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No, I'm not suggesting that at all, but oligarchy and lack of democracy mostly hurts the country in internal politics, not external. The war would just not have

No, I'm not suggesting that at all, but oligarchy and lack of democracy mostly hurts the country in internal politics, not external. The war would just not have happened. As for how bad the oligarchy in Russia is now / would be (if it joined NATO) - it's no one's business but the Russians'.

gambiting 2y ago
The thing is - you might be right. Or you might be completely wrong - these discussions happened almost 30 years ago - even if Russia was allowed into NATO when it was originally planned, its descent into autocracy might have caused it to be kicked out, or it might have left on its own accord. Or it might have decided to attack Ukraine anyway, even while itself still in NATO. I wouldn't be so hasty to declare that if only Russia was let into NATO 30 years ago this war wouldn't have happened - we don't know.
- mathfailure 2y ago
  I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me. An attack has to have very strong reasons, as any attack is very costly, no oligarch would spend money for no reason. So they would seek some gain then, right? What could an oligarch possibly gain from starting a war with an allied neighboring country? And why doesn't U.S. attack other NATO members now? Surely it has (and had) as much oligarchy (if not more) as Russia has. (I hope you won't argue it doesn't? Since even something as ridiculous as the fact of having lobbying being absolutely legal - just can't coexist with the lack of oligarchs quite by nature/definition).
  - gambiting 2y ago
    "An attack has to have very strong reasons, as any attack is very costly, no oligarch would spend money for no reason." So why did this current attack start? It's been 3 years and there's a dozen theories as to why exactly, there is no "strong reason" anywhere to be seen. "What could an oligarch possibly gain from starting a war with an allied neighboring country?" Again, why is Russia in Ukraine then? They went from being brethren to portraying Ukrainians as fascist scum that need to be exterminated. Why is that? "And why doesn't U.S. attack other NATO members now?" Because it has more to gain by not doing so. Again - I really can't see how you can confidently say that if only Russia was let into NATO 30 years ago this current situation wouldn't have happened.
    - mathfailure 2y ago
      > So why did this current attack start? It's been 3 years and there's a dozen theories as to why exactly, there is no "strong reason" anywhere to be seen. > Again, why is Russia in Ukraine then? The strong reason for this attack was Russia's security concerns got ignored and stepped on by a military alliance (NATO). The military alliance that claims Russia to be their most probable enemy and thus a military alliance AGAINST Russia. The military alliance first broke some spoken agreement with Russian of non-expansion of said military alliance. Then did that again and again to the point where NATO wanted to advance in its expansion so much far as to the neighboring country to Russia. This is simply not acceptable for Russia, so it had to prevent that expansion, which it did. It could only be done by force, if the other side refused to drop possibilities of joining NATO. They didn't drop them - they got invaded for demilitarization. They resist - they die. The ones who don't resist (civilians) - aren't targeted at all (however, in a war there are always casualties among civilians). > They went from being brethren to portraying Ukrainians as fascist scum that need to be exterminated. Why is that? Because that's what Ukrainian officials policy was towards Russian natives living on their land and daring to speak their native Russian language. > I really can't see how you can confidently say that if only Russia was let into NATO 30 years ago this current situation wouldn't have happened. How is that not clear? If Russia would be part of NATO - it would have 0 security concerns of NATO expanding up to its borders. If there would be no security concerns - it wouldn't start the special operation, there simply would be no reason to, as Ukraine would probably in that case be a part of NATO as well (as well as Belarus and probably Kazakhstan and some other ex-USSR *stans)! Just that simple.
      - error_logic 2y ago
        That's a convenient narrative but it overlooks the desire to prevent normalization of hostile takeovers. Russia tried to pretend that its satellite states and NATO were similar arrangements (with the latter thus being under US control), because that would make it seem like they were on even ground. To the extent it ends up being true, it will be due to Russia's influence (conveniently allied with others' authoritarian tendencies).
      - snozolli 2y ago
  - Juliate 2y ago
    > And why doesn't U.S. attack other NATO members now? They are. Commercially first. Through technology second (the dependance of the world upon US software and hardware technology is the perfect kill switch - and the scale and pace at which we are going to need to get out of it is immense now that it is intimately tied to our professional and personal lives... but we have no choice). And they might go further if those firsts are not enough.
    - imcritic3 2y ago
      Sounds like fair play to me. Where's the border between oligarchs attacking other countries and economical concurrence between different countries?
      - Juliate 2y ago
        It is not a matter of concurrence. The European market is going to be a closed, dead market to US technology. We in Europe would never have invested so massively to rely on USSR or post-2008 Russia software/hardware tech, for obvious reasons But we did on USA tech, for obvious reasons too (common history and values, democracies, multiple war allies, cooperation, and... US used to be the beacon of progress and freedom), that have all been brutally thrown out. So why would we now?

