4 ms·

It wouldn't be too difficult to make something even better than flash that emitted wasm files, that could run everywhere. It would give lots of folks a creative

It wouldn't be too difficult to make something even better than flash that emitted wasm files, that could run everywhere. It would give lots of folks a creative outlet that could be infinitely shared.

RodgerTheGreat 2y ago
If it's so easy, build it. A portable runtime isn't that hard. An effective and approachable authoring tool is the real challenge.
- jonplackett 2y ago
  Yes. The authoring tool was the brilliance of flash. It allowed non-coders to make interactive things really easily. Anyone whose made an Instagram filter or TikTik effect recently - it was like that, though even easier, but allowing you to do actual coding right down to very low level stuff should you desire. and you could get push your creation to any screen in the known universe with essentially zero testing.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Flash is the only thing that needlessly ate my battery worse than javascript though. Pretty sure half the internet surfers had plugins that made flash run only when user activated by the time it started to wane. Personally I only activated it for games i wanted to play, so most of that creativity was lost on me.
    - Marazan 2y ago
      That was just shonky code, nothing to do with flash itself.
      - nottorp 2y ago
        All of it ?!? I remember the time when pc fans hearable meant 95% that i opened a web page with a flash component by mistake...
        SilasX 2y ago
        Heh, I’ve used that test to guess if someone was running npm.
        Marazan 2y ago
        The flash runtime was pretty efficient but the authoring tools were so easy to use that anyone could produce "working" abominations filled with the most good awful code that got the result they wanted.
      - tjoff 2y ago
        I guess there is nothing wrong with javascript either? Humanity has proven it can't handle anything else than static pages. Then the developers themselves have to pay for their bloat rather than the users.
    - jonplackett 2y ago
      I’m taking about a bit earlier - ie before mobile phones. Obviously flash was not designed for small screens or small batteries. But it could have been adapted! If Adobe had been in any way competent or caring the flash runtime could have been converted to html5 But Adobe suck
      - nottorp 2y ago
        > before mobile phones. It was the same even before mobile phones. Laptops had batteries too. CPU fans sounded even worse than today when pegged at 100%.
  - epoxy_sauce 2y ago
    That program shaped my brain in ways I can't articulate. Took things I learned about computers and animation as an 11yo for granted as basic knowledge.
- sitkack 2y ago
  Having never used the authoring tool, can you point me towards something to model it after? I think a Bret Victor, "Inventing on Principal" style editor would be perfect, combined with some sort of scratch like Python IDE where each element is defined in terms of its reactive behaviors with other elements on a timeline. I didn't say easy, I said not too difficult. Order of magnitude difference. :) https://youtu.be/PUv66718DII?t=634 https://youtu.be/PUv66718DII?t=634 With some http://lighttable.com/ http://lighttable.com/
  - alanmoraes 2y ago
    You can watch some tutorials on Macromedia Flash on YouTube. Here's an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfHNexSSqfg&ab_channel=JGtutorials https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfHNexSSqfg&ab_channel=JGtut....
sonofhans 2y ago
Building the tech isn’t the problem; getting 90% of Internet users to adopt it is.
- astrobe_ 2y ago
  Building a good tool is the problem. For instance Git was born in a very niche community (kernel programming), yet it spread like wildfire. Despite the shortcomings of its CLI (according to some), and despite the fact there was other well'established tools.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    As someone that would rather use Mercurial and was perfectly fine with Subversion, that wild fire was "Linux kernel uses it, was made by Linus, and I want to be cool like Linus".
    - astrobe_ 2y ago
      Rather than a weird "cult of personality", the fact that Git demonstrated with Linux that it could handle a relatively large amount of source code and allow dozens (hundred?) of programmer to work on it "asynchronously" were key factors for adoption, I believe. If SVN was that good, as it was already well-established online (Github was not the first online VCS frontend, far from it), it should have remained the king of the hill. But it was decapitated instead.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        I am been using FOSS and commercial source management tooling since 1998, and the very fact that Linus only bothered with git due to BitKeeper changing their licence, proves that there was nothing special about it, other than personality and adoption wave.
      - troupo 2y ago
        SVN is still king of the hill in game development unless I'm mistaken. Because git is quite bad at handling large/binary files.
opticfluorine 2y ago
I wonder, how close does Godot get with its web export support? The "authoring tool" seems pretty good, and it exports to WASM.
- lithos 2y ago
  It doesn't in high-school visual basic seemed to have had a 50% pickup rate based on final project quality (closest I can think of to Godot that I actually saw) , Flash nearly everyone/group had a viable thing to show off for the final project.
- AlienRobot 2y ago
  Godot is too complicated compared to Flash. Have you ever used Flash? In Flash, you could literally take the brush from the toolbox, draw a circle, and that was your player character. That was it. No importing assets, no creating sprites, no nothing. You literally draw the circle right there with vector art tools, and it can be whatever you want. And those were THE best vector art tools, because when you drew a shape and the shape overlapped with another, it automatically erased the other shape like you would expect it to in a raster graphics editor. In pretty much every other software I tried, e.g. Inkscape, Affinity, Corel Draw, Illustrator, you just get two separate shape objects one on top of the other. They seem to be designed for drawing the outlines, not to actually paint with brushes. Flash understood what was intuitive for artists. Honestly, the older I get the stranger I feel about the fact that there was a brilliance in creating interface for people to be productive with back then that seems to be completely gone. I think this may be in part because desktop applications are unusual nowadays, but it's just really strange that the things I remember seeing have been done exactly once and never copied by anybody despite how well they worked.
graypegg 2y ago
IMO, it’s not the technology that matters but the authoring tools. Flash was easy to pirate, sometimes free with school, and easy to use. Thinking of applications as “animations with scripting” was a great idea because it let people only learn what they wanted to. If you just want to make animations, skip actionscript entirely. If you want some extra Easter eggs, just turn any symbol into a button and you can trigger any movie clip you want. Want to make this a whole game, heres the whole action script editor.
MintPaw 2y ago
I don't think so, Flash Player was extremely stable and portable, swfs ran accurately (although sometimes slowly) on all targets, Safari, IE7, Nintendo Wii, didn't matter. Maybe wasm+Canvas is getting close to being stable. But if you code up a webgl game and test it on desktop Chrome, odds are it'll just be a black screen on anything but the most popular Android devices, and you'll need to do tons of work and testing to get it to run on an iPhone. And WebGPU is probably at least 5 years away from being stable enough to be considered to "run everywhere". I strongly considered trying to do this a few times, but ended up writing an swf parser in C++ and used Skia to render. It's probably the best we can do right now, but we still regularly get players who complain about just seeing a black screen.

