3 ms·

When I plead with my direct reports to please comply with the company policy of in the office 3 days a week, and I am deluged with a flood of complaints, I sup

by JackFr 2y ago

When I plead with my direct reports to please comply with the company policy of in the office 3 days a week, and I am deluged with a flood of complaints, I suppose sometimes I’m less empathetic than I might be. It’s not because I’m rich. I am not. I don’t own a home nor do I retain any personal assistants. I’m less empathetic than I might be because I came into the office 5 days a week for 30 years. My wife also worked. We raised three kids. I went to night school. It’s all very doable, and honestly not that hard. Now I understand that technology has changed circumstances, and what was not technologically feasible 30 years ago is easy today. But with respect to empathy, most of the commenters here could bear to examine, if only just for a minute, the idea that the executives are acting in good faith, and just trying to run the company effectively and efficiently.

g-nair 2y ago
I haven’t been working for nearly as long - coming up on 7 years here. I enjoy going into the office because I enjoy spending time with my team - they’re all really cool! However, I find a good analogy for RTO to be the case of student loan forgiveness. Just because one individual had to pay their own tuition or student loans off, doesn’t mean that individual should wish that all future students share the same fate. Just because you worked in an office for 30 years and it was manageable, or just because I like coming in for social reasons, need not result in our scorn for those who thrive by not coming into an office.
- milesrout 2y ago
  Student loan forgiveness is using taxpayer money to pay off the loans of a huge number of people with good jobs and plenty of money. You chose to borrow that money. Borrow. It wasn't a gift. The idea that people are only against student loan forgiveness because they paid off their own loans and think others should share in their suffering or something is absurd. It is nothing to do with that at all. It is because you are stealing to give money to people that do not need it. If talk of student loan forgiveness were limited to people with very limited incomes with no hope of ever paying off their loans, it would be one thing. But it is in reality about a massive transfer of wealth to people with degrees: people with plenty of earning capacity already. >Just because you worked in an office for 30 years and it was manageable, or just because I like coming in for social reasons, need not result in our scorn for those who thrive by not coming into an office. The persom you replied to didn't say RTO was good because he worked in the office for 30 years. He said he had limited sympathy for that reason. I am sure his reason for imploring his team to RTO is that he recognises that people do two thirds of fuck all at home.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    I’m 50 and he sounds like the prototypical boomer. It’s like the old people who can’t fathom why new grads would spend months “grinding leetCode” to make $170K+ right out of college when the boomer bought their first house in 2002 for $170k (like I did).
  - g-nair 2y ago
    You made plenty of points that I don’t necessarily agree with, but the one I’d love to see data for is that the people’s who’s loans are being forgiven don’t “need” that money!
polishdude20 2y ago
I'd come into the office 3 days a week if I lived close to the office. I live far away because the office is downtown. Downtown is expensive to live in. I think a lot of people who want to work from home want to not commute for an hour per day or can't afford to live nearby the office.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
taysix 2y ago
> I’m less empathetic than I might be because I came into the office 5 days a week for 30 years. My wife also worked. We raised three kids. I went to night school. It’s all very doable, and honestly not that hard. To me this sentiment reads as "It sucked for me, therefore it needs to suck for you too. Feel the pain of previous generations!" What happened to wanting to make life BETTER for people? Better for the next generation? As someone that would complain about RTO mandates if I had to, I know that it's do-able, but does it make my life better? No, it doesn't. Imagine your last 30 years of not having to go in 5 days a week? Think how much more time you would have had to do all the things you listed: raise your kids, spend time studying night school, etc. How much further ahead would you have gotten with that extra time?
- II2II 2y ago
  The first thing that stuck out to me (emphasis added): >> When I plead with my direct reports to please comply with the company policy of in the office 3 days a week Someone higher up is the decision maker here. They are acknowledging a lack of empathy while implementing those policies and trying to explain why they may lack empathy in the process. Yet, at the end of the day, they are simply one of the people who has to ensure compliance. > Imagine your last 30 years of not having to go in 5 days a week? There are likely a lot of managers out there arguing against company mandates. The thing is, it is difficult to discuss their struggles with higher levels of management without creating a negative impact (or a negative impact of a different sort) in the workplace. So they have to carry out the orders without actually discussing how they feel about those orders with their reports.
- JackFr 2y ago
  > To me this sentiment reads as "It sucked for me, therefore it needs to suck for you too. Feel the pain of previous generations!" I explicitly say it didn’t suck and it wasn’t painful.
  - javcasas 2y ago
    What sucks and is painful is in the eye of the beholder. Enjoy your kinks, but don't force them upon others
dutchCourage 2y ago
I'm sure some might be acting in good faith. Nonetheless, I believe they're generally wrong. From experience going to the office for the sake of going to the office doesn't help. The company I worked for who had the best company culture was fully remote but put a strong emphasis on communication. Meanwhile, my current company insists that people show up to the office regularly, and it's costing me 8h per week and I get a less comfortable work environment. It does nothing to solve our communication issues however. Even worse, it feels like some execs think the company culture will build itself just by putting people together in a room. It reminds me of people who schedule meetings because they don't know how to organize their thoughts and write down what they want to say. edit: Rephrasing, I got emotional. I don't know how you managed to have a life with three kids, night school and a full time job + commute. All my free time goes to my child and family. I barely have time for hobbies. If a company wants to take more of my time they better have a compelling reason.
Freedom2 2y ago
> just trying to run the company effectively and efficiently. So perhaps they should present evidence or data? Any at all will do. So far there has been very little evidence, especially from the big dogs, that actually present a positive view of RTO with respect to productivity.
dingnuts 2y ago
it's as simple as this: working from home is a benefit, like 401(k) matching. If you hire remote workers, and then tell them they have to come in three days a week, you had better have a compensation renegotiation or you sure will get complaints, because you effectively just cut everyone's pay. and your excuse is that you did it so everyone has to? no, I chose to go remote to access property I can afford, based on the agreement I negotiated. if you unilaterally change that as an employer, you cannot be surprised when your reports act like you're cutting their pay, because you are!
goosejuice 2y ago
It won't be more effective or efficient if they don't want to be there. Nothing hurts productivity more than apathy.
mystifyingpoi 2y ago
> and just trying to run the company effectively and efficiently The issue is, during covid, many companies thrived, the sales skyrocketed and everyone was happier than ever. Now, they backpedal and say that we need to go back butts in chairs for reasons, but there is zero mention of the previous prosperity and why can't we just keep doing the same. It's a lie, simple as that.
arkadiytehgraet 2y ago
So you don't own a house after working for 30 years and you of all people are speaking about efficiency? This is really something to think about for you, mate
francisofascii 2y ago
Because the RTO mandate is not to increase productivity, it is to cause people to quit or give a reason to lay people off. It has NOTHING to do with making workers more productive. Also 20 years ago it was much more doable to live close to an office. Real estate prices are insane now, even in smaller cities. Also, it is hard to work full time, commute, raise kids, and keep a marriage successful. It doesn't leave much wiggle rooms for exercise, cooking, recreation, etc. It is a rat race. It is why people become overweight, have heart attacks, and get cancer. Keynes prediction of 15 hour work weeks didn't come true, despite unprecedented productivity growth. It is a shame.
scarface_74 2y ago
I’ve also worked almost 30 years. Even in 1996 I was able to work remotely occasionally by logging into a mainframe (DEC VAX and Stratus VOS) for half of my work and using PCAnyWhere for Windows based work over a modem. I’ve worked remotely since March 2020 across three companies. I don’t work in an office. If you need me in an office for some face time, put me on a plane. I initially turned down the chance to interview at Amazon because they wanted me to uproot my life after Covid and only ended up working there because they suggested I interview at AWS Professionsl Services. When GCP reached out to me multiple times about a similar position after leaving AWS and they said I would have to be in the office, I immediately ended the conversation.

