7 ms·

Xcode constantly phones home

185 points by MaysonL 2y ago

cratermoon 2y ago
Now do Visual Studio. Give Visual Studio Code a spin, too, if you have time.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Now do almost any modern video game, particularly those with Denuvo, if you have time.
  - nazgulsenpai 2y ago
    You mean the ones you launch from Steam?
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      Now consider how much phoning home Steam is doing…
    - Rohansi 2y ago
      Steam does its own thing but many games also collect their own analytics as you play.
  - 1over137 2y ago
    Or almost any modern software period. Everyone is in love with data gather and analytics.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      As long as it is only done with the user's consent, and the analytics can be turned off by the user, I don't see a problem. But if it's forced and/or done without consent, then it's a problem no matter if you're Apple, Microsoft, Steam, Epic, or any other company.
      - bt1a 2y ago
        Heh Can be turned off by the user usually means you must run your own recursive DNS resolver and firewall
- calgarymicro 2y ago
  Just run VSCodium[0]. Unfortunately there's no Xcode equivalent, of course. [0]https://vscodium.com/ https://vscodium.com/
  - koito17 2y ago
    I wouldn't call VSCodium an equivalent[0]. Please note that some Visual Studio Code extensions have licenses that restrict their use to the official Visual Studio Code builds and therefore do not work with VSCodium. ... In some cases, ... [workarounds] won't help because the extension is hard-coded to only work with the official Visual Studio Code product. Notably absent are all of the remote debugging extensions and Copilot. This would be a deal-breaker for many. [0] https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/docs/index.md https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/docs/index....
    - knallfrosch 2y ago
      You can compile from public source code, you can use any extension not using MS proprietary code (notably, other LLMs) AND you can use VSCode without telemetry. Credit where credit is due.. it's miles better than whatever Apple is doing.
    - realusername 2y ago
      I do use Copilot with VSCodium, I just installed the extension with a file
      - int_19h 2y ago
        Some extensions from Microsoft go so far as to check whether they are running on "genuine VSCode" and refuse to run if not.
- Rohansi 2y ago
  Everything collects analytics these days. However, VS Code let's you opt out of telemetry and I doubt it slows down builds like Xcode is doing.
  - cratermoon 2y ago
    It's my understanding that it's not possible to opt out of all VS Code telemetry. There are some kinds exposed in the settings page that can be disable. > I doubt it slows down builds But we don't really know, do we? Speculation isn't helpful.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
LeoPanthera 2y ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 Although the title was not changed, if you don't read the actual post, it's misleading. It makes connections to Apple when you launch it, and when you open project files. It also makes connections when you build, although that is to be expected, since signing is required for uploading builds to the store. It does not "constantly" phone home.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  None of these are "expected." It shouldn't have to connect to Apple when you launch it. The installed executable is all that is necessary to run the thing. It -can- launch without a network connection, therefore it should not initiate a connection without the user's consent. It's none of Apple's business when I launch Xcode. Same for opening a project. A compiler does not require online assets just to open a project file. It's none of Apple's business what project I'm opening and when I do it. It should not need to make a connection to Apple when it builds either, only when it is signing (assuming the signing cannot be done on device). As a user, I wouldn't expect any of this kind of telemetry, at least out of the box without opting in to it.
  - Terretta 2y ago
    > As a user, I wouldn't expect any of this kind of telemetry, at least out of the box without opting in to it. Hi, welcome to our timeline.
gunian 2y ago
[flagged]
Boldened15 2y ago
Headline buries the lede imo, should be "Xcode slows down builds by constantly phoning home". Given the walled garden nature of Apple and the app review process it's not really surprising that Xcode would be full of forced telemetry Also not the worst thing for Apple to measure average build times or whether developers are discovering some new feature they added, that can be actually helpful for improving the product.
- pjerem 2y ago
  > Also not the worst thing for Apple to measure average build times or whether developers are discovering some new feature they added, that can be actually helpful for improving the product. That have always been the point of telemetry. The issue is when it’s hidden and /or the collected data is misused.
  - 3eb7988a1663 2y ago
    Or even used at all. Feels like a lot of telemetry is getting collected simply because it can. "What if there is value we could unlock?!" Never mind that all decisions will be made on a manager's gut instinct.
    - threeseed 2y ago
      I have worked at plenty of places where analytics data is used to drive decision making. And surely we can all agree that a data driven approach is better than gut instinct.
