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Arc is a Chromium web browser that also includes uBlock Origin in the default install. Orion is a WebKit web browser from the folks at Kagi that supports both

by SllX 2y ago

Arc is a Chromium web browser that also includes uBlock Origin in the default install. Orion is a WebKit web browser from the folks at Kagi that supports both Firefox and Chromium extensions (including on iPhones and iPads) and has zero telemetry, and I have the Firefox version of uBlock Origin installed. Firefox is not the only option for people that want alternatives to Chrome that support uBlock Origin.

elcomet 2y ago
If it's chromium based, they will need to remove manifest v2 at some point to stay close to the upstream version.
- SllX 2y ago
  Possibly in Arc, although Brave also continues to support Manifest v2 so it’s possible it will continue to persist in some subset of Chromium-based browsers and as I said, it ships with the browser and is installed by default; but Orion is not Chromium-based.
  - ffsm8 2y ago
    Brave supports it right now, which is 2 months after it's been removed upstream. I strongly suspect they're gonna drop support as soon as the first bigger merge issue happens along with a heartfelt blog that "they did they everything to support it, but it was just too much for the resources available to them" I doubt it's gonna take more then 1-2 years (December 2027) for this to happen, but we will see.
    - lillecarl 2y ago
      I don't understand or know alot about extensions, but what is so incredibly impossible about adding new capabilities to manifestv3? It's a manifest describing what the addon wants to do and some UX to allow it right?
      - fuzzy2 2y ago
        It’s not really about the manifest. It’s about the APIs available to extension programmers. Chrome has made the "webRequestBlocking" API unavailable and that’s what’s affecting adblockers. Chrome will eventually remove the code supporting this API, and it is not feasible for downstream to make it available anyway.
        notpushkin 2y ago
        Why can’t forks just maintain an independent implementation afterwards?
        ffsm8 2y ago
        They could, theoretically. But just imagine what that actually means. Unless you cease merging upstream/the project you've forked, you'll have to resolve all conflicts caused by this divergence. And that's a lot of work for a multi million LOC project, unless the architecture is specifically made to support such extensions... which isn't the case here. And freezing your merges indefinitely isn't really viable either for a browser
        Zak 2y ago
        A quick look at the code gives me the impression that webRequestBlocking is a fairly trivial modification to webRequest, and they seem to be keeping the latter. This leads me to two conclusions: it wouldn't be terribly hard for a fork maintainer to keep webRequestBlocking, and Google's technical excuses for removing it are disingenuous.
        justinclift 2y ago
        > ... and Google's technical excuses for removing it are disingenuous. That's been the default assumption of pretty much everyone anyway.
        account42 2y ago
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
      Chrome officially supports Manifest V2 extensions until at least June 2025, hidden behind an enterprise flag: https://developer.chrome.com/docs/extensions/develop/migrate/mv2-deprecation-timeline#june_2025_chrome_mv2_deprecation_enterprise_rollout https://developer.chrome.com/docs/extensions/develop/migrate... I expect Brave to easily support it until then and then drop it very quickly as you described.
      - b112 2y ago
        You know, Google's really playing with fire here. There are enough browser companies running Chrome underneath, to more than equal Google's commitment. That is, if those companies choose. If even 80% of them wanted to fork? Not a biggie. And they could still cherry pick commits from the alt fork.
        jay_kyburz 2y ago
        How hard would it be to "wrap" the browser in a ublock like shell, so that all network requests are filtered through a firewall before they even reach the chrome application layer. It might be easier to maintain than an actual extension interface with hooks thought the code.
        ffsm8 2y ago
        I don't think you'd need manifest V2 for such a rudimenty logic. The reason why ublock origin is so powerful is because it works with the DOM/not at the network level and can use heuristics to determine wherever something is a advertisement or not.
        jay_kyburz 2y ago
        I imaged you would use both.
        Barrin92 2y ago
        I think you might be underestimating the scope of work that happens on chromium a tad, from Github's "pulse" feature: "Excluding merges, 684 authors have pushed 3,139 commits to main and 3,866 commits to all branches. On main, 14,924 files have changed and there have been 740,516 additions and 172,682 deletions." That's stats from last week. Last year Google apparently was responsible for about 95% of contributions. Other than Microsoft (which has the same bad incentives as Google) none of the alt-chromium browser companies has like, 5% of the engineers to maintain a real alternative