by JackFr 2y ago

g-nair 2y ago

I haven’t been working for nearly as long - coming up on 7 years here. I enjoy going into the office because I enjoy spending time with my team - they’re all really cool! However, I find a good analogy for RTO to be the case of student loan forgiveness. Just because one individual had to pay their own tuition or student loans off, doesn’t mean that individual should wish that all future students share the same fate. Just because you worked in an office for 30 years and it was manageable, or just because I like coming in for social reasons, need not result in our scorn for those who thrive by not coming into an office.

milesrout 2y ago
Student loan forgiveness is using taxpayer money to pay off the loans of a huge number of people with good jobs and plenty of money. You chose to borrow that money. Borrow. It wasn't a gift. The idea that people are only against student loan forgiveness because they paid off their own loans and think others should share in their suffering or something is absurd. It is nothing to do with that at all. It is because you are stealing to give money to people that do not need it. If talk of student loan forgiveness were limited to people with very limited incomes with no hope of ever paying off their loans, it would be one thing. But it is in reality about a massive transfer of wealth to people with degrees: people with plenty of earning capacity already. >Just because you worked in an office for 30 years and it was manageable, or just because I like coming in for social reasons, need not result in our scorn for those who thrive by not coming into an office. The persom you replied to didn't say RTO was good because he worked in the office for 30 years. He said he had limited sympathy for that reason. I am sure his reason for imploring his team to RTO is that he recognises that people do two thirds of fuck all at home.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I’m 50 and he sounds like the prototypical boomer. It’s like the old people who can’t fathom why new grads would spend months “grinding leetCode” to make $170K+ right out of college when the boomer bought their first house in 2002 for $170k (like I did).
- g-nair 2y ago
  You made plenty of points that I don’t necessarily agree with, but the one I’d love to see data for is that the people’s who’s loans are being forgiven don’t “need” that money!

polishdude20 2y ago

I'd come into the office 3 days a week if I lived close to the office. I live far away because the office is downtown. Downtown is expensive to live in. I think a lot of people who want to work from home want to not commute for an hour per day or can't afford to live nearby the office.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

taysix 2y ago

> I’m less empathetic than I might be because I came into the office 5 days a week for 30 years. My wife also worked. We raised three kids. I went to night school. It’s all very doable, and honestly not that hard. To me this sentiment reads as "It sucked for me, therefore it needs to suck for you too. Feel the pain of previous generations!" What happened to wanting to make life BETTER for people? Better for the next generation? As someone that would complain about RTO mandates if I had to, I know that it's do-able, but does it make my life better? No, it doesn't. Imagine your last 30 years of not having to go in 5 days a week? Think how much more time you would have had to do all the things you listed: raise your kids, spend time studying night school, etc. How much further ahead would you have gotten with that extra time?