RodgerTheGreat 2y ago

If it's so easy, build it. A portable runtime isn't that hard. An effective and approachable authoring tool is the real challenge.

jonplackett 2y ago
Yes. The authoring tool was the brilliance of flash. It allowed non-coders to make interactive things really easily. Anyone whose made an Instagram filter or TikTik effect recently - it was like that, though even easier, but allowing you to do actual coding right down to very low level stuff should you desire. and you could get push your creation to any screen in the known universe with essentially zero testing.
- nottorp 2y ago
  Flash is the only thing that needlessly ate my battery worse than javascript though. Pretty sure half the internet surfers had plugins that made flash run only when user activated by the time it started to wane. Personally I only activated it for games i wanted to play, so most of that creativity was lost on me.
  - Marazan 2y ago
    That was just shonky code, nothing to do with flash itself.
    - nottorp 2y ago
      All of it ?!? I remember the time when pc fans hearable meant 95% that i opened a web page with a flash component by mistake...
      - SilasX 2y ago
        Heh, I’ve used that test to guess if someone was running npm.
      - Marazan 2y ago
        The flash runtime was pretty efficient but the authoring tools were so easy to use that anyone could produce "working" abominations filled with the most good awful code that got the result they wanted.
    - tjoff 2y ago
      I guess there is nothing wrong with javascript either? Humanity has proven it can't handle anything else than static pages. Then the developers themselves have to pay for their bloat rather than the users.
  - jonplackett 2y ago
    I’m taking about a bit earlier - ie before mobile phones. Obviously flash was not designed for small screens or small batteries. But it could have been adapted! If Adobe had been in any way competent or caring the flash runtime could have been converted to html5 But Adobe suck
    - nottorp 2y ago
      > before mobile phones. It was the same even before mobile phones. Laptops had batteries too. CPU fans sounded even worse than today when pegged at 100%.
- epoxy_sauce 2y ago
  That program shaped my brain in ways I can't articulate. Took things I learned about computers and animation as an 11yo for granted as basic knowledge.
sitkack 2y ago
Having never used the authoring tool, can you point me towards something to model it after? I think a Bret Victor, "Inventing on Principal" style editor would be perfect, combined with some sort of scratch like Python IDE where each element is defined in terms of its reactive behaviors with other elements on a timeline. I didn't say easy, I said not too difficult. Order of magnitude difference. :) https://youtu.be/PUv66718DII?t=634 https://youtu.be/PUv66718DII?t=634 With some http://lighttable.com/ http://lighttable.com/
- alanmoraes 2y ago
  You can watch some tutorials on Macromedia Flash on YouTube. Here's an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfHNexSSqfg&ab_channel=JGtutorials https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfHNexSSqfg&ab_channel=JGtut....

