. But they were never programmers or engineers, always people in either sales or management.
CJefferson 14y ago
I met plenty of women programmers who are good at their jobs who have made this kind of argument. Many have left computing. What is different about the women you have met, and I have met, I'm not sure. But I can tell you many such women exist.
peterwwillis 14y ago
This is an ongoing made up fake crisis ... because ... I've yet to see Your personal experience does not form reality. Well, your own reality perhaps, but the rest of us live in a world where the sum of others' experiences prove what is made up or not. I'm not saying there is a crisis, but you're saying that there isn't just because you haven't heard about it personally. Which is kind of like saying there is no such thing as three-toed sloths because you've never had someone talk to you about seeing one in person.
bethly 14y ago
I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems. I am sorry you encountered gender-policing behavior at your last job: that is exactly what I, as a feminist, am trying to fight against for both men and women. Saying that because patriarchy hurts everyone it isn't a problem to be solved, though, is unhelpful. It is a matter of "yes, and": it hurts men and it hurts women measurably more (https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/bitstream/1808/258/1/Schmitt_Branscombe_perceiving.pdf https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/bitstream/1808/258/1/Sc...) and in neither case is it acceptable. It's not just at work: conferences, meet ups and most of all online I encounter attitudes every day that either demand I act like a man, just as you did. The difference between us is that they aren't asking you to do something that is biologically impossible, and reminding you in the process that you will never, ever be able to simply fit in to your chosen profession.
- cantastoria 14y ago
  I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems. Do you really start thinking about how bad woman are believed to be at science and math every time you speak to a male colleague or walk into a room full of men? I don't know, I'm asking... The difference between us is that they aren't asking you to do something that is biologically impossible Are you suggesting that male programmer behavior has a biological basis?
  - bethly 14y ago
    It's not that conscious, but every time I walk into a room full of men... hm, the closest analogy I can think of is arriving at what you thought was a fancy dress party only to discover everyone else is in jeans and a t-shirt. Every time I take a deep breath and step into a crowd where people assume I'm from HR or I'm with whatever man I'm chatting with that second. It's not even that I think about it all the time; it's that I am subtly reminded of it over and over again. It is impossible to forget, because the environment and people around me reproduce them, mostly entirely unintentionally. Even just the lack of women is a subtle, ever-present reminder that I am doing something weird and kind of awkward. It's not something that is easy to describe. I'd compare and contrast this with, say, science fiction conventions, which are usually 40% women and where I encounter none of the same awkward out-of-place-ness. Still uber-nerdy, still has lots of socially-awkward men, way fewer reminders of how many stereotypes I violated getting there. As for the biology quip, I apologize for being unclear. I meant that telling me to "man up" would be like telling you to "be a woman": illogical. The only thing I was attributing to biology was gender itself (and even that can be mental, physical, both or neither.)
xzqx 14y ago
I am a woman engineer and agree with everything you said, seriously

space_unicorn 14y ago

The article has nothing to do with harassment. As a female in the software industry, I have experienced harassment perhaps once, and it wasn't from my colleagues. Stereotype threat can occur even at 'sane firms'. It has to do with a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting.

waqf 14y ago
The article appeared to be arguing: women underperform because they spend mental effort worrying about stereotype threat. So let's educate them about stereotype threat so they'll be more conscious of it. That sounds obviously counterproductive. Did I misunderstand?
- silentbicycle 14y ago
  It's not counterproductive at all. Knowing how to deal with such biases (whether they're internal or external) makes them easier to overcome. For example, I'm self-taught, and while I have many years experience now and have done some significant projects, I still second guess myself quite a bit. (This is often called "Imposter Syndrome", see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome.) I found it tremendously helpful to discover that people I've looked up to for years have felt the same way, and had helpful suggestions for getting over the internalized anxiety. Everybody has nagging fears like this. Learning how to see them for what they are and to avoid making things worse for other people benefits everybody.
- bct 14y ago
  You're mixing different layers of worrying. People underperform because they're worrying about problem X (confirming stereotypes). Let's refer to this as problem Y (stereotype threat). Education about problem X would be counterproductive; the article is suggesting education about problem Y.
- demewmew 14y ago
  Being able to label that thing that's been interfering with my ability to get my work done is definitely a productive thing. But I also think there's another, far more useful purpose for educating people suffering from stereotype threat about stereotype threat: they can then put a label to what is keeping them from getting their work done when asking their peers, mentors, or managers for help. And then their peers, mentors, and managers can pay attention to situations that might provoke stereotype threat, try to lessen them, and otherwise show a bit of compassion for the person suffering from it. I say this personally: learning about stereotype threat cleared a huge communication roadblock I'd been having for years with managers and peers, and as soon as we were on the same page we were actually able to address some of the issues contributing to it.
pwny 14y ago
While you make a point that it doesn't always have to do with harassment, your second argument is very weak. There's nothing anyone but yourself can do about "[...] a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting." If your issue lies with what other people MIGHT be thinking, then the issue is within your own self-confidence. I agree that stereotypes are destructive, but only when they actually are present. One should be careful not to feel threatened by hypothetical thoughts from hypothetical co-workers before the fact.
- space_unicorn 14y ago
  There's nothing anyone but yourself can do about "[...] a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting." Agreed. On the other hand, for a person thinking negatively about himself or herself, the absence of feedback will often be interpreted as negative feedback. Being nice to our colleagues (male or female or other minority group) and giving positive feedback when it's appropriate tends to increase a team's overall morale and productivity.
  - pwny 14y ago
    Absolutely. On a related note, we seem to be a lot better and consistent at giving negative feedback. Encouraging positive feedback and giving more of it to young people as they grow up would probably go a long way.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

danilocampos 14y ago

If I have understood you correctly... Women don't have unique, unnecessary, gender-specific challenges because once the suits were mean to you? Puzzling reasoning.

