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They claim that if the government could calculate taxes for you, then it would be too easy for the left to add new taxes that you wouldn't notice. The real kic

They claim that if the government could calculate taxes for you, then it would be too easy for the left to add new taxes that you wouldn't notice. The real kicker of course is that if you don't file your taxes, they actually do calculate your taxes for you, and send you a bill. It just includes the non-payment penalty and doesn't include donations.

superb_dev 2y ago
Is non-payment cheaper than donations?
- lesuorac 2y ago
  No. Taxes are in hindsight so you've already made whatever donations you did by the time you paid taxes. Donations either lower your tax bill or have no effect on it. So, by not filling taxes (_and getting caught_) you're just increasing your tax bill.
  - abeyer 2y ago
    Unless of course you're owed a refund, in which case they'll hold your money and pay you interest on it (at least for a few years.) ...but then tax you on the interest they paid you if you claim it.
    - froindt 2y ago
      My understanding was they don't pay interest on tax refunds, but you pay interest on unpaid tax liabilities. Do you have a source handy? My Google-fu is failing and only bringing up interest on unpaid taxes.
      - tarlinian 2y ago
        If the refund is paid in less than 45 days after the tax filing deadline or the day you file your taxes, they will pay you interest. See here: https://www.irs.gov/payments/interest#pay https://www.irs.gov/payments/interest#pay
      - Rebelgecko 2y ago
        Within the last few years I got a couple hundred bonus bucks back from the IRS as interest. Might've been a year where they were overhelmed and took significantly longer to cut the check that usual
WorkerBee28474 2y ago
> They claim that if the government could calculate taxes for you, then it would be too easy... to add new taxes that you wouldn't notice. As a non-American whose country break out the VAT into a separate line item, with the explicit intent to inform consumers how much tax they are paying, and who has shopped in countries where they roll it all into one, I can say that this 'claim' is absolutely what happens in practice.
- jedberg 2y ago
  Are you saying the only way that citizens are informed of the current tax rates is through price tags?
  - WorkerBee28474 2y ago
    Why on earth would I say that?
    - jedberg 2y ago
      That's what your comment implies. That taxes are being hidden because they aren't on the price tag.
      - Aloisius 2y ago
        Or not on the receipt.
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        They are "hidden" the same way manufacturing costs, labor, theft correction, psychological penny deduction, etc are hidden on your receipt, sure. You need to research to look all that up. Meanwhile, you can simply check "VAT rate 20xx" and find that. It saves time doing the math for your state sales tax and then doing mental math to figure out what you leave the store with.
  - cameronh90 2y ago
    In the UK, VAT is incorporated into the price. This does lead to some sort of an awareness issue. Pretty much everyone does, of course, know that the VAT rate is 20%, but still you always get people complaining that we’re being ripped off when something which costs $1000 ends up being sold here at £950.
peter422 2y ago
I don’t remember the exact amount but after I filed my taxes last year I got a refund from the IRS for under 1 dollar because I had mistakenly put a small typo while entering a 1099 and they automatically corrected my return and sent me a few cents of a refund. The fact that they are capable of doing that implies how much time we all have to waste doing our taxes.
thelastgallon 2y ago
Then the right thing to do would be to remove tax deduction at source from payroll. People will notice how much they are paying in taxes when they have to write a check every month to the government and start asking questions. For most people, taxes are more than the next 3 biggest expenses.
- nxobject 2y ago
  Are you sure the question wouldn’t be “why don’t they just take it out at payroll like they did before $RIGHT_WINGER did this, that would be more efficient and save everyone time like every other country in the world?”
  - xethos 2y ago
    If you want efficiency, then sure, remove them automatically and save everyone the time. But Americans, by and large, aren't into efficiency. If you want people to visually see where their money goes and when taxes are increased, you do a better job breaking down where it goes when described on a paycheque. Think "$0.82 for military spending; $0.05 for road maintenance" instead of "Federal tax: $317.02" If you want the people to misunderstand and hate the government, then you make the people do math every month with numbers that change throughout the year and have financial penalties for getting wrong.
- jedberg 2y ago
  Most people would just set up auto pay and then it would be functionally the same. Out of sight out of mind. I'm pretty sure separating it wouldn't do anything except cause a lot of enforcement issues when people failed to pay.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  A shame because it's on your paystub. You can see exactly how many taxes are deducted on every W-2 paycheck.
nkrisc 2y ago
You’re saying I can pay the IRS to figure out my taxes for me?
- jedberg 2y ago
  Technically yes, but you'll pay them a lot more than you'd pay H&R Block or any of the other tax prep people.
twoodfin 2y ago
There’s no way the IRS can track and calculate many large, important features of the tax code. EITC eligibility, for example, depends on the aggregate employment and spending patterns of your household. The IRS does not (and shouldn’t) track when you moved in with your boyfriend. The home mortgage interest deduction depends on your primary residence; if you have more than one, that means tracking how much time you spend at each.
- jedberg 2y ago
  This is true. They would have to send you a simple form to ask you for those things. Or change the way those things are reported. But fun fact, ~80% of tax returns could be calculated by the IRS with no input from the taxpayer, based on the actual returns that they get now. In other words, 80% of returns don't have any information they don't already know. That's mainly because most taxpayers have a single W2 income and just take the standard deduction. Although you're wrong about the mortgage interest deduction, that is reported by the bank per address, and you have the list your primary address with your state tax authority, which the IRS gets a copy of.
  - twoodfin 2y ago
    “A simple form to ask you for those things” is what we have today. Or is the IRS failing to simplify these forms to the utmost degree? I think you’re seriously underestimating the amount of data the IRS would have to proactively collect. “We get your tax obligation right 80% of the time!” isn’t an acceptable SLA. Kids are born, houses (and electric cars!) are bought and sold, community college classes are enrolled in, … Re: Primary residence: Uhh, OK, so I report to my state tax authority who reports to the Feds. I thought the point of this thread was that somebody else would do all this for me, but for the evils of Grover Norquist and Intuit?
    - jedberg 2y ago
      That is not what we have today. For starters, that form starts with "tell us what is on your W2". They already know that. They don't need it. There is a reason TurboTax is popular -- because it's a better interface for asking those questions. But look at other countries. They don't ask you to fill out a form. They send you a bill and ask if they missed anything. For 80% of taxpayers, they would send the bill and the taxpayer would say, "yep, that's right". And your taxes would be done. The rest could keep doing it the old way. > Kids are born, houses (and electric cars!) are bought and sold, community college classes are enrolled in All things they already know about! Because when you claim those things on your taxes, they cross check that to try and catch you in a lie.