    - kolanos 2y ago
      This is arguably the most compelling reason for people to switch to Brave. If there are smart people over there, they'll make a concerted effort to keep Manifest v2 in their fork.
    - mindcrash 2y ago
      Brave supports uBO blocklists OOTB, no extension needed. So even when they have to say farewell to Manifest v2 it really doesn't matter, at least in case of privacy (and for some medical) protection.
      - SllX 2y ago
        This is good info to keep in my back pocket. Thanks!
      - paradox460 2y ago
        As does Vivaldi
      - soundnote 2y ago
        In addition, since their adblocker isn't an extension and doesn't care about extension APIs, they can do things even Manifest v2 Chrome extensions can't. For example, full-fat uBO can't do CNAME uncloaking on Chromium due to API limitations, but can do it on Firefox which has the APIs. Brave is Chromium-based, but since Shields isn't an extension they've built CNAME uncloaking into it.
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  I think if a bunch of Chromium forks come together, they can maintain v2 support for quite a while. A fork maintained by a combination of Brave, Opera, Vivaldi, and maybe some of those startup-based browsers can probably keep the most important APIs running for quite some time. At some point the issues will become too difficult to fix, but none of these companies need to be doing it alone. Adding a separate upstream with some "fuck off Google" fixes for them to base their proprietary browser on seems like a smart thing to do.
AnonC 2y ago
Orion cannot support uBlock Origin completely either. I know that Orion allows the extension to be installed (I have done it too), but it only has partial support. Quoting from a reply in a discussion on the Orion Feedback site from a few months ago (November 2024): > " uBO is not supported on iOS due to Apple limitations." [1]: https://orionfeedback.org/d/9145-ublock-origin-not-existent-on-ios/2 https://orionfeedback.org/d/9145-ublock-origin-not-existent-...
- voidmain0001 2y ago
  I am using Orion on iOS with uBO for two years and UBO works well enough for me. There is the odd website that won’t load in Orion so I switch to Safari, which I never use, and the amount of ads that are presented in Safari reassures me that uBO in Orion is working.
  - Squarex 2y ago
    I've just tested it and while the ubo extension can be installed, it does not work at all. I use brave browser and nextdns to block ads on ios now.
    - ShockedUnicorn 2y ago
      The ubo extension does work in orion, but I remember having to go somewhere deep into settings to make it actually be enabled. I don't remember exactly how I did it but eventually after a few restarts of the browser I got it working. I did compare against other adblock systems on ios and found it to be the best option, as other adblocks either gave broken webpages or just didn't work at all.
      - brendoelfrendo 2y ago
        Are you sure you're not just using Orion's built-in content blocker? I realized I had the uBO extension installed on iOS but it wasn't doing anything because I also had Orion's ad blocking enabled.
      - 2y ago
tobyhinloopen 2y ago
Whose idea was it to take over the whole screen and play sound when you start Arc for the first time? It also showed a signup screen. I removed it right away. I just want a browser, not whatever that was.
- ljm 2y ago
  I was using Arc as my main browser until they added the mandatory account requirement. It came around the same time they moved iCloud syncing to their own backend. Now I just use Safari because all I do really is read stuff.
- rchaud 2y ago
  "The Browser Company" does not want to be seen as a dumb pipe. You are not downloading a mere browser, but a "platform" for "experiencing the web as never before".
  - mihaaly 2y ago
    "It's not shit, it's experience" kind of corporate bs repacked?
  - Yeul 2y ago
    They have to make money somehow I guess. Obviously Google has many income streams. Mozilla does not. It always comes down to the question: do you want to pay money for a browser? And the answer for 99% of the users is "hell no".
    - rchaud 2y ago
      ...and US tech companies take that as a reason to fill the app with feature bloat and then charge a subscription for it. Arc as a product is dead because the founders are of course pivoting to an "AI browser".
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  Arc is a very... Appley browser. Its marketing and communication pretends it's a world-changing product of massive importance, something everyone desires to own. In reality, it's a fork of someone else's browser with some UX tweaks. I looked into it, but couldn't get over the pretentiousness. They seem to make plenty of money from either investors or customers because they're not bankrupt yet, so I guess there must be a demographic that likes being treated like that. There's something funny about a browser pretending it's the best thing since sliced bread telling me to drag the downloaded application to the macOS dock after downloading the Windows setup file.
