9 ms·

How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

33 points by jvranish 14y ago

sp332 14y ago
I would like to see some more research done with this study: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1943412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1943412 basically a writing exercise that seems to remove most of the effects of stereotype threat.
droithomme 14y ago
This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the same stories too. Management is clueless in general and the profession, although respected by the public, is not generally respected by managers, executives or journalists. Most developers employed these days are not competent, regardless of gender, man and woman alike. The few that are competent cluster in competent firms where harassment and disrespect of employees, man and woman alike, is not tolerated. I'm a bit hyper-aware of this right now. I resigned my job last month after 6 months of abuse and harassment of engineers by non-engineering sales staff, which they viewed as hilarious pranks on worthless geeks who think they are so smart. Complaints to management were handled with suggestions to "man up", "learn to deal" and "stop being a pussy". I received over 100% salary increase in return for my willingness to quit and leave for a more sane firm. If you are good and you are being harassed, there is high demand for people who are good. The companies that permit harassment deserve to fail. Leave and don't look back. I offer this advise because I would hate for someone to think they can't find a place where there work is appreciated and they are valued because of their gender or race. There are places out there that are sane and professional, and they are generally more profitable so you make more as well. The only thing is that you need to be competent, that is the most important thing in this field because that's your ticket to success.
- space_unicorn 14y ago
  The article has nothing to do with harassment. As a female in the software industry, I have experienced harassment perhaps once, and it wasn't from my colleagues. Stereotype threat can occur even at 'sane firms'. It has to do with a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting.
  - waqf 14y ago
    The article appeared to be arguing: women underperform because they spend mental effort worrying about stereotype threat. So let's educate them about stereotype threat so they'll be more conscious of it. That sounds obviously counterproductive. Did I misunderstand?
    - silentbicycle 14y ago
      It's not counterproductive at all. Knowing how to deal with such biases (whether they're internal or external) makes them easier to overcome. For example, I'm self-taught, and while I have many years experience now and have done some significant projects, I still second guess myself quite a bit. (This is often called "Imposter Syndrome", see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome.) I found it tremendously helpful to discover that people I've looked up to for years have felt the same way, and had helpful suggestions for getting over the internalized anxiety. Everybody has nagging fears like this. Learning how to see them for what they are and to avoid making things worse for other people benefits everybody.
    - bct 14y ago
      You're mixing different layers of worrying. People underperform because they're worrying about problem X (confirming stereotypes). Let's refer to this as problem Y (stereotype threat). Education about problem X would be counterproductive; the article is suggesting education about problem Y.
    - demewmew 14y ago
      Being able to label that thing that's been interfering with my ability to get my work done is definitely a productive thing. But I also think there's another, far more useful purpose for educating people suffering from stereotype threat about stereotype threat: they can then put a label to what is keeping them from getting their work done when asking their peers, mentors, or managers for help. And then their peers, mentors, and managers can pay attention to situations that might provoke stereotype threat, try to lessen them, and otherwise show a bit of compassion for the person suffering from it. I say this personally: learning about stereotype threat cleared a huge communication roadblock I'd been having for years with managers and peers, and as soon as we were on the same page we were actually able to address some of the issues contributing to it.
debacle 14y ago
Why is it so important that we close the gender gap? Why is it so important that we believe that there is no difference in intelligence between men and women? Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the most intelligent woman. With that said, if you were to select the top 10 intelligent people in a room of 1000, a statistically significant amount of the time a majority will be men. If you are hiring for a job that requires the top 1% of intelligence, it is no surprise that you are going to have more men than women. Disclaimer: I hope some day that my daughter chooses a position in STEM, I realize that there are limitations and gaps in the IQ test, and that I might sound like a complete troll but I'm asking this question legitimately.
- jvanenk 14y ago
  That's a pretty strong claim to make without citing sources.
- jmduke 14y ago
  Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the most intelligent woman. No. This means that there are likely to be more men who scored highly on an IQ test than women who scored highly on an IQ test in a room.
  - pwny 14y ago
    "The only thing an IQ test is good at is measuring how close the test taker is to thinking the same way the test maker does."
  - debacle 14y ago
    I still would call that relevant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Job_performance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Job_perfo...