      - bayindirh 2y ago
        > And surely we can all agree that a data driven approach is better than gut instinct. Then when people do the right thing, or have a good instinct about what to do next, we call them leaders (if they succeed), and praise them. Like Steve Jobs. If the same people fail, even with the data on their side, we kick them down, set on fire and parade them for their failure.
      - 2y ago
worik 2y ago
> Or perhaps Apple believes that developers are subhuman… From my three years of experience as a developer of iOS applications, this is the root cause. How the mighty have fallen
- neilv 2y ago
  Coincidentally, looking for a trustworthy open source Web browser solution (I'm on a rampage this weekend, after Mozilla misalignment last straw), I just had to allude to what seemed like Apple's attitudes towards developers ranging from indifference to hostility, throughout the iOS developer experience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43224305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43224305 (I'm sure there are some great people working on parts of Apple, and doing great work. But would they say that the holistic experience, as well as various business moves by Apple, are currently third-party developer-friendly? With the platform power Apple wields, and often heavy-handedly, I think that needs to be acknowledged.)
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  When you have millions of apps on the App Store it's easy to take developers for granted.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589
KennyBlanken 2y ago
[flagged]
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  Apple and its iOS ecosystem has problems, that cannot be denied, but it catches more flak than it should given that the primary competition (Google/Android) is in many ways just as bad or worse. Xcode gets ragged on all the time for example but Android Studio in most respects sits somewhere between not anything to write home about and bad. Just off the top of my head, dependency management and code stripping are massive pains in the rear (with both being substantially better in Xcode/Swift) and yet there’s never posts harping about those issues.
  - hu3 2y ago
    > Android Studio in most respects sits somewhere between not anything to write home about and bad. If only Xcode was nearly that good.
    - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
      Xcode is fine in my experience. At the very least it leaves me banging my head against the wall considerably less frequently than Android Studio does. It’s mainly just a matter of figuring out the antipatterns that make Xcode “angry”, where the bad parts of Android Studio are unavoidable.
exiguus 2y ago
[dead]
- timeon 2y ago
  > Basically everything is phoning home this days. Also vscode, Helix is not.
  - metaltyphoon 2y ago
    Neither is neovim :)
    - timeon 2y ago
      I wanted to mention it as well but was not 100% sure since I have not used it.
    - GCUMstlyHarmls 2y ago
      Nothing a plugin or two couldn't fix.
EatFlamingDeath 2y ago
I sincerely don't understand how devs that use macOS put up with this crap. I remember getting a Macbook M1 from the company I used to work for and the battery life was amazing, but as soon as I needed to install Xcode I just gave up. It's unbelievably bad, fuck that.
- xandrius 2y ago
  We put up with that because it could be better but it's not too bad. The IDE itself is pretty good and personally I prefer it over Android Studio.
  - zadokshi 2y ago
    People who complain about Xcode have never had to use android studio ;)
    - eric__cartman 2y ago
      Android studio became great after I upgraded from 16 to 48 gigabytes of ram. Thanks for that, Gradle!
    - OptionalDonuts 2y ago
      iOS dev here doing KMM. Android Studio (and IntelliJ) was a breath of fresh air after working so long with Xcode. I get anxiety when I have to go back to Xcode but that was partially because of the app I had to work with for a previous company.
      - bolognafairy 2y ago
        You didn’t “get anxiety”.
        OptionalDonuts 2y ago
        I'm not sure what the purpose of this reply is. Is it an English use of the word. Do I say "experience anxiety"? If it's my reaction to the use of Xcode then I've associated a stress response and get anxious which is partially why I left my job. The tool was also, in my experience, not a smooth or enjoyable developer experience.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 (Couple of days ago -58 comments)
SheinhardtWigCo 2y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589
dabinat 2y ago
The issue here isn’t the telemetry itself but the fact that it’s making builds slower. I think Xcode is pretty inefficient and Apple makes assumptions about computer and internet speed that mask these issues for them. I once tried opening a project on a network volume and it was unusable because for some reason Xcode is constantly using the disk, which you probably would never notice on a project stored locally on an SSD.
cjk 2y ago
This “gather provisioning inputs” step completely prevented me from building a project of mine yesterday. I let it sit there for over 20min with no movement. No amount of rebuild attempts worked, nor did restarting Xcode. Only a full reboot of my machine fixed it. I didn't see any network issues at the time this was occurring.

