4 ms·

> I think Microsoft killed it the moment when they made everything move through central servers before everyone had good network connection, everywhere. It was

by Lammy 2y ago

> I think Microsoft killed it the moment when they made everything move through central servers before everyone had good network connection, everywhere. It was P2P before. Story in two headlines: - “NSA offering 'billions' for Skype eavesdrop solution” https://www.theregister.com/2009/02/12/nsa_offers_billions_for_skype_pwnage/ https://www.theregister.com/2009/02/12/nsa_offers_billions_f... (2009) - “Microsoft Buys Skype for $8.5 Billion. Why, Exactly?” https://www.wired.com/2011/05/microsoft-buys-skype-2/ https://www.wired.com/2011/05/microsoft-buys-skype-2/ (2011)

qingcharles 2y ago
Well, the better ask is why eBay bought it...
- Scoundreller 2y ago
  And even when eBay thought they bought it, apparently they didn’t buy all of it: https://www.theregister.com/2009/11/06/ebay_skype/ https://www.theregister.com/2009/11/06/ebay_skype/ https://www.hugheshubbard.com/news/the-best-laid-m-a-plans-how-a-dispute-over-ownership-of-critical-ip-may-threaten-ebays-sale-of-skype https://www.hugheshubbard.com/news/the-best-laid-m-a-plans-h...
  - hedgehog 2y ago
    Oh it gets better. Apparently some of the stuff they didn't get dated back to Kazaa. Some of the Skype founders were under indictment and traveling incognito while they raised money for the new company.
    - pests 2y ago
      I had interacted with Pritt Kasesalu (PrittK) when I was very young. In the late 90/early 00s I played an MMO developed by Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) named Subspace, released in the mid 90s. It was a top down astroids-like space game with maps of up to 100 or more players, even back then. The game shut down officially but the server leaked and became community ran. The original client was not very secure so hacking and cheating became common. Out of nowhere comes Continuum, a ground up reimplementation of the Subspace client by none other than PrittK, completely eliminating any cheats but changing nothing of gameplay or UI. He went on to co-own the largest server, Trench Wars, with another player named Dock. There he did custom game bots and other chat-tools. There were rumors that he was involved with Kazaa back then and later on I find out he goes on to be involved with Skype and Joost. Continuum continued to grow and thrive. The backend server was eventually reimplemented into A Small Subspace Server (ASSS) so now this game was a complete user recreation of the original. Well, minus the graphics which was in limbo from some sale to a third party company but they never had complaints. Then a few years ago we grt the game green lit on steam. Little trek down memory lane. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubSpace_(video_game) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubSpace_(video_game) https://store.steampowered.com/app/2530450/Continuum/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/2530450/Continuum/
      - Lammy 2y ago
        Amusingly KaZaA itself was one of my first experiences using an “alternative” client for something. There was KaZaA Lite which removed the bundled Cydoor malware, K++ which added hax features like unlimited searches and forced 1000 node reputation, and the most famous KaZaA Lite K++ which did both. Lots of others too like “KL Extensions”, K-Sig, K-Dat, but those were the two big ones.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        TheKarateKid 2y ago
        Wow that was a blast from the past. I remember hanging out on the K-Lite forums back in the day and when a new release was exciting.
        Scoundreller 2y ago
        Back in the day when you could download random .exe’s with relatively low risk. Feels unconscionable today that I used to do that from paytv forums.
      - ZeWaka 2y ago
        I think you linked the wrong steam game, it's https://store.steampowered.com/app/352700/Subspace_Continuum/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/352700/Subspace_Continuum... :)
        pests 2y ago
        Whoops, thank you, yes.
