5 ms·

> No one is going to create bootleg copies of DRM-protected video one screenshotted still frame at a time — and even if they tried, they’d be capturing only the

> No one is going to create bootleg copies of DRM-protected video one screenshotted still frame at a time — and even if they tried, they’d be capturing only the images, not the sound. I'm not defending Apple here, but -- yes they definitely would? And then they'd get sound on a second pass at regular speed. If pirates couldn't access the underlying Netflix etc. bitstream like they've figured out, they'd absolutely be reading the desktop video buffer, which is all a screenshot is.

p0w3n3d 2y ago
That's not an argument. There is no law that prevents me from taking screenshots therefore I should be able to do it
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Did you see where I started with "I'm not defending Apple here"? I'm just pointing out that one of Gruber's points doesn't really hold water.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kuschku 2y ago
DRM isn't about release groups, and it never was. Actual pirates have a million different methods to capture video. DRM is a panic reaction to VHS, designed to making copying so inconvenient that casual users won't bother anymore.
- bob1029 2y ago
  I look at the raw amount of information as a form of deterrent in some cases. Getting a Blu-ray rip to a point where the average Pirate Bay user would be willing to wait for the download takes quite a bit of transcoding work. Not many are interested in maintaining 1:1 50 gigabyte source copies of every film out there.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    If your connection counts as "broadband" then you can download 50 gigabytes in an hour. Or in other words, you can buffer for less than a minute and start playing. And seeding long enough to not be rude is probably somewhere between a day and a month, so that's a pretty small storage burden.
    - superkuh 2y ago
      One qualifier is that even if a connection counts as "broadband" many national ISP like Comcast (Xfinity) put data transfer limits and 50 GB is 5% of my monthly limit. And if I go over I have to pay $10/50GB in chunks. Not that this matters in the 'downloading' versus 'download then deleting' (streaming) debate. There the amount of data is the same and not having to re-download obviously makes not-streaming the winner. Tangential: when I signed up in 2013 I actually had unlimited data transfer and paid $78/mo. Now in 2025 for the same plan and speeds I pay $113/mo and I have a data cap with fees. Comcast just decided on a whim they would not provide what I signed up for but since they're a megacorp they can. I have filed 2 FCC complaints about this but the FCC doesn't care. I'd switch but Comcast has been given a monopoly on local pole infrastructure and there are literally no other wired options (telco says 3 blocks from the switching center downtown is too far for dsl).
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      You can download sequentially too.
  - kuschku 2y ago
    Few people need Blu-ray quality, though. The quality offered by streaming services would usually fit on a DVD. Shorter TV show episodes would fit even on a dual layer CD. We can look at game recording tools to try to understand what a world without DRM might have looked like. Those are able to easily record and encode video at 1080p or 4K on consumer hardware. Uploading that to YouTube or sharing that with friends isn't an issue either.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Dylan16807 2y ago
HDMI capture is super easy. Pirates would not bother with a million screenshots. It's a tiny barrier that only really causes annoyance and makes the computer not work for the user.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Isn't the point that the video isn't sent to external non-DRM'ed HDMI, that it shows up as black the same way it does in a screenshot?
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    So yes that's the point of HDCP, but HDCP is broken. And lots of HDMI splitters remove it entirely.
  - kuschku 2y ago
    The truth is that HDCP too only annoys the consumer. Pirates can bypass it easily, and even event venues and universities keep cheap chinese HDMI splitters on hand to avoid issues during lectures or presentations. These $10 devices just rip the HDCP off the incoming video stream. This is most useful because Mac OS keeps applications around even without a window, and as long as e.g. Spotify is still there, it'll force HDCP on the HDMI out.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    Yes, and then someone in China successfully extracted a key and built a "HDCP stripper" that double negatives the italic. They appeared to have taken the keys from few of something expensive enough so that it politically can't be revoked. Capturing HDMI also used to be costly, China solved that too few years ago. Compressed 2K capture dongles are $9 apiece. I wouldn't describe those as "tiny" barriers, though, it just wasn't up to faceless Chinese silicon gurus circa 2010.
renata 2y ago
[flagged]
- dang 2y ago
  No personal attacks please, no matter how wrong someone is or you feel they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - renata 2y ago
    My apologies, I assumed that applied just to participants on HN discussions.
    - dang 2y ago
      That makes sense, it's just that we've noticed over the years how it still degrades thread quality. I think it's a medium-is-the-message thing to some extent. It's no big deal (and can be quite fun) to call $whoever a $whatever in small conversations, e.g. over a drink with friends, but on a large public internet form the dynamics change a lot.
      - renata 2y ago
        Sure, that makes sense. Sorry again and I'll skip the epithets in the future.
xp84 2y ago
> If pirates couldn't access the underlying Netflix etc. bitstream like they've figured out, they'd absolutely be reading the desktop video buffer, This cracks me up. This is like saying “If our enemy didn’t have missiles, as we are well aware they do, well, they definitely would be buying forks at Walmart and using them to poke us, or at least wave them menacingly. We must therefore place heavy restrictions on the sale of cutlery.”