185 points by MaysonL 2y ago

cratermoon 2y ago

Now do Visual Studio. Give Visual Studio Code a spin, too, if you have time.

gjsman-1000 2y ago
Now do almost any modern video game, particularly those with Denuvo, if you have time.
- nazgulsenpai 2y ago
  You mean the ones you launch from Steam?
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    Now consider how much phoning home Steam is doing…
  - Rohansi 2y ago
    Steam does its own thing but many games also collect their own analytics as you play.
- 1over137 2y ago
  Or almost any modern software period. Everyone is in love with data gather and analytics.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    As long as it is only done with the user's consent, and the analytics can be turned off by the user, I don't see a problem. But if it's forced and/or done without consent, then it's a problem no matter if you're Apple, Microsoft, Steam, Epic, or any other company.
    - bt1a 2y ago
      Heh Can be turned off by the user usually means you must run your own recursive DNS resolver and firewall
calgarymicro 2y ago
Just run VSCodium[0]. Unfortunately there's no Xcode equivalent, of course. [0]https://vscodium.com/ https://vscodium.com/
- koito17 2y ago
  I wouldn't call VSCodium an equivalent[0]. Please note that some Visual Studio Code extensions have licenses that restrict their use to the official Visual Studio Code builds and therefore do not work with VSCodium. ... In some cases, ... [workarounds] won't help because the extension is hard-coded to only work with the official Visual Studio Code product. Notably absent are all of the remote debugging extensions and Copilot. This would be a deal-breaker for many. [0] https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/docs/index.md https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/docs/index....
  - knallfrosch 2y ago
    You can compile from public source code, you can use any extension not using MS proprietary code (notably, other LLMs) AND you can use VSCode without telemetry. Credit where credit is due.. it's miles better than whatever Apple is doing.
  - realusername 2y ago
    I do use Copilot with VSCodium, I just installed the extension with a file
    - int_19h 2y ago
      Some extensions from Microsoft go so far as to check whether they are running on "genuine VSCode" and refuse to run if not.
Rohansi 2y ago
Everything collects analytics these days. However, VS Code let's you opt out of telemetry and I doubt it slows down builds like Xcode is doing.
- cratermoon 2y ago
  It's my understanding that it's not possible to opt out of all VS Code telemetry. There are some kinds exposed in the settings page that can be disable. > I doubt it slows down builds But we don't really know, do we? Speculation isn't helpful.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

LeoPanthera 2y ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 Although the title was not changed, if you don't read the actual post, it's misleading. It makes connections to Apple when you launch it, and when you open project files. It also makes connections when you build, although that is to be expected, since signing is required for uploading builds to the store. It does not "constantly" phone home.

ryandrake 2y ago
None of these are "expected." It shouldn't have to connect to Apple when you launch it. The installed executable is all that is necessary to run the thing. It -can- launch without a network connection, therefore it should not initiate a connection without the user's consent. It's none of Apple's business when I launch Xcode. Same for opening a project. A compiler does not require online assets just to open a project file. It's none of Apple's business what project I'm opening and when I do it. It should not need to make a connection to Apple when it builds either, only when it is signing (assuming the signing cannot be done on device). As a user, I wouldn't expect any of this kind of telemetry, at least out of the box without opting in to it.
- Terretta 2y ago
  > As a user, I wouldn't expect any of this kind of telemetry, at least out of the box without opting in to it. Hi, welcome to our timeline.

gunian 2y ago

[flagged]

Boldened15 2y ago

Headline buries the lede imo, should be "Xcode slows down builds by constantly phoning home". Given the walled garden nature of Apple and the app review process it's not really surprising that Xcode would be full of forced telemetry Also not the worst thing for Apple to measure average build times or whether developers are discovering some new feature they added, that can be actually helpful for improving the product.