cpeterso 2y ago
Arc is in maintenance mode as The Browser Company focuses on building a new browser: https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/24/24279020/browser-company-ai-browser-arc https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/24/24279020/browser-company...
- deanc 2y ago
  Lost all trust for a lot of users after they did this. Zen browser would be an almost drop-in replacement for those that like Arc but it uses FF under the hood instead.
- SllX 2y ago
  Yeah, I saw their YouTube video which was immensely annoying to watch. That’s why I was pretty pleased when I discovered Orion and I recently switched from Arc and MobileSafari to Orion as my defaults, but I’m using Arc as the Chromium browser I keep around for when that matters (which right now just means DRM streaming sites like Netflix and Crunchyroll), but Brave could fill this spot just as easily.
tomrod 2y ago
Especially since Firefox's new leadership has been encroaching on a lot of the value Firefox provides people (e.g removing the pledge to not sell data?!?).
_hyn3 2y ago
Also Brave.. just not sure when or if someone will breaking fork chromium.
hsuduebc2 2y ago
What about Brave? I eas avoiding it for a long time for no reason while chrome was getting continually worse. Maybe it's time
- wyclif 2y ago
  It's time. People can complain that "oh it's based on Chromium" but I don't think that's the hill to die on right now.
  - radlad 2y ago
    What makes Brave a better choice than Firefox? While it claims to be privacy-focused, it's developed by a VC-funded company, not a non-profit foundation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_(web_browser)#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_(web_browser)#Controvers...
    - superq 2y ago
      Mozilla now sells data, while Brave does not?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - radlad 2y ago
        Does Mozilla sell your data, or did they remove language saying they won't? Do you really think Brave won't, when it comes time to pay the piper?
      - glenstein 2y ago
        Brave sells ads and discloses aggregate-level data to advertisers, and has a history of trust-undermining transgressions mentioned upthread: >installs VPN without asking, overriding links to insert referral codes, collecting donations for YouTubers without YouTubers even knowing about it, etc, etc
    - 2y ago
ls612 2y ago
Please use Firefox instead of a Chromium derivative. We need variety in the browser space and Gecko is pretty much the only independent option remaining.
- SllX 2y ago
  No. Firefox is still my primary work browser because all the anti-tracking stuff Orion does actually breaks some sites I depend on (well, makes them harder to use anyway), but Orion has become my main and I have lost confidence in Mozilla. If you want to continue using Firefox as a kind of service to the world or weird self-imposed civic duty, that’s on you. I can pay for Orion and know that there is a company with an actual business model behind it and also not worry about misaligned incentives, or fixing all the tracking and telemetry defaults (only to watch my hard work crumble like when a random Firefox update hosed my settings on my personal machine a couple years ago) because there is no telemetry.
  - ls612 2y ago
    Idk I switched about a year and a half ago from Chrome and aside from Firefox still being slower I haven’t had any issues. All the websites I visit and the features I use like Nvidia video upscaling work fine. Ublock Origin works fine which is really the most important thing. I’ll eat my hat if any Chromium derivative is still supporting MV2 in 2030.
    - SllX 2y ago
      I keep having to correct people up and down this thread. Orion is not a Chromium derivative. Further, nobody here said Firefox was incapable as a browser. Use it if you like it, but having used Firefox off and on since 2005, I’ve written it off on my personal machines.
      - maleldil 2y ago
        It's a Safari derivative (WebKit). You're still giving market share for an engine owned by a large corporation.
wubrr 2y ago
Arc and Orion are both closed source.
catlikesshrimp 2y ago
I wish they released an android version, much easily ported to debian &| windows. Although, if kagi fails, it probably won't matter.
- SllX 2y ago
  On an HN thread a couple weeks back, the Kagi team mentioned they just started working on a Linux version of Orion. No idea what they plan to do about syncing though since right now they just use iCloud syncing, but it’s a start.
Natfan 2y ago
Arc is a Chromium browser that has been kneecapped to explicitly not work on Linux. No thanks!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by SllX 2y ago