    - Scoundreller 2y ago
      Makes sense that the SuperPeers core from Kazaa was re-used in Skype.
- Beijinger 2y ago
  eBay is just a terrible company. (Yet, I like and use it more than Amazon). ebay had Paypal. They had Skype. And Skype was a kind of social network. eBay could have been Facebook, WhatsApp, WeChat, WYSE, but eBay always stayed, eBay.
  - qingcharles 2y ago
    eBay was great for the first few years. After that it just slowly enshittified. The search has only got worse, never better in 20 years. I can't tell if their research pushes them to make the site continuously worse, or whether they just generally hate their users? note: I've used it religiously since it launched
    - toyg 2y ago
      My theory is that they sit on a mountain of technical debt that nobody dares touching. I think they started in Perl, then URLs started pointing to DLLs (!), so heck knows what they've done... They were one of the very first websites that had to deal with humongous scaling issues, so I'm not saying they are stupid - just that, after a certain point in time, they probably ossified at a level that makes meaningful progress too difficult.
lern_too_spel 2y ago
Mass surveillance was easier when anyone, including the NSA, could run a supernode. Microsoft had to run its own supernodes because usage changed from most people running Skype on desktops, which could be supernodes, to most people running Skype on phones, which can't. At that point, it hardly makes sense to push new supernode functionality for multiparty video calls and other optimizations to end users to handle a small fraction of calls when updating your own servers is much easier. WebRTC will happily set up a P2P video call with better encryption than the old Skype had if all you need is a 1-1 call without NAT traversal.
- smallerfish 2y ago
  > if all you need is a 1-1 call without NAT traversal. That part of your sentence is doing a lot of work. It has to be as easy as clicking on a contact for oldsters.
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    That's the point. That's why Skype had supernodes, and that's why Skype on mobiles meant that Microsoft needed to run its own supernodes. At that point, you might as well add features like multiparty video calls, and then it makes no sense to have your users install supernodes software.
    - Nullabillity 2y ago
      Skype mobile didn't matter as long as you still have a decent pool of desktop users online.
wslh 2y ago
Back then in 2009 we were [1] intercepting Skype calls before the offered plugins. [1] https://www.nektra.com/main/2009/02/24/directsound-capture-using-deviare/ https://www.nektra.com/main/2009/02/24/directsound-capture-u...
nimish 2y ago
Naw, having been there, Microsoft killed Skype because it had no idea how to manage a B2C product.
- zx8080 2y ago
  > microsoft > had no idea how to manage a B2C product What does this mean? MS has enough of b2c products. Windows is. Office is. Not enough?
  - inetknght 2y ago
    > MS has enough of b2c products. Windows is. Office is. Not enough? You really think Windows (11, since anything older is gone) is a b2c product? It's free. It has advertisements. It has a data mining AI. You are not the customer. Windows is a b2b product. You really think Office (365, since anything older is gone) is a b2c product? It's "free". It has advertisements. It has data mining AI. You are not the customer. Office is a b2b product.
    - zx8080 2y ago
      > You really think Windows (11, since anything older is gone) is a b2c product? It's free. Windows is not "free". Win 11 Home price is $120, upgrade to Pro is $100 [0]. 0 - https://www.amazon.com/s?k=windows%2011%20home&ref=glow_cls https://www.amazon.com/s?k=windows%2011%20home&ref=glow_cls
      - Nullabillity 2y ago
        "Free" for OEMs, or as long as you're already in the system. Outside of enthusiasts, those are the two groups who matter here (not that I'm happy w/ that situation, not at all).
    - TZubiri 2y ago
      "It has a data mining AI. You are not the customer." You got most of the tokens right, but windows is a paid product, try that with meta or google products and you got it.