timee 14y ago
Likely the solution starts from parenting as author points out at the beginning of the post. Programs that start at age 13-14 have those early years to fight with in order to create an interest in software and instill self-confidence. It reminds me of an old article on gender imbalances from 1970, where it argues that while we say people have free will when they choose their careers, they combat 20 years of social molding that's difficult to break. [1] It'd be interesting to see the differences in upbringing that allowed for the Soviet Union back in the 60s to have a stat where "one-third of the engineers and 75 percent of the physicians are women." [1] Having been in the role of a guy in a computer science class at a large public university with roughly similar ratios, I wouldn't say that the motivation that people don't work with women is mostly due to the stereotype. It's likely due to the social ineptitude of engineering students. I definitely could relate to Max Levchin talk about how PayPal had difficulty in hiring women because they were nerds that didn't know how to relate to women. [2] Granted, as the author points out, the stereotype threat exists due to the outcome being perceived as social bias. Perhaps a solution as well is to help nerdy guys interact with girls in high school while the gender balance is fairly balanced. Perhaps projects with "random" (assigned) partners. Looking back at some of the things I did, I can't believe I was that socially awkward. [1] http://books.google.com/books?id=dwTvE44DOgQC&lpg=PA145&ots=sQrKj_1REh&&pg=PA183#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=dwTvE44DOgQC&lpg=PA145&... pg 188 [2] http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels-cs183-startup-class-5-notes-essay http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels...
- pwny 14y ago
  While I agree with your point, I believe "projects with 'random' (assigned) partners" to be a bad idea as far as encouraging social interactions. From my experience, no one enjoys being randomly assigned a partner (at least in high school) and starting your social contact with an unpleasant experience might ruin the chances of proper interaction. I think you make an excellent point that a lot is at play during high school though. It seems like most kids are fine and don't notice gender differences before their teens and that the social issues manifest and strengthen from the start to the end of puberty. Teenagers are mean and that period of life is when people judge the most based on looks and social aptitude. Solving this situation (which probably can't be solved readily) would most likely raise everyone's social interaction skills, smooth the social differences across the board and solve a lot of gender stereotypes (and even other problems).
jaems33 14y ago
I've said this before, but whenever I see these conversations on my Twitter and HN streams, huge segments of people are left out of the conversation. In the U.S. at least, tech dialogue is about 'men' and 'women', despite the fact that a significant number of certain men are rarely represented in the tech industry. Asian/Asian America men might overrepresent their demographic in the tech industry relative to their % in the country, but they are rarely on leadership boards (especially compared to women). But more importantly, having worked in Silicon Valley and New York, I rarely saw African-American and Hispanic devs/engineers. I just take exception to the idea that as a tech collective, we are supposed to 'fight' for one segment yet ignore other under-represented demographics.
- space_unicorn 14y ago
  Great point. I think the article speaks specifically about women because it was written by a woman, drawing from her personal experience. The principles stated in the article can probably be appreciated by and applied by any group that's feeling marginalized in the tech industry.
- bethly 14y ago
  Your attitude is derailing: this isn't a zero-sum game. I do talk about other under-represented segments, including the intersections. We aren't talking about them right now, and we don't need to stop talking about this in order to talk about that. In fact, much of the research done here has proven useful when considering racial stereotype threat, so talking about this furthers the research in the area of your concern. I recommend finding or writing some articles about the problem and posting them. I look forward to discussing them.
borplk 14y ago
What bugs me is the fact that no one is complaining about low presence of men in female-dominated industries. But god forbid if there are 10 male programmers and 9 female ones, DISASTER!
- pwny 14y ago
  While there's still a lot of stigma about men in some women related fields (ask male nurses), the issue in software is of larger scale than you imply. Try 1 female for 40 male programmers (That's about the ratio in both my internships, as well as my Software Engineering bachelor's degree group) and add to that the wannabe cool guys making sexist jokes in their public announcements and you might be closer to the current situation.
- donretag 14y ago
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baSyYyqV2X0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baSyYyqV2X0
- bct 14y ago
  > no one is complaining about low presence of men in female-dominated industries. Do you actually know that?
- robobenjie 14y ago
  They do complain about it, they just don't do it on Hacker News! My wife teaches preschool at Stanford's Laboratory School and they often talk about the teacher gender gap and what they can do about it, especially at young-children education conferences and the like.
- Paul_S 14y ago