elcomet 2y ago

If it's chromium based, they will need to remove manifest v2 at some point to stay close to the upstream version.

SllX 2y ago
Possibly in Arc, although Brave also continues to support Manifest v2 so it’s possible it will continue to persist in some subset of Chromium-based browsers and as I said, it ships with the browser and is installed by default; but Orion is not Chromium-based.
- ffsm8 2y ago
  Brave supports it right now, which is 2 months after it's been removed upstream. I strongly suspect they're gonna drop support as soon as the first bigger merge issue happens along with a heartfelt blog that "they did they everything to support it, but it was just too much for the resources available to them" I doubt it's gonna take more then 1-2 years (December 2027) for this to happen, but we will see.
  - lillecarl 2y ago
    I don't understand or know alot about extensions, but what is so incredibly impossible about adding new capabilities to manifestv3? It's a manifest describing what the addon wants to do and some UX to allow it right?
    - fuzzy2 2y ago
      It’s not really about the manifest. It’s about the APIs available to extension programmers. Chrome has made the "webRequestBlocking" API unavailable and that’s what’s affecting adblockers. Chrome will eventually remove the code supporting this API, and it is not feasible for downstream to make it available anyway.
      - notpushkin 2y ago
        Why can’t forks just maintain an independent implementation afterwards?
        ffsm8 2y ago
        They could, theoretically. But just imagine what that actually means. Unless you cease merging upstream/the project you've forked, you'll have to resolve all conflicts caused by this divergence. And that's a lot of work for a multi million LOC project, unless the architecture is specifically made to support such extensions... which isn't the case here. And freezing your merges indefinitely isn't really viable either for a browser
        Zak 2y ago
        A quick look at the code gives me the impression that webRequestBlocking is a fairly trivial modification to webRequest, and they seem to be keeping the latter. This leads me to two conclusions: it wouldn't be terribly hard for a fork maintainer to keep webRequestBlocking, and Google's technical excuses for removing it are disingenuous.
        justinclift 2y ago
        > ... and Google's technical excuses for removing it are disingenuous. That's been the default assumption of pretty much everyone anyway.
        account42 2y ago
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
    Chrome officially supports Manifest V2 extensions until at least June 2025, hidden behind an enterprise flag: https://developer.chrome.com/docs/extensions/develop/migrate/mv2-deprecation-timeline#june_2025_chrome_mv2_deprecation_enterprise_rollout https://developer.chrome.com/docs/extensions/develop/migrate... I expect Brave to easily support it until then and then drop it very quickly as you described.
    - b112 2y ago
      You know, Google's really playing with fire here. There are enough browser companies running Chrome underneath, to more than equal Google's commitment. That is, if those companies choose. If even 80% of them wanted to fork? Not a biggie. And they could still cherry pick commits from the alt fork.
      - jay_kyburz 2y ago
        How hard would it be to "wrap" the browser in a ublock like shell, so that all network requests are filtered through a firewall before they even reach the chrome application layer. It might be easier to maintain than an actual extension interface with hooks thought the code.
        ffsm8 2y ago
        I don't think you'd need manifest V2 for such a rudimenty logic. The reason why ublock origin is so powerful is because it works with the DOM/not at the network level and can use heuristics to determine wherever something is a advertisement or not.
        jay_kyburz 2y ago
        I imaged you would use both.
      - Barrin92 2y ago
        I think you might be underestimating the scope of work that happens on chromium a tad, from Github's "pulse" feature: "Excluding merges, 684 authors have pushed 3,139 commits to main and 3,866 commits to all branches. On main, 14,924 files have changed and there have been 740,516 additions and 172,682 deletions." That's stats from last week. Last year Google apparently was responsible for about 95% of contributions. Other than Microsoft (which has the same bad incentives as Google) none of the alt-chromium browser companies has like, 5% of the engineers to maintain a real alternative
  - kolanos 2y ago
    This is arguably the most compelling reason for people to switch to Brave. If there are smart people over there, they'll make a concerted effort to keep Manifest v2 in their fork.
  - mindcrash 2y ago
    Brave supports uBO blocklists OOTB, no extension needed. So even when they have to say farewell to Manifest v2 it really doesn't matter, at least in case of privacy (and for some medical) protection.
    - SllX 2y ago
      This is good info to keep in my back pocket. Thanks!
    - paradox460 2y ago
      As does Vivaldi
    - soundnote 2y ago
      In addition, since their adblocker isn't an extension and doesn't care about extension APIs, they can do things even Manifest v2 Chrome extensions can't. For example, full-fat uBO can't do CNAME uncloaking on Chromium due to API limitations, but can do it on Firefox which has the APIs. Brave is Chromium-based, but since Shields isn't an extension they've built CNAME uncloaking into it.
jeroenhd 2y ago
I think if a bunch of Chromium forks come together, they can maintain v2 support for quite a while. A fork maintained by a combination of Brave, Opera, Vivaldi, and maybe some of those startup-based browsers can probably keep the most important APIs running for quite some time. At some point the issues will become too difficult to fix, but none of these companies need to be doing it alone. Adding a separate upstream with some "fuck off Google" fixes for them to base their proprietary browser on seems like a smart thing to do.