by Lammy 2y ago

qingcharles 2y ago

Well, the better ask is why eBay bought it...

Scoundreller 2y ago
And even when eBay thought they bought it, apparently they didn’t buy all of it: https://www.theregister.com/2009/11/06/ebay_skype/ https://www.theregister.com/2009/11/06/ebay_skype/ https://www.hugheshubbard.com/news/the-best-laid-m-a-plans-how-a-dispute-over-ownership-of-critical-ip-may-threaten-ebays-sale-of-skype https://www.hugheshubbard.com/news/the-best-laid-m-a-plans-h...
- hedgehog 2y ago
  Oh it gets better. Apparently some of the stuff they didn't get dated back to Kazaa. Some of the Skype founders were under indictment and traveling incognito while they raised money for the new company.
  - pests 2y ago
    I had interacted with Pritt Kasesalu (PrittK) when I was very young. In the late 90/early 00s I played an MMO developed by Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) named Subspace, released in the mid 90s. It was a top down astroids-like space game with maps of up to 100 or more players, even back then. The game shut down officially but the server leaked and became community ran. The original client was not very secure so hacking and cheating became common. Out of nowhere comes Continuum, a ground up reimplementation of the Subspace client by none other than PrittK, completely eliminating any cheats but changing nothing of gameplay or UI. He went on to co-own the largest server, Trench Wars, with another player named Dock. There he did custom game bots and other chat-tools. There were rumors that he was involved with Kazaa back then and later on I find out he goes on to be involved with Skype and Joost. Continuum continued to grow and thrive. The backend server was eventually reimplemented into A Small Subspace Server (ASSS) so now this game was a complete user recreation of the original. Well, minus the graphics which was in limbo from some sale to a third party company but they never had complaints. Then a few years ago we grt the game green lit on steam. Little trek down memory lane. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubSpace_(video_game) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubSpace_(video_game) https://store.steampowered.com/app/2530450/Continuum/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/2530450/Continuum/
    - Lammy 2y ago
      Amusingly KaZaA itself was one of my first experiences using an “alternative” client for something. There was KaZaA Lite which removed the bundled Cydoor malware, K++ which added hax features like unlimited searches and forced 1000 node reputation, and the most famous KaZaA Lite K++ which did both. Lots of others too like “KL Extensions”, K-Sig, K-Dat, but those were the two big ones.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - TheKarateKid 2y ago
        Wow that was a blast from the past. I remember hanging out on the K-Lite forums back in the day and when a new release was exciting.
        Scoundreller 2y ago
        Back in the day when you could download random .exe’s with relatively low risk. Feels unconscionable today that I used to do that from paytv forums.
    - ZeWaka 2y ago
      I think you linked the wrong steam game, it's https://store.steampowered.com/app/352700/Subspace_Continuum/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/352700/Subspace_Continuum... :)
      - pests 2y ago
        Whoops, thank you, yes.
  - Scoundreller 2y ago
    Makes sense that the SuperPeers core from Kazaa was re-used in Skype.
Beijinger 2y ago
eBay is just a terrible company. (Yet, I like and use it more than Amazon). ebay had Paypal. They had Skype. And Skype was a kind of social network. eBay could have been Facebook, WhatsApp, WeChat, WYSE, but eBay always stayed, eBay.
- qingcharles 2y ago
  eBay was great for the first few years. After that it just slowly enshittified. The search has only got worse, never better in 20 years. I can't tell if their research pushes them to make the site continuously worse, or whether they just generally hate their users? note: I've used it religiously since it launched
  - toyg 2y ago
    My theory is that they sit on a mountain of technical debt that nobody dares touching. I think they started in Perl, then URLs started pointing to DLLs (!), so heck knows what they've done... They were one of the very first websites that had to deal with humongous scaling issues, so I'm not saying they are stupid - just that, after a certain point in time, they probably ossified at a level that makes meaningful progress too difficult.

lern_too_spel 2y ago

Mass surveillance was easier when anyone, including the NSA, could run a supernode. Microsoft had to run its own supernodes because usage changed from most people running Skype on desktops, which could be supernodes, to most people running Skype on phones, which can't. At that point, it hardly makes sense to push new supernode functionality for multiparty video calls and other optimizations to end users to handle a small fraction of calls when updating your own servers is much easier. WebRTC will happily set up a P2P video call with better encryption than the old Skype had if all you need is a 1-1 call without NAT traversal.

smallerfish 2y ago
> if all you need is a 1-1 call without NAT traversal. That part of your sentence is doing a lot of work. It has to be as easy as clicking on a contact for oldsters.
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
  That's the point. That's why Skype had supernodes, and that's why Skype on mobiles meant that Microsoft needed to run its own supernodes. At that point, you might as well add features like multiparty video calls, and then it makes no sense to have your users install supernodes software.
  - Nullabillity 2y ago
    Skype mobile didn't matter as long as you still have a decent pool of desktop users online.

wslh 2y ago

Back then in 2009 we were [1] intercepting Skype calls before the offered plugins. [1] https://www.nektra.com/main/2009/02/24/directsound-capture-using-deviare/ https://www.nektra.com/main/2009/02/24/directsound-capture-u...

nimish 2y ago

Naw, having been there, Microsoft killed Skype because it had no idea how to manage a B2C product.

zx8080 2y ago
> microsoft > had no idea how to manage a B2C product What does this mean? MS has enough of b2c products. Windows is. Office is. Not enough?
- inetknght 2y ago
  > MS has enough of b2c products. Windows is. Office is. Not enough? You really think Windows (11, since anything older is gone) is a b2c product? It's free. It has advertisements. It has a data mining AI. You are not the customer. Windows is a b2b product. You really think Office (365, since anything older is gone) is a b2c product? It's "free". It has advertisements. It has data mining AI. You are not the customer. Office is a b2b product.
  - zx8080 2y ago
    > You really think Windows (11, since anything older is gone) is a b2c product? It's free. Windows is not "free". Win 11 Home price is $120, upgrade to Pro is $100 [0]. 0 - https://www.amazon.com/s?k=windows%2011%20home&ref=glow_cls https://www.amazon.com/s?k=windows%2011%20home&ref=glow_cls
    - Nullabillity 2y ago
      "Free" for OEMs, or as long as you're already in the system. Outside of enthusiasts, those are the two groups who matter here (not that I'm happy w/ that situation, not at all).
  - TZubiri 2y ago
    "It has a data mining AI. You are not the customer." You got most of the tokens right, but windows is a paid product, try that with meta or google products and you got it.