  I think it's because men working in female dominated industries don't think of it as an injustice that requires an organised social movement to set right. They do what they want to do and just don't give a monkey's. Much like all the female programmers I know. It's just the blog-people I ever hear raising this issue.
peterwwillis 14y ago
First let me say that yet again, another blog post that contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, personal feelings and an individual's experience become the standard by which apparently all people experience working in STEM. We should not immediately concede that one person's experience defines an industry, or several. (The "stereotype threat" article is not a compelling enough argument to me that there is some gender stereotype conspiracy only found in STEM) Second: all these things the author experienced can be said about any minority group, and women is just one of them in STEM. Therefore, can we really say that there is a particular bias against women, when the bias actually exists among many minorities? Therefore, can't we assume that really it's the monopoly of the majority that we should combat, and not specifically the gender gap? Third, holy shit. If your self confidence is so low that any critique by a peer could shatter your world and cause you to abandon your career, you need therapy, or at least some kind of daily affirmation exercise. And being too afraid to ask to join a group is no excuse, for any person. You have to be able to work with other people. Often times they will not be the same gender or ethnicity as you. Simply saying it's difficult or scary is not some big revelation: many people find it intimidating to work with groups of people they know nothing about. Luckily, that's what college is good for: overcoming those fears and becoming comfortable with what will eventually be a requirement of your job. I agree with all her Eliminating the Threat points (even though that's kind of a harsh way of saying "Overcoming Obstacles")
- michaelt 14y ago
  First let me say that yet again, another blog post that contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, personal feelings and an individual's experience become the standard by which apparently all people experience working in STEM. "Stereotype Threat and Women’s Math Performance" by Spencer, Steele and Quinn [1] contains an interesting series of experiments. In the first experiment, test subjects are given two math exams, an easier one (from the GRE general exam) and a harder one (from the advanced GRE mathematics exam). All test subjects had 1 semester to 1 year of calculus with at least a B grade. They observed something that has been seen in the literature before - that both genders perform equally on the easier exam, but women underperform on the harder exam. In the second experiment, a different set of test subjects were given the harder exam. Half the subjects were told the test had been shown to produce gender differences, half that it had been shown not to produce gender differences. Characterizing the test as insensitive to gender differences was enough to totally eliminate women's underperformance. When the same test was characterized as sensitive to gender differences, women significantly underperformed in relation to equally qualified men. (results are fig. 2 on page 13 of the PDF) The third experiment repeats the second experiment under different conditions and gets a similar result. The "stereotype threat" article is not a compelling enough argument to me that there is some gender stereotype conspiracy only found in STEM No stereotype conspiracy is required - the threat is from the stereotype /held by the test subject/ that they will/are expected to underperform. [1] http://www.leedsmet.ac.uk/carnegie/learning_resources/LAW_PGCHE/SteeleandQuinnStereotypeThreat.pdf http://www.leedsmet.ac.uk/carnegie/learning_resources/LAW_PG...
andyl 14y ago
Why are women such an entitled demographic? Where is the love for programmers who are old? Or black? Or hispanic?
- jvanenk 14y ago
  A paraphrasing of "other people have it off worse, so stop complaining" isn't an argument.
ucee054 14y ago
Maybe we don't need more women in software. Maybe people shouldn't be persuaded to pick careers based on what "society wants" or what demographic ratios "should" be. Maybe we need more women, no, more people to pick the most advantageous careers for them personally.
- bct 14y ago
  The entire article is about personal experiences that have prevented people from doing the things that they're interested in. It doesn't say anything about what society wants, or ideal demographic ratios, or whatever. This isn't about philosophy or ideology, and it's interesting that so many people here are framing it that way.
  - ucee054 14y ago
    They frame it that way because the article does hint at it, especially in intro bullet 3 >>> The Gender Gap in STEM (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) fields and in Silicon Valley is a hot topic right now. We hear the same questions over and over, from many different directions: * What are the causes of this phenomenon? * What are the solutions? * Is it even something we ought to be concerned about?(I won’t dignify that last one with an answer.)
  - ucee054 14y ago
    By the way, I am a bit dubious about the "personal experience" involved here, because - the way I understand it - it's about a dearth of societal role models. I was never even aware of that as a factor. If I had been, I should have thought "Of course I can't engineer software because according to our society's stereotypes of middle eastern people, I should become a terrorist instead". I don't get why anyone should even care about stereotypes in the first place (let alone have to de-program themselves) because they should decide for themselves as individuals. Grumble grumble, Identity Politics, grumble grumble.
- rademi 14y ago