AnonC 2y ago

Orion cannot support uBlock Origin completely either. I know that Orion allows the extension to be installed (I have done it too), but it only has partial support. Quoting from a reply in a discussion on the Orion Feedback site from a few months ago (November 2024): > " uBO is not supported on iOS due to Apple limitations." [1]: https://orionfeedback.org/d/9145-ublock-origin-not-existent-on-ios/2 https://orionfeedback.org/d/9145-ublock-origin-not-existent-...

voidmain0001 2y ago
I am using Orion on iOS with uBO for two years and UBO works well enough for me. There is the odd website that won’t load in Orion so I switch to Safari, which I never use, and the amount of ads that are presented in Safari reassures me that uBO in Orion is working.
- Squarex 2y ago
  I've just tested it and while the ubo extension can be installed, it does not work at all. I use brave browser and nextdns to block ads on ios now.
  - ShockedUnicorn 2y ago
    The ubo extension does work in orion, but I remember having to go somewhere deep into settings to make it actually be enabled. I don't remember exactly how I did it but eventually after a few restarts of the browser I got it working. I did compare against other adblock systems on ios and found it to be the best option, as other adblocks either gave broken webpages or just didn't work at all.
    - brendoelfrendo 2y ago
      Are you sure you're not just using Orion's built-in content blocker? I realized I had the uBO extension installed on iOS but it wasn't doing anything because I also had Orion's ad blocking enabled.
    - 2y ago

tobyhinloopen 2y ago

Whose idea was it to take over the whole screen and play sound when you start Arc for the first time? It also showed a signup screen. I removed it right away. I just want a browser, not whatever that was.