superb_dev 2y ago

Is non-payment cheaper than donations?

lesuorac 2y ago
No. Taxes are in hindsight so you've already made whatever donations you did by the time you paid taxes. Donations either lower your tax bill or have no effect on it. So, by not filling taxes (_and getting caught_) you're just increasing your tax bill.
- abeyer 2y ago
  Unless of course you're owed a refund, in which case they'll hold your money and pay you interest on it (at least for a few years.) ...but then tax you on the interest they paid you if you claim it.
  - froindt 2y ago
    My understanding was they don't pay interest on tax refunds, but you pay interest on unpaid tax liabilities. Do you have a source handy? My Google-fu is failing and only bringing up interest on unpaid taxes.
    - tarlinian 2y ago
      If the refund is paid in less than 45 days after the tax filing deadline or the day you file your taxes, they will pay you interest. See here: https://www.irs.gov/payments/interest#pay https://www.irs.gov/payments/interest#pay
    - Rebelgecko 2y ago
      Within the last few years I got a couple hundred bonus bucks back from the IRS as interest. Might've been a year where they were overhelmed and took significantly longer to cut the check that usual

WorkerBee28474 2y ago

> They claim that if the government could calculate taxes for you, then it would be too easy... to add new taxes that you wouldn't notice. As a non-American whose country break out the VAT into a separate line item, with the explicit intent to inform consumers how much tax they are paying, and who has shopped in countries where they roll it all into one, I can say that this 'claim' is absolutely what happens in practice.