  Once upon a time, computer programming was a job for women, and not for men. So, based on that period of history, we can equivalently suggest: Maybe we don't need more men in software? (I do not believe either suggestion, not for a second. And I am disturbed that people are so ignorant of history. Both the women subject to stereotype threat and the men suggesting it's a non-issue are making this same kind of mistake. So, instead, I'd like to point out that women are awesomely smart. So deal with it. Please.)
geebee 14y ago
I'm more interested in the answer to question 3 "Is it even something we ought to be concerned about?(I won’t dignify that last one with an answer.)" I'm guessing that the reason the author won't dignify the last one with an answer is that she feels the question is rooted in deep sexism, or dismissal of a serious problem. And I'd agree, discrimination and/or stereotyping that leads to women giving up on CS is a serious problem. However, a slightly less extreme version of this question is important: "is it possible women are finding better professions than software development". As an exercise, consider the case of a young woman who has entered your office to talk about whether she should pursue a career as a programmer or apply to medical school with the ultimate goal of becoming a cardiologist. Make sure you address longevity of careers, pay, stability, social standing, attrition rates from graduate programs, and so forth. I do think it's very important to ask why women aren't going into CS. To the extent that stereotyping is responsible, yes, we should fight it. It clearly is a factor. But young women are starting to outperform young men academically. A recent RAND study concluded that young Americans are rationally avoiding PhDs in STEM fields because they are not competitive with the professions (where women are closing the gap rapidly, and in some cases creating a gap that favors women). In this case, avoidance of these fields may simply be one more way that women are making better decisions than men. Programming careers can be very rewarding, but they're hardly the only game in town, so it makes no sense to analyze it in isolation. If women aren't going into CS, what are they doing instead? Should we be telling young women who choose nursing, law, accounting, and medicine that they would be better off studying CS and becoming programmers? If anything, we might want to encourage young men to look at what young women are doing and learn something from them!
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
cantastoria 14y ago
When women look at tech companies and math departments, they see few women. This activates the stereotype that women aren’t good at math. The stereotype… Is there any evidence that this is what actually happens? Are all women carrying around these stereotypes with them? It just seems like a "just so" explanation. Most of the examples in this article aren't of stereotype threat, they're examples of the authors' insecurity and social anxiety about being in tech. I can understand how a women would feel uncomfortable working in large groups of, what are generally socially inept, geeks but that seems like a different problem. This was the money-quote for me: I remember one instance in particular when I was feeling particularly isolated at our company. “I feel like an outsider! Like the guys don’t want me here because I’m a woman!” I whined to one of my male colleagues. He looked at me and replied, “Well that’s dumb. Of course they want you here. You’re great to work with.” So essentially this woman has a self-confidence issue. I see little evidence from this article (and the NPR one) that these problems, to the extent that they exist, are just run-of-the-mill social anxiety and nothing more.
- bct 14y ago
  The article links the wikipedia page on stereotype threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat , which has plenty of references to studies demonstrating how this differs from other types of anxiety.
  - cantastoria 14y ago
    That it does, but my argument is that that what the author experienced isn't stereotype threat. The effects of stereotype threat are (supposedly) manifested in a decrease in performance. Feeling excluded or thinking (in this case unjustifiably) that you're not wanted isn't due to stereotype threat. If the author was failing her courses or was under performing at work that would (potentially) be a result of stereotype threat. I see no evidence either occurred, she was getting As in her classes and from what I gather was able to get and keep jobs in the software industry. She's just seems unable to cope with being the only woman in the room .
    - 14y ago
demewmew 14y ago
The lack of compassion here demonstrated by people who clearly have not even tried to empathize with the experiences of those with stereotype threat is disheartening. It's a phenomenon backed by increasing amounts of research and as someone who has dealt with it for years I am excited to see that it is finally getting so much attention. For those of you who are actually able to empathize a bit here, I found the APA paper "Stereotype Threat at Work" http://www.apa.org/education/ce/stereotype-threat.pdf http://www.apa.org/education/ce/stereotype-threat.pdf to be especially useful in communicating with managers, mentors and peers about what I was experiencing in the workplace. I don't think there are easy solutions to this issue, but bringing a little awareness and kindness to situations where a member of your team might have their stereotype threat activated can really go a long way. As hackers we typically care about efficiency, and stereotype threat is making some of our peers less efficient. If you think it's just a matter of "getting over it," your empathy skills could use a little work. A lot of this stuff is unconscious and impossible to unwire after a lifetime of being fed cultural stereotypes.