pjerem 2y ago
> Also not the worst thing for Apple to measure average build times or whether developers are discovering some new feature they added, that can be actually helpful for improving the product. That have always been the point of telemetry. The issue is when it’s hidden and /or the collected data is misused.
- 3eb7988a1663 2y ago
  Or even used at all. Feels like a lot of telemetry is getting collected simply because it can. "What if there is value we could unlock?!" Never mind that all decisions will be made on a manager's gut instinct.
  - threeseed 2y ago
    I have worked at plenty of places where analytics data is used to drive decision making. And surely we can all agree that a data driven approach is better than gut instinct.
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      > And surely we can all agree that a data driven approach is better than gut instinct. Then when people do the right thing, or have a good instinct about what to do next, we call them leaders (if they succeed), and praise them. Like Steve Jobs. If the same people fail, even with the data on their side, we kick them down, set on fire and parade them for their failure.
    - 2y ago

worik 2y ago

> Or perhaps Apple believes that developers are subhuman… From my three years of experience as a developer of iOS applications, this is the root cause. How the mighty have fallen

neilv 2y ago
Coincidentally, looking for a trustworthy open source Web browser solution (I'm on a rampage this weekend, after Mozilla misalignment last straw), I just had to allude to what seemed like Apple's attitudes towards developers ranging from indifference to hostility, throughout the iOS developer experience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43224305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43224305 (I'm sure there are some great people working on parts of Apple, and doing great work. But would they say that the holistic experience, as well as various business moves by Apple, are currently third-party developer-friendly? With the platform power Apple wields, and often heavy-handedly, I think that needs to be acknowledged.)
tonyedgecombe 2y ago
When you have millions of apps on the App Store it's easy to take developers for granted.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589

KennyBlanken 2y ago

[flagged]

cosmic_cheese 2y ago
Apple and its iOS ecosystem has problems, that cannot be denied, but it catches more flak than it should given that the primary competition (Google/Android) is in many ways just as bad or worse. Xcode gets ragged on all the time for example but Android Studio in most respects sits somewhere between not anything to write home about and bad. Just off the top of my head, dependency management and code stripping are massive pains in the rear (with both being substantially better in Xcode/Swift) and yet there’s never posts harping about those issues.
- hu3 2y ago
  > Android Studio in most respects sits somewhere between not anything to write home about and bad. If only Xcode was nearly that good.
  - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
    Xcode is fine in my experience. At the very least it leaves me banging my head against the wall considerably less frequently than Android Studio does. It’s mainly just a matter of figuring out the antipatterns that make Xcode “angry”, where the bad parts of Android Studio are unavoidable.

exiguus 2y ago

[dead]

timeon 2y ago
> Basically everything is phoning home this days. Also vscode, Helix is not.
- metaltyphoon 2y ago
  Neither is neovim :)
  - timeon 2y ago
    I wanted to mention it as well but was not 100% sure since I have not used it.
  - GCUMstlyHarmls 2y ago
    Nothing a plugin or two couldn't fix.

EatFlamingDeath 2y ago

I sincerely don't understand how devs that use macOS put up with this crap. I remember getting a Macbook M1 from the company I used to work for and the battery life was amazing, but as soon as I needed to install Xcode I just gave up. It's unbelievably bad, fuck that.

xandrius 2y ago
We put up with that because it could be better but it's not too bad. The IDE itself is pretty good and personally I prefer it over Android Studio.
- zadokshi 2y ago
  People who complain about Xcode have never had to use android studio ;)
  - eric__cartman 2y ago
    Android studio became great after I upgraded from 16 to 48 gigabytes of ram. Thanks for that, Gradle!
  - OptionalDonuts 2y ago
    iOS dev here doing KMM. Android Studio (and IntelliJ) was a breath of fresh air after working so long with Xcode. I get anxiety when I have to go back to Xcode but that was partially because of the app I had to work with for a previous company.
    - bolognafairy 2y ago
      You didn’t “get anxiety”.
      - OptionalDonuts 2y ago
        I'm not sure what the purpose of this reply is. Is it an English use of the word. Do I say "experience anxiety"? If it's my reaction to the use of Xcode then I've associated a stress response and get anxious which is partially why I left my job. The tool was also, in my experience, not a smooth or enjoyable developer experience.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 (Couple of days ago -58 comments)

SheinhardtWigCo 2y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168589

dabinat 2y ago

The issue here isn’t the telemetry itself but the fact that it’s making builds slower. I think Xcode is pretty inefficient and Apple makes assumptions about computer and internet speed that mask these issues for them. I once tried opening a project on a network volume and it was unusable because for some reason Xcode is constantly using the disk, which you probably would never notice on a project stored locally on an SSD.

cjk 2y ago

This “gather provisioning inputs” step completely prevented me from building a project of mine yesterday. I let it sit there for over 20min with no movement. No amount of rebuild attempts worked, nor did restarting Xcode. Only a full reboot of my machine fixed it. I didn't see any network issues at the time this was occurring.