gambiting 2y ago

The thing is - you might be right. Or you might be completely wrong - these discussions happened almost 30 years ago - even if Russia was allowed into NATO when it was originally planned, its descent into autocracy might have caused it to be kicked out, or it might have left on its own accord. Or it might have decided to attack Ukraine anyway, even while itself still in NATO. I wouldn't be so hasty to declare that if only Russia was let into NATO 30 years ago this war wouldn't have happened - we don't know.

mathfailure 2y ago
I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me. An attack has to have very strong reasons, as any attack is very costly, no oligarch would spend money for no reason. So they would seek some gain then, right? What could an oligarch possibly gain from starting a war with an allied neighboring country? And why doesn't U.S. attack other NATO members now? Surely it has (and had) as much oligarchy (if not more) as Russia has. (I hope you won't argue it doesn't? Since even something as ridiculous as the fact of having lobbying being absolutely legal - just can't coexist with the lack of oligarchs quite by nature/definition).
- gambiting 2y ago
  "An attack has to have very strong reasons, as any attack is very costly, no oligarch would spend money for no reason." So why did this current attack start? It's been 3 years and there's a dozen theories as to why exactly, there is no "strong reason" anywhere to be seen. "What could an oligarch possibly gain from starting a war with an allied neighboring country?" Again, why is Russia in Ukraine then? They went from being brethren to portraying Ukrainians as fascist scum that need to be exterminated. Why is that? "And why doesn't U.S. attack other NATO members now?" Because it has more to gain by not doing so. Again - I really can't see how you can confidently say that if only Russia was let into NATO 30 years ago this current situation wouldn't have happened.
  - mathfailure 2y ago
    > So why did this current attack start? It's been 3 years and there's a dozen theories as to why exactly, there is no "strong reason" anywhere to be seen. > Again, why is Russia in Ukraine then? The strong reason for this attack was Russia's security concerns got ignored and stepped on by a military alliance (NATO). The military alliance that claims Russia to be their most probable enemy and thus a military alliance AGAINST Russia. The military alliance first broke some spoken agreement with Russian of non-expansion of said military alliance. Then did that again and again to the point where NATO wanted to advance in its expansion so much far as to the neighboring country to Russia. This is simply not acceptable for Russia, so it had to prevent that expansion, which it did. It could only be done by force, if the other side refused to drop possibilities of joining NATO. They didn't drop them - they got invaded for demilitarization. They resist - they die. The ones who don't resist (civilians) - aren't targeted at all (however, in a war there are always casualties among civilians). > They went from being brethren to portraying Ukrainians as fascist scum that need to be exterminated. Why is that? Because that's what Ukrainian officials policy was towards Russian natives living on their land and daring to speak their native Russian language. > I really can't see how you can confidently say that if only Russia was let into NATO 30 years ago this current situation wouldn't have happened. How is that not clear? If Russia would be part of NATO - it would have 0 security concerns of NATO expanding up to its borders. If there would be no security concerns - it wouldn't start the special operation, there simply would be no reason to, as Ukraine would probably in that case be a part of NATO as well (as well as Belarus and probably Kazakhstan and some other ex-USSR *stans)! Just that simple.
    - error_logic 2y ago
      That's a convenient narrative but it overlooks the desire to prevent normalization of hostile takeovers. Russia tried to pretend that its satellite states and NATO were similar arrangements (with the latter thus being under US control), because that would make it seem like they were on even ground. To the extent it ends up being true, it will be due to Russia's influence (conveniently allied with others' authoritarian tendencies).
    - snozolli 2y ago
- Juliate 2y ago
  > And why doesn't U.S. attack other NATO members now? They are. Commercially first. Through technology second (the dependance of the world upon US software and hardware technology is the perfect kill switch - and the scale and pace at which we are going to need to get out of it is immense now that it is intimately tied to our professional and personal lives... but we have no choice). And they might go further if those firsts are not enough.
  - imcritic3 2y ago
    Sounds like fair play to me. Where's the border between oligarchs attacking other countries and economical concurrence between different countries?
    - Juliate 2y ago
      It is not a matter of concurrence. The European market is going to be a closed, dead market to US technology. We in Europe would never have invested so massively to rely on USSR or post-2008 Russia software/hardware tech, for obvious reasons But we did on USA tech, for obvious reasons too (common history and values, democracies, multiple war allies, cooperation, and... US used to be the beacon of progress and freedom), that have all been brutally thrown out. So why would we now?