33 points by jvranish 14y ago

sp332 14y ago

I would like to see some more research done with this study: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1943412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1943412 basically a writing exercise that seems to remove most of the effects of stereotype threat.

droithomme 14y ago

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the same stories too. Management is clueless in general and the profession, although respected by the public, is not generally respected by managers, executives or journalists. Most developers employed these days are not competent, regardless of gender, man and woman alike. The few that are competent cluster in competent firms where harassment and disrespect of employees, man and woman alike, is not tolerated. I'm a bit hyper-aware of this right now. I resigned my job last month after 6 months of abuse and harassment of engineers by non-engineering sales staff, which they viewed as hilarious pranks on worthless geeks who think they are so smart. Complaints to management were handled with suggestions to "man up", "learn to deal" and "stop being a pussy". I received over 100% salary increase in return for my willingness to quit and leave for a more sane firm. If you are good and you are being harassed, there is high demand for people who are good. The companies that permit harassment deserve to fail. Leave and don't look back. I offer this advise because I would hate for someone to think they can't find a place where there work is appreciated and they are valued because of their gender or race. There are places out there that are sane and professional, and they are generally more profitable so you make more as well. The only thing is that you need to be competent, that is the most important thing in this field because that's your ticket to success.

space_unicorn 14y ago
The article has nothing to do with harassment. As a female in the software industry, I have experienced harassment perhaps once, and it wasn't from my colleagues. Stereotype threat can occur even at 'sane firms'. It has to do with a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting.
- waqf 14y ago
  The article appeared to be arguing: women underperform because they spend mental effort worrying about stereotype threat. So let's educate them about stereotype threat so they'll be more conscious of it. That sounds obviously counterproductive. Did I misunderstand?
  - silentbicycle 14y ago
    It's not counterproductive at all. Knowing how to deal with such biases (whether they're internal or external) makes them easier to overcome. For example, I'm self-taught, and while I have many years experience now and have done some significant projects, I still second guess myself quite a bit. (This is often called "Imposter Syndrome", see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome.) I found it tremendously helpful to discover that people I've looked up to for years have felt the same way, and had helpful suggestions for getting over the internalized anxiety. Everybody has nagging fears like this. Learning how to see them for what they are and to avoid making things worse for other people benefits everybody.
  - bct 14y ago
    You're mixing different layers of worrying. People underperform because they're worrying about problem X (confirming stereotypes). Let's refer to this as problem Y (stereotype threat). Education about problem X would be counterproductive; the article is suggesting education about problem Y.
  - demewmew 14y ago
    Being able to label that thing that's been interfering with my ability to get my work done is definitely a productive thing. But I also think there's another, far more useful purpose for educating people suffering from stereotype threat about stereotype threat: they can then put a label to what is keeping them from getting their work done when asking their peers, mentors, or managers for help. And then their peers, mentors, and managers can pay attention to situations that might provoke stereotype threat, try to lessen them, and otherwise show a bit of compassion for the person suffering from it. I say this personally: learning about stereotype threat cleared a huge communication roadblock I'd been having for years with managers and peers, and as soon as we were on the same page we were actually able to address some of the issues contributing to it.

debacle 14y ago

Why is it so important that we close the gender gap? Why is it so important that we believe that there is no difference in intelligence between men and women? Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the most intelligent woman. With that said, if you were to select the top 10 intelligent people in a room of 1000, a statistically significant amount of the time a majority will be men. If you are hiring for a job that requires the top 1% of intelligence, it is no surprise that you are going to have more men than women. Disclaimer: I hope some day that my daughter chooses a position in STEM, I realize that there are limitations and gaps in the IQ test, and that I might sound like a complete troll but I'm asking this question legitimately.

jvanenk 14y ago
That's a pretty strong claim to make without citing sources.
jmduke 14y ago
Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the most intelligent woman. No. This means that there are likely to be more men who scored highly on an IQ test than women who scored highly on an IQ test in a room.
- pwny 14y ago
  "The only thing an IQ test is good at is measuring how close the test taker is to thinking the same way the test maker does."
- debacle 14y ago
  I still would call that relevant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Job_performance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Job_perfo...