p0w3n3d 2y ago

That's not an argument. There is no law that prevents me from taking screenshots therefore I should be able to do it

crazygringo 2y ago
Did you see where I started with "I'm not defending Apple here"? I'm just pointing out that one of Gruber's points doesn't really hold water.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kuschku 2y ago

DRM isn't about release groups, and it never was. Actual pirates have a million different methods to capture video. DRM is a panic reaction to VHS, designed to making copying so inconvenient that casual users won't bother anymore.

bob1029 2y ago
I look at the raw amount of information as a form of deterrent in some cases. Getting a Blu-ray rip to a point where the average Pirate Bay user would be willing to wait for the download takes quite a bit of transcoding work. Not many are interested in maintaining 1:1 50 gigabyte source copies of every film out there.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  If your connection counts as "broadband" then you can download 50 gigabytes in an hour. Or in other words, you can buffer for less than a minute and start playing. And seeding long enough to not be rude is probably somewhere between a day and a month, so that's a pretty small storage burden.
  - superkuh 2y ago
    One qualifier is that even if a connection counts as "broadband" many national ISP like Comcast (Xfinity) put data transfer limits and 50 GB is 5% of my monthly limit. And if I go over I have to pay $10/50GB in chunks. Not that this matters in the 'downloading' versus 'download then deleting' (streaming) debate. There the amount of data is the same and not having to re-download obviously makes not-streaming the winner. Tangential: when I signed up in 2013 I actually had unlimited data transfer and paid $78/mo. Now in 2025 for the same plan and speeds I pay $113/mo and I have a data cap with fees. Comcast just decided on a whim they would not provide what I signed up for but since they're a megacorp they can. I have filed 2 FCC complaints about this but the FCC doesn't care. I'd switch but Comcast has been given a monopoly on local pole infrastructure and there are literally no other wired options (telco says 3 blocks from the switching center downtown is too far for dsl).
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    You can download sequentially too.
- kuschku 2y ago
  Few people need Blu-ray quality, though. The quality offered by streaming services would usually fit on a DVD. Shorter TV show episodes would fit even on a dual layer CD. We can look at game recording tools to try to understand what a world without DRM might have looked like. Those are able to easily record and encode video at 1080p or 4K on consumer hardware. Uploading that to YouTube or sharing that with friends isn't an issue either.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Dylan16807 2y ago

HDMI capture is super easy. Pirates would not bother with a million screenshots. It's a tiny barrier that only really causes annoyance and makes the computer not work for the user.

crazygringo 2y ago
Isn't the point that the video isn't sent to external non-DRM'ed HDMI, that it shows up as black the same way it does in a screenshot?
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  So yes that's the point of HDCP, but HDCP is broken. And lots of HDMI splitters remove it entirely.
- kuschku 2y ago
  The truth is that HDCP too only annoys the consumer. Pirates can bypass it easily, and even event venues and universities keep cheap chinese HDMI splitters on hand to avoid issues during lectures or presentations. These $10 devices just rip the HDCP off the incoming video stream. This is most useful because Mac OS keeps applications around even without a window, and as long as e.g. Spotify is still there, it'll force HDCP on the HDMI out.
- numpad0 2y ago
  Yes, and then someone in China successfully extracted a key and built a "HDCP stripper" that double negatives the italic. They appeared to have taken the keys from few of something expensive enough so that it politically can't be revoked. Capturing HDMI also used to be costly, China solved that too few years ago. Compressed 2K capture dongles are $9 apiece. I wouldn't describe those as "tiny" barriers, though, it just wasn't up to faceless Chinese silicon gurus circa 2010.

renata 2y ago

[flagged]

dang 2y ago
No personal attacks please, no matter how wrong someone is or you feel they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- renata 2y ago
  My apologies, I assumed that applied just to participants on HN discussions.
  - dang 2y ago
    That makes sense, it's just that we've noticed over the years how it still degrades thread quality. I think it's a medium-is-the-message thing to some extent. It's no big deal (and can be quite fun) to call $whoever a $whatever in small conversations, e.g. over a drink with friends, but on a large public internet form the dynamics change a lot.
    - renata 2y ago
      Sure, that makes sense. Sorry again and I'll skip the epithets in the future.

xp84 2y ago

> If pirates couldn't access the underlying Netflix etc. bitstream like they've figured out, they'd absolutely be reading the desktop video buffer, This cracks me up. This is like saying “If our enemy didn’t have missiles, as we are well aware they do, well, they definitely would be buying forks at Walmart and using them to poke us, or at least wave them menacingly. We must therefore place heavy restrictions on the sale of cutlery.”