sonofhans 2y ago

Building the tech isn’t the problem; getting 90% of Internet users to adopt it is.

astrobe_ 2y ago
Building a good tool is the problem. For instance Git was born in a very niche community (kernel programming), yet it spread like wildfire. Despite the shortcomings of its CLI (according to some), and despite the fact there was other well'established tools.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  As someone that would rather use Mercurial and was perfectly fine with Subversion, that wild fire was "Linux kernel uses it, was made by Linus, and I want to be cool like Linus".
  - astrobe_ 2y ago
    Rather than a weird "cult of personality", the fact that Git demonstrated with Linux that it could handle a relatively large amount of source code and allow dozens (hundred?) of programmer to work on it "asynchronously" were key factors for adoption, I believe. If SVN was that good, as it was already well-established online (Github was not the first online VCS frontend, far from it), it should have remained the king of the hill. But it was decapitated instead.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      I am been using FOSS and commercial source management tooling since 1998, and the very fact that Linus only bothered with git due to BitKeeper changing their licence, proves that there was nothing special about it, other than personality and adoption wave.
    - troupo 2y ago
      SVN is still king of the hill in game development unless I'm mistaken. Because git is quite bad at handling large/binary files.

opticfluorine 2y ago

I wonder, how close does Godot get with its web export support? The "authoring tool" seems pretty good, and it exports to WASM.

lithos 2y ago
It doesn't in high-school visual basic seemed to have had a 50% pickup rate based on final project quality (closest I can think of to Godot that I actually saw) , Flash nearly everyone/group had a viable thing to show off for the final project.
AlienRobot 2y ago
Godot is too complicated compared to Flash. Have you ever used Flash? In Flash, you could literally take the brush from the toolbox, draw a circle, and that was your player character. That was it. No importing assets, no creating sprites, no nothing. You literally draw the circle right there with vector art tools, and it can be whatever you want. And those were THE best vector art tools, because when you drew a shape and the shape overlapped with another, it automatically erased the other shape like you would expect it to in a raster graphics editor. In pretty much every other software I tried, e.g. Inkscape, Affinity, Corel Draw, Illustrator, you just get two separate shape objects one on top of the other. They seem to be designed for drawing the outlines, not to actually paint with brushes. Flash understood what was intuitive for artists. Honestly, the older I get the stranger I feel about the fact that there was a brilliance in creating interface for people to be productive with back then that seems to be completely gone. I think this may be in part because desktop applications are unusual nowadays, but it's just really strange that the things I remember seeing have been done exactly once and never copied by anybody despite how well they worked.

graypegg 2y ago

IMO, it’s not the technology that matters but the authoring tools. Flash was easy to pirate, sometimes free with school, and easy to use. Thinking of applications as “animations with scripting” was a great idea because it let people only learn what they wanted to. If you just want to make animations, skip actionscript entirely. If you want some extra Easter eggs, just turn any symbol into a button and you can trigger any movie clip you want. Want to make this a whole game, heres the whole action script editor.

MintPaw 2y ago

I don't think so, Flash Player was extremely stable and portable, swfs ran accurately (although sometimes slowly) on all targets, Safari, IE7, Nintendo Wii, didn't matter. Maybe wasm+Canvas is getting close to being stable. But if you code up a webgl game and test it on desktop Chrome, odds are it'll just be a black screen on anything but the most popular Android devices, and you'll need to do tons of work and testing to get it to run on an iPhone. And WebGPU is probably at least 5 years away from being stable enough to be considered to "run everywhere". I strongly considered trying to do this a few times, but ended up writing an swf parser in C++ and used Skia to render. It's probably the best we can do right now, but we still regularly get players who complain about just seeing a black screen.