timee 14y ago

Likely the solution starts from parenting as author points out at the beginning of the post. Programs that start at age 13-14 have those early years to fight with in order to create an interest in software and instill self-confidence. It reminds me of an old article on gender imbalances from 1970, where it argues that while we say people have free will when they choose their careers, they combat 20 years of social molding that's difficult to break. [1] It'd be interesting to see the differences in upbringing that allowed for the Soviet Union back in the 60s to have a stat where "one-third of the engineers and 75 percent of the physicians are women." [1] Having been in the role of a guy in a computer science class at a large public university with roughly similar ratios, I wouldn't say that the motivation that people don't work with women is mostly due to the stereotype. It's likely due to the social ineptitude of engineering students. I definitely could relate to Max Levchin talk about how PayPal had difficulty in hiring women because they were nerds that didn't know how to relate to women. [2] Granted, as the author points out, the stereotype threat exists due to the outcome being perceived as social bias. Perhaps a solution as well is to help nerdy guys interact with girls in high school while the gender balance is fairly balanced. Perhaps projects with "random" (assigned) partners. Looking back at some of the things I did, I can't believe I was that socially awkward. [1] http://books.google.com/books?id=dwTvE44DOgQC&lpg=PA145&ots=sQrKj_1REh&&pg=PA183#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=dwTvE44DOgQC&lpg=PA145&... pg 188 [2] http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels-cs183-startup-class-5-notes-essay http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels...

pwny 14y ago
While I agree with your point, I believe "projects with 'random' (assigned) partners" to be a bad idea as far as encouraging social interactions. From my experience, no one enjoys being randomly assigned a partner (at least in high school) and starting your social contact with an unpleasant experience might ruin the chances of proper interaction. I think you make an excellent point that a lot is at play during high school though. It seems like most kids are fine and don't notice gender differences before their teens and that the social issues manifest and strengthen from the start to the end of puberty. Teenagers are mean and that period of life is when people judge the most based on looks and social aptitude. Solving this situation (which probably can't be solved readily) would most likely raise everyone's social interaction skills, smooth the social differences across the board and solve a lot of gender stereotypes (and even other problems).

jaems33 14y ago

I've said this before, but whenever I see these conversations on my Twitter and HN streams, huge segments of people are left out of the conversation. In the U.S. at least, tech dialogue is about 'men' and 'women', despite the fact that a significant number of certain men are rarely represented in the tech industry. Asian/Asian America men might overrepresent their demographic in the tech industry relative to their % in the country, but they are rarely on leadership boards (especially compared to women). But more importantly, having worked in Silicon Valley and New York, I rarely saw African-American and Hispanic devs/engineers. I just take exception to the idea that as a tech collective, we are supposed to 'fight' for one segment yet ignore other under-represented demographics.

space_unicorn 14y ago
Great point. I think the article speaks specifically about women because it was written by a woman, drawing from her personal experience. The principles stated in the article can probably be appreciated by and applied by any group that's feeling marginalized in the tech industry.
bethly 14y ago
Your attitude is derailing: this isn't a zero-sum game. I do talk about other under-represented segments, including the intersections. We aren't talking about them right now, and we don't need to stop talking about this in order to talk about that. In fact, much of the research done here has proven useful when considering racial stereotype threat, so talking about this furthers the research in the area of your concern. I recommend finding or writing some articles about the problem and posting them. I look forward to discussing them.

borplk 14y ago

What bugs me is the fact that no one is complaining about low presence of men in female-dominated industries. But god forbid if there are 10 male programmers and 9 female ones, DISASTER!

pwny 14y ago
While there's still a lot of stigma about men in some women related fields (ask male nurses), the issue in software is of larger scale than you imply. Try 1 female for 40 male programmers (That's about the ratio in both my internships, as well as my Software Engineering bachelor's degree group) and add to that the wannabe cool guys making sexist jokes in their public announcements and you might be closer to the current situation.
donretag 14y ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baSyYyqV2X0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baSyYyqV2X0
bct 14y ago
> no one is complaining about low presence of men in female-dominated industries. Do you actually know that?
robobenjie 14y ago
They do complain about it, they just don't do it on Hacker News! My wife teaches preschool at Stanford's Laboratory School and they often talk about the teacher gender gap and what they can do about it, especially at young-children education conferences and the like.
Paul_S 14y ago
I think it's because men working in female dominated industries don't think of it as an injustice that requires an organised social movement to set right. They do what they want to do and just don't give a monkey's. Much like all the female programmers I know. It's just the blog-people I ever hear raising this issue.