II2II 2y ago
The first thing that stuck out to me (emphasis added): >> When I plead with my direct reports to please comply with the company policy of in the office 3 days a week Someone higher up is the decision maker here. They are acknowledging a lack of empathy while implementing those policies and trying to explain why they may lack empathy in the process. Yet, at the end of the day, they are simply one of the people who has to ensure compliance. > Imagine your last 30 years of not having to go in 5 days a week? There are likely a lot of managers out there arguing against company mandates. The thing is, it is difficult to discuss their struggles with higher levels of management without creating a negative impact (or a negative impact of a different sort) in the workplace. So they have to carry out the orders without actually discussing how they feel about those orders with their reports.
JackFr 2y ago
> To me this sentiment reads as "It sucked for me, therefore it needs to suck for you too. Feel the pain of previous generations!" I explicitly say it didn’t suck and it wasn’t painful.
- javcasas 2y ago
  What sucks and is painful is in the eye of the beholder. Enjoy your kinks, but don't force them upon others

dutchCourage 2y ago

I'm sure some might be acting in good faith. Nonetheless, I believe they're generally wrong. From experience going to the office for the sake of going to the office doesn't help. The company I worked for who had the best company culture was fully remote but put a strong emphasis on communication. Meanwhile, my current company insists that people show up to the office regularly, and it's costing me 8h per week and I get a less comfortable work environment. It does nothing to solve our communication issues however. Even worse, it feels like some execs think the company culture will build itself just by putting people together in a room. It reminds me of people who schedule meetings because they don't know how to organize their thoughts and write down what they want to say. edit: Rephrasing, I got emotional. I don't know how you managed to have a life with three kids, night school and a full time job + commute. All my free time goes to my child and family. I barely have time for hobbies. If a company wants to take more of my time they better have a compelling reason.

Freedom2 2y ago

> just trying to run the company effectively and efficiently. So perhaps they should present evidence or data? Any at all will do. So far there has been very little evidence, especially from the big dogs, that actually present a positive view of RTO with respect to productivity.

dingnuts 2y ago

it's as simple as this: working from home is a benefit, like 401(k) matching. If you hire remote workers, and then tell them they have to come in three days a week, you had better have a compensation renegotiation or you sure will get complaints, because you effectively just cut everyone's pay. and your excuse is that you did it so everyone has to? no, I chose to go remote to access property I can afford, based on the agreement I negotiated. if you unilaterally change that as an employer, you cannot be surprised when your reports act like you're cutting their pay, because you are!

goosejuice 2y ago

It won't be more effective or efficient if they don't want to be there. Nothing hurts productivity more than apathy.

mystifyingpoi 2y ago

> and just trying to run the company effectively and efficiently The issue is, during covid, many companies thrived, the sales skyrocketed and everyone was happier than ever. Now, they backpedal and say that we need to go back butts in chairs for reasons, but there is zero mention of the previous prosperity and why can't we just keep doing the same. It's a lie, simple as that.

arkadiytehgraet 2y ago

So you don't own a house after working for 30 years and you of all people are speaking about efficiency? This is really something to think about for you, mate

francisofascii 2y ago

Because the RTO mandate is not to increase productivity, it is to cause people to quit or give a reason to lay people off. It has NOTHING to do with making workers more productive. Also 20 years ago it was much more doable to live close to an office. Real estate prices are insane now, even in smaller cities. Also, it is hard to work full time, commute, raise kids, and keep a marriage successful. It doesn't leave much wiggle rooms for exercise, cooking, recreation, etc. It is a rat race. It is why people become overweight, have heart attacks, and get cancer. Keynes prediction of 15 hour work weeks didn't come true, despite unprecedented productivity growth. It is a shame.

scarface_74 2y ago

I’ve also worked almost 30 years. Even in 1996 I was able to work remotely occasionally by logging into a mainframe (DEC VAX and Stratus VOS) for half of my work and using PCAnyWhere for Windows based work over a modem. I’ve worked remotely since March 2020 across three companies. I don’t work in an office. If you need me in an office for some face time, put me on a plane. I initially turned down the chance to interview at Amazon because they wanted me to uproot my life after Covid and only ended up working there because they suggested I interview at AWS Professionsl Services. When GCP reached out to me multiple times about a similar position after leaving AWS and they said I would have to be in the office, I immediately ended the conversation.