45 ms·

I've seen good frameworks (OWL, Nitrogen + Powerplant, maybe 1 or 2 more), and I've seen a crap-ton of bad frameworks (any web framework on java, minus maybe We

I've seen good frameworks (OWL, Nitrogen + Powerplant, maybe 1 or 2 more), and I've seen a crap-ton of bad frameworks (any web framework on java, minus maybe WebObjects). They're necessary, but they're hard to do right. The man who did Powerplant said he went through about a dozen different designs before getting one he liked. That's why it was often so useful. Most times, people say "hey, let's take these APIs and let people subclass! yay!" And that's how you end up with crap like doGet(), doPost(), etc.

jimbokun 18y ago
"minus maybe WebObjects" What made WO great were the tools. There was still complexity there, but WOBuilder and EOModeler made the whole process very productive. You could think of your data model, your interface, and your business logic independently of each other, and then use the tools to hook them together in a way that made sense. Because of the way the tools were designed, they actually made using good design for your application easier than using bad design. That's the main thing missing from all the frameworks I see today, integrated tools that automate the tedious parts and encourage good design practices. To me, the WO tools go on the heap with the Lisp Machine, the Xerox Park Smalltalk environment and HyperCard, as old development technologies that are still ahead of today's state of the art. EDIT: spelling correction
- gnaritas 18y ago
  That would be Smalltalk not SmallTalk, and some of us still use it, daily, for web apps. It might not be in wide use, but it isn't on the scrap heap.
  - boucher 18y ago
    People still use WebObjects everyday too (I used to be one of them), but not very many. I'd say WebObjects is basically on the scrap heap.
- coolestuk 18y ago
  I would agree with you, apart from the remarks about "the (scrap) heap" :-) . I still use two of those technologies (WebObjects and Hypercard) almost every day, and I never used either of them until about 5 years ago. For what they do, they are peerless. For information about using WebObjects I'd suggest people visit http://www.wocommunity.org http://www.wocommunity.org, and if anyone's interested in Hypercard, try http://www.runrev.com http://www.runrev.com (a modern cross-platform hypercard).

jimbokun 18y ago

"minus maybe WebObjects" What made WO great were the tools. There was still complexity there, but WOBuilder and EOModeler made the whole process very productive. You could think of your data model, your interface, and your business logic independently of each other, and then use the tools to hook them together in a way that made sense. Because of the way the tools were designed, they actually made using good design for your application easier than using bad design. That's the main thing missing from all the frameworks I see today, integrated tools that automate the tedious parts and encourage good design practices. To me, the WO tools go on the heap with the Lisp Machine, the Xerox Park Smalltalk environment and HyperCard, as old development technologies that are still ahead of today's state of the art. EDIT: spelling correction

gnaritas 18y ago
That would be Smalltalk not SmallTalk, and some of us still use it, daily, for web apps. It might not be in wide use, but it isn't on the scrap heap.
- boucher 18y ago
  People still use WebObjects everyday too (I used to be one of them), but not very many. I'd say WebObjects is basically on the scrap heap.
coolestuk 18y ago
I would agree with you, apart from the remarks about "the (scrap) heap" :-) . I still use two of those technologies (WebObjects and Hypercard) almost every day, and I never used either of them until about 5 years ago. For what they do, they are peerless. For information about using WebObjects I'd suggest people visit http://www.wocommunity.org http://www.wocommunity.org, and if anyone's interested in Hypercard, try http://www.runrev.com http://www.runrev.com (a modern cross-platform hypercard).