peterwwillis 14y ago

First let me say that yet again, another blog post that contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, personal feelings and an individual's experience become the standard by which apparently all people experience working in STEM. We should not immediately concede that one person's experience defines an industry, or several. (The "stereotype threat" article is not a compelling enough argument to me that there is some gender stereotype conspiracy only found in STEM) Second: all these things the author experienced can be said about any minority group, and women is just one of them in STEM. Therefore, can we really say that there is a particular bias against women, when the bias actually exists among many minorities? Therefore, can't we assume that really it's the monopoly of the majority that we should combat, and not specifically the gender gap? Third, holy shit. If your self confidence is so low that any critique by a peer could shatter your world and cause you to abandon your career, you need therapy, or at least some kind of daily affirmation exercise. And being too afraid to ask to join a group is no excuse, for any person. You have to be able to work with other people. Often times they will not be the same gender or ethnicity as you. Simply saying it's difficult or scary is not some big revelation: many people find it intimidating to work with groups of people they know nothing about. Luckily, that's what college is good for: overcoming those fears and becoming comfortable with what will eventually be a requirement of your job. I agree with all her Eliminating the Threat points (even though that's kind of a harsh way of saying "Overcoming Obstacles")

michaelt 14y ago
First let me say that yet again, another blog post that contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, personal feelings and an individual's experience become the standard by which apparently all people experience working in STEM. "Stereotype Threat and Women’s Math Performance" by Spencer, Steele and Quinn [1] contains an interesting series of experiments. In the first experiment, test subjects are given two math exams, an easier one (from the GRE general exam) and a harder one (from the advanced GRE mathematics exam). All test subjects had 1 semester to 1 year of calculus with at least a B grade. They observed something that has been seen in the literature before - that both genders perform equally on the easier exam, but women underperform on the harder exam. In the second experiment, a different set of test subjects were given the harder exam. Half the subjects were told the test had been shown to produce gender differences, half that it had been shown not to produce gender differences. Characterizing the test as insensitive to gender differences was enough to totally eliminate women's underperformance. When the same test was characterized as sensitive to gender differences, women significantly underperformed in relation to equally qualified men. (results are fig. 2 on page 13 of the PDF) The third experiment repeats the second experiment under different conditions and gets a similar result. The "stereotype threat" article is not a compelling enough argument to me that there is some gender stereotype conspiracy only found in STEM No stereotype conspiracy is required - the threat is from the stereotype /held by the test subject/ that they will/are expected to underperform. [1] http://www.leedsmet.ac.uk/carnegie/learning_resources/LAW_PGCHE/SteeleandQuinnStereotypeThreat.pdf http://www.leedsmet.ac.uk/carnegie/learning_resources/LAW_PG...

andyl 14y ago

Why are women such an entitled demographic? Where is the love for programmers who are old? Or black? Or hispanic?

jvanenk 14y ago
A paraphrasing of "other people have it off worse, so stop complaining" isn't an argument.

ucee054 14y ago

Maybe we don't need more women in software. Maybe people shouldn't be persuaded to pick careers based on what "society wants" or what demographic ratios "should" be. Maybe we need more women, no, more people to pick the most advantageous careers for them personally.

bct 14y ago
The entire article is about personal experiences that have prevented people from doing the things that they're interested in. It doesn't say anything about what society wants, or ideal demographic ratios, or whatever. This isn't about philosophy or ideology, and it's interesting that so many people here are framing it that way.
- ucee054 14y ago
  They frame it that way because the article does hint at it, especially in intro bullet 3 >>> The Gender Gap in STEM (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) fields and in Silicon Valley is a hot topic right now. We hear the same questions over and over, from many different directions: * What are the causes of this phenomenon? * What are the solutions? * Is it even something we ought to be concerned about?(I won’t dignify that last one with an answer.)
- ucee054 14y ago
  By the way, I am a bit dubious about the "personal experience" involved here, because - the way I understand it - it's about a dearth of societal role models. I was never even aware of that as a factor. If I had been, I should have thought "Of course I can't engineer software because according to our society's stereotypes of middle eastern people, I should become a terrorist instead". I don't get why anyone should even care about stereotypes in the first place (let alone have to de-program themselves) because they should decide for themselves as individuals. Grumble grumble, Identity Politics, grumble grumble.
rademi 14y ago
Once upon a time, computer programming was a job for women, and not for men. So, based on that period of history, we can equivalently suggest: Maybe we don't need more men in software? (I do not believe either suggestion, not for a second. And I am disturbed that people are so ignorant of history. Both the women subject to stereotype threat and the men suggesting it's a non-issue are making this same kind of mistake. So, instead, I'd like to point out that women are awesomely smart. So deal with it. Please.)