ljm 2y ago
I was using Arc as my main browser until they added the mandatory account requirement. It came around the same time they moved iCloud syncing to their own backend. Now I just use Safari because all I do really is read stuff.
rchaud 2y ago
"The Browser Company" does not want to be seen as a dumb pipe. You are not downloading a mere browser, but a "platform" for "experiencing the web as never before".
- mihaaly 2y ago
  "It's not shit, it's experience" kind of corporate bs repacked?
- Yeul 2y ago
  They have to make money somehow I guess. Obviously Google has many income streams. Mozilla does not. It always comes down to the question: do you want to pay money for a browser? And the answer for 99% of the users is "hell no".
  - rchaud 2y ago
    ...and US tech companies take that as a reason to fill the app with feature bloat and then charge a subscription for it. Arc as a product is dead because the founders are of course pivoting to an "AI browser".
jeroenhd 2y ago
Arc is a very... Appley browser. Its marketing and communication pretends it's a world-changing product of massive importance, something everyone desires to own. In reality, it's a fork of someone else's browser with some UX tweaks. I looked into it, but couldn't get over the pretentiousness. They seem to make plenty of money from either investors or customers because they're not bankrupt yet, so I guess there must be a demographic that likes being treated like that. There's something funny about a browser pretending it's the best thing since sliced bread telling me to drag the downloaded application to the macOS dock after downloading the Windows setup file.

cpeterso 2y ago

Arc is in maintenance mode as The Browser Company focuses on building a new browser: https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/24/24279020/browser-company-ai-browser-arc https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/24/24279020/browser-company...

deanc 2y ago
Lost all trust for a lot of users after they did this. Zen browser would be an almost drop-in replacement for those that like Arc but it uses FF under the hood instead.
SllX 2y ago
Yeah, I saw their YouTube video which was immensely annoying to watch. That’s why I was pretty pleased when I discovered Orion and I recently switched from Arc and MobileSafari to Orion as my defaults, but I’m using Arc as the Chromium browser I keep around for when that matters (which right now just means DRM streaming sites like Netflix and Crunchyroll), but Brave could fill this spot just as easily.

tomrod 2y ago

Especially since Firefox's new leadership has been encroaching on a lot of the value Firefox provides people (e.g removing the pledge to not sell data?!?).

_hyn3 2y ago

Also Brave.. just not sure when or if someone will breaking fork chromium.

hsuduebc2 2y ago

What about Brave? I eas avoiding it for a long time for no reason while chrome was getting continually worse. Maybe it's time

wyclif 2y ago
It's time. People can complain that "oh it's based on Chromium" but I don't think that's the hill to die on right now.
- radlad 2y ago
  What makes Brave a better choice than Firefox? While it claims to be privacy-focused, it's developed by a VC-funded company, not a non-profit foundation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_(web_browser)#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_(web_browser)#Controvers...
  - superq 2y ago
    Mozilla now sells data, while Brave does not?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - radlad 2y ago
      Does Mozilla sell your data, or did they remove language saying they won't? Do you really think Brave won't, when it comes time to pay the piper?
    - glenstein 2y ago
      Brave sells ads and discloses aggregate-level data to advertisers, and has a history of trust-undermining transgressions mentioned upthread: >installs VPN without asking, overriding links to insert referral codes, collecting donations for YouTubers without YouTubers even knowing about it, etc, etc
  - 2y ago

ls612 2y ago

Please use Firefox instead of a Chromium derivative. We need variety in the browser space and Gecko is pretty much the only independent option remaining.

SllX 2y ago
No. Firefox is still my primary work browser because all the anti-tracking stuff Orion does actually breaks some sites I depend on (well, makes them harder to use anyway), but Orion has become my main and I have lost confidence in Mozilla. If you want to continue using Firefox as a kind of service to the world or weird self-imposed civic duty, that’s on you. I can pay for Orion and know that there is a company with an actual business model behind it and also not worry about misaligned incentives, or fixing all the tracking and telemetry defaults (only to watch my hard work crumble like when a random Firefox update hosed my settings on my personal machine a couple years ago) because there is no telemetry.
- ls612 2y ago
  Idk I switched about a year and a half ago from Chrome and aside from Firefox still being slower I haven’t had any issues. All the websites I visit and the features I use like Nvidia video upscaling work fine. Ublock Origin works fine which is really the most important thing. I’ll eat my hat if any Chromium derivative is still supporting MV2 in 2030.
  - SllX 2y ago
    I keep having to correct people up and down this thread. Orion is not a Chromium