jedberg 2y ago
Are you saying the only way that citizens are informed of the current tax rates is through price tags?
- WorkerBee28474 2y ago
  Why on earth would I say that?
  - jedberg 2y ago
    That's what your comment implies. That taxes are being hidden because they aren't on the price tag.
    - Aloisius 2y ago
      Or not on the receipt.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      They are "hidden" the same way manufacturing costs, labor, theft correction, psychological penny deduction, etc are hidden on your receipt, sure. You need to research to look all that up. Meanwhile, you can simply check "VAT rate 20xx" and find that. It saves time doing the math for your state sales tax and then doing mental math to figure out what you leave the store with.
- cameronh90 2y ago
  In the UK, VAT is incorporated into the price. This does lead to some sort of an awareness issue. Pretty much everyone does, of course, know that the VAT rate is 20%, but still you always get people complaining that we’re being ripped off when something which costs $1000 ends up being sold here at £950.

peter422 2y ago

I don’t remember the exact amount but after I filed my taxes last year I got a refund from the IRS for under 1 dollar because I had mistakenly put a small typo while entering a 1099 and they automatically corrected my return and sent me a few cents of a refund. The fact that they are capable of doing that implies how much time we all have to waste doing our taxes.

thelastgallon 2y ago

Then the right thing to do would be to remove tax deduction at source from payroll. People will notice how much they are paying in taxes when they have to write a check every month to the government and start asking questions. For most people, taxes are more than the next 3 biggest expenses.

nxobject 2y ago
Are you sure the question wouldn’t be “why don’t they just take it out at payroll like they did before $RIGHT_WINGER did this, that would be more efficient and save everyone time like every other country in the world?”
- xethos 2y ago
  If you want efficiency, then sure, remove them automatically and save everyone the time. But Americans, by and large, aren't into efficiency. If you want people to visually see where their money goes and when taxes are increased, you do a better job breaking down where it goes when described on a paycheque. Think "$0.82 for military spending; $0.05 for road maintenance" instead of "Federal tax: $317.02" If you want the people to misunderstand and hate the government, then you make the people do math every month with numbers that change throughout the year and have financial penalties for getting wrong.
jedberg 2y ago
Most people would just set up auto pay and then it would be functionally the same. Out of sight out of mind. I'm pretty sure separating it wouldn't do anything except cause a lot of enforcement issues when people failed to pay.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
A shame because it's on your paystub. You can see exactly how many taxes are deducted on every W-2 paycheck.

nkrisc 2y ago

You’re saying I can pay the IRS to figure out my taxes for me?

jedberg 2y ago
Technically yes, but you'll pay them a lot more than you'd pay H&R Block or any of the other tax prep people.

twoodfin 2y ago

There’s no way the IRS can track and calculate many large, important features of the tax code. EITC eligibility, for example, depends on the aggregate employment and spending patterns of your household. The IRS does not (and shouldn’t) track when you moved in with your boyfriend. The home mortgage interest deduction depends on your primary residence; if you have more than one, that means tracking how much time you spend at each.

jedberg 2y ago
This is true. They would have to send you a simple form to ask you for those things. Or change the way those things are reported. But fun fact, ~80% of tax returns could be calculated by the IRS with no input from the taxpayer, based on the actual returns that they get now. In other words, 80% of returns don't have any information they don't already know. That's mainly because most taxpayers have a single W2 income and just take the standard deduction. Although you're wrong about the mortgage interest deduction, that is reported by the bank per address, and you have the list your primary address with your state tax authority, which the IRS gets a copy of.
- twoodfin 2y ago
  “A simple form to ask you for those things” is what we have today. Or is the IRS failing to simplify these forms to the utmost degree? I think you’re seriously underestimating the amount of data the IRS would have to proactively collect. “We get your tax obligation right 80% of the time!” isn’t an acceptable SLA. Kids are born, houses (and electric cars!) are bought and sold, community college classes are enrolled in, … Re: Primary residence: Uhh, OK, so I report to my state tax authority who reports to the Feds. I thought the point of this thread was that somebody else would do all this for me, but for the evils of Grover Norquist and Intuit?
  - jedberg 2y ago
    That is not what we have today. For starters, that form starts with "tell us what is on your W2". They already know that. They don't need it. There is a reason TurboTax is popular -- because it's a better interface for asking those questions. But look at other countries. They don't ask you to fill out a form. They send you a bill and ask if they missed anything. For 80% of taxpayers, they would send the bill and the taxpayer would say, "yep, that's right". And your taxes would be done. The rest could keep doing it the old way. > Kids are born, houses (and electric cars!) are bought and sold, community college classes are enrolled in All things they already know about! Because when you claim those things on your taxes, they cross check that to try and catch you in a lie.