geebee 14y ago

I'm more interested in the answer to question 3 "Is it even something we ought to be concerned about?(I won’t dignify that last one with an answer.)" I'm guessing that the reason the author won't dignify the last one with an answer is that she feels the question is rooted in deep sexism, or dismissal of a serious problem. And I'd agree, discrimination and/or stereotyping that leads to women giving up on CS is a serious problem. However, a slightly less extreme version of this question is important: "is it possible women are finding better professions than software development". As an exercise, consider the case of a young woman who has entered your office to talk about whether she should pursue a career as a programmer or apply to medical school with the ultimate goal of becoming a cardiologist. Make sure you address longevity of careers, pay, stability, social standing, attrition rates from graduate programs, and so forth. I do think it's very important to ask why women aren't going into CS. To the extent that stereotyping is responsible, yes, we should fight it. It clearly is a factor. But young women are starting to outperform young men academically. A recent RAND study concluded that young Americans are rationally avoiding PhDs in STEM fields because they are not competitive with the professions (where women are closing the gap rapidly, and in some cases creating a gap that favors women). In this case, avoidance of these fields may simply be one more way that women are making better decisions than men. Programming careers can be very rewarding, but they're hardly the only game in town, so it makes no sense to analyze it in isolation. If women aren't going into CS, what are they doing instead? Should we be telling young women who choose nursing, law, accounting, and medicine that they would be better off studying CS and becoming programmers? If anything, we might want to encourage young men to look at what young women are doing and learn something from them!

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cantastoria 14y ago

When women look at tech companies and math departments, they see few women. This activates the stereotype that women aren’t good at math. The stereotype… Is there any evidence that this is what actually happens? Are all women carrying around these stereotypes with them? It just seems like a "just so" explanation. Most of the examples in this article aren't of stereotype threat, they're examples of the authors' insecurity and social anxiety about being in tech. I can understand how a women would feel uncomfortable working in large groups of, what are generally socially inept, geeks but that seems like a different problem. This was the money-quote for me: I remember one instance in particular when I was feeling particularly isolated at our company. “I feel like an outsider! Like the guys don’t want me here because I’m a woman!” I whined to one of my male colleagues. He looked at me and replied, “Well that’s dumb. Of course they want you here. You’re great to work with.” So essentially this woman has a self-confidence issue. I see little evidence from this article (and the NPR one) that these problems, to the extent that they exist, are just run-of-the-mill social anxiety and nothing more.

bct 14y ago
The article links the wikipedia page on stereotype threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat , which has plenty of references to studies demonstrating how this differs from other types of anxiety.
- cantastoria 14y ago
  That it does, but my argument is that that what the author experienced isn't stereotype threat. The effects of stereotype threat are (supposedly) manifested in a decrease in performance. Feeling excluded or thinking (in this case unjustifiably) that you're not wanted isn't due to stereotype threat. If the author was failing her courses or was under performing at work that would (potentially) be a result of stereotype threat. I see no evidence either occurred, she was getting As in her classes and from what I gather was able to get and keep jobs in the software industry. She's just seems unable to cope with being the only woman in the room .
  - 14y ago

demewmew 14y ago

The lack of compassion here demonstrated by people who clearly have not even tried to empathize with the experiences of those with stereotype threat is disheartening. It's a phenomenon backed by increasing amounts of research and as someone who has dealt with it for years I am excited to see that it is finally getting so much attention. For those of you who are actually able to empathize a bit here, I found the APA paper "Stereotype Threat at Work" http://www.apa.org/education/ce/stereotype-threat.pdf http://www.apa.org/education/ce/stereotype-threat.pdf to be especially useful in communicating with managers, mentors and peers about what I was experiencing in the workplace. I don't think there are easy solutions to this issue, but bringing a little awareness and kindness to situations where a member of your team might have their stereotype threat activated can really go a long way. As hackers we typically care about efficiency, and stereotype threat is making some of our peers less efficient. If you think it's just a matter of "getting over it," your empathy skills could use a little work. A lot of this stuff is unconscious and impossible to unwire after a lifetime of being fed cultural stereotypes.