philwelch 14y ago
Something is hardly a "gender-specific challenge" when both men and women report running into it, yes?
- surrealize 14y ago
  Yes, both men and women encounter stereotype threat. However, in programming, stereotype threat works mainly against women. So in context, yes, it's gender-specific.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    I'd say "stereotype threat" is more of a neurotic-specific thing than anything else.
    - surrealize 14y ago
      It's well supported experimentally.
droithomme 14y ago
Yep, I'm just a pussy and need to man up, you got it. Must have got my sensitive feelings hurt, that's all this is. Very insightful comment, "bro".
- danilocampos 14y ago
  Your language reveals much to confirm my initial suspicions. Good luck in your adventures.
  - 14y ago

timee 14y ago

In talking to my female colleagues and female friends in the engineering profession, I would say that there are a lot more forces at work that make it difficult for females and some minorities to realize their potential. Most that are successful have found ways to get through them, but it doesn't mean that it's an ideal situation. As the author points out, it's largely due to the perception of the events at school or in a workplace than the true motivations behind them, which you might argue that a successful women engineer needs more mental strength to get through these barriers. As you mention, there is a lack of quality talent and it would be in our best interest to bring out the potential in as many people as possible. It may be that society happened to turn off countless competent engineers due to these perceptions and social forces. I believe the question is less on how do you balance the workplace, but rather how do you bring out the best out of people so that the pool of strong engineers becomes bigger.

flatline 14y ago

The biggest complaint that I've heard from female engineers who have been around for more than a couple years is that there are so few of them, and that it is such a male-dominated industry. I can't speak for them, but I have my own complaints on this front, as a guy. Overlooking the specific gender biases that women face, there are real differences between how men and women work and interact, and I find it rather tedious to just work with men all the time. I have come to despise many aspects of programmer culture, and I feel that a lot of what I dislike is due to a heavily male influence. "Rock star", "ninja", "brogrammer" and the like all sound like words generated by immature men in roles of power. I think that the more egoistic, individualistic trends in work behavior are outgrowths of a distinctly male influence. This behavior contributes to the poor perception of the profession.

Evbn 14y ago
The only people I have ever seen use the terms rock star or ninja are women in HR/Recruiting.
- jamesbritt 14y ago
  Counterdote: I've heard men say it. But they were never programmers or engineers, always people in either sales or management.

CJefferson 14y ago

I met plenty of women programmers who are good at their jobs who have made this kind of argument. Many have left computing. What is different about the women you have met, and I have met, I'm not sure. But I can tell you many such women exist.

peterwwillis 14y ago

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis ... because ... I've yet to see Your personal experience does not form reality. Well, your own reality perhaps, but the rest of us live in a world where the sum of others' experiences prove what is made up or not. I'm not saying there is a crisis, but you're saying that there isn't just because you haven't heard about it personally. Which is kind of like saying there is no such thing as three-toed sloths because you've never had someone talk to you about seeing one in person.

bethly 14y ago

I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems. I am sorry you encountered gender-policing behavior at your last job: that is exactly what I, as a feminist, am trying to fight against for both men and women. Saying that because patriarchy hurts everyone it isn't a problem to be solved, though, is unhelpful. It is a matter of "yes, and": it hurts men and it hurts women measurably more (https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/bitstream/1808/258/1/Schmitt_Branscombe_perceiving.pdf https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/bitstream/1808/258/1/Sc...) and in neither case is it acceptable. It's not just at work: conferences, meet ups and most of all online I encounter attitudes every day that either demand I act like a man, just as you did. The difference between us is that they aren't asking you to do something that is biologically impossible, and reminding you in the process that you will never, ever be able to simply fit in to your chosen profession.

cantastoria 14y ago
I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems. Do you really start thinking about how bad woman are believed to be at science and math every time you speak to a male colleague or walk into a room full of men? I don't know, I'm asking... The difference between us is that they aren't asking you to do something that is biologically impossible Are you suggesting that male programmer behavior has a biological basis?
- bethly 14y ago
  It's not that conscious, but every time I walk into a room full of men... hm, the closest analogy I can think of is arriving at what you thought was a fancy dress party only to discover everyone else is in jeans and a t-shirt. Every time I take a deep breath and step into a crowd where people assume I'm from HR or I'm with whatever man I'm chatting with that second. It's not even that I think about it all the time; it's that I am subtly reminded of it over and over again. It is impossible to forget, because the environment and people around me reproduce them, mostly entirely unintentionally. Even just the lack of women is a subtle, ever-present reminder that I am doing something weird and kind of awkward. It's not something that is easy to describe. I'd compare and contrast this with, say, science fiction conventions, which are usually 40% women and where I encounter none of the same awkward out-of-place-ness. Still uber-nerdy, still has lots of socially-awkward men, way fewer reminders of how many stereotypes I violated getting there. As for the biology quip, I apologize for being unclear. I meant that telling me to "man up" would be like telling you to "be a woman": illogical. The only thing I was attributing to biology was gender itself (and even that can be mental, physical, both or neither.)

xzqx 14y ago

I am a woman engineer and agree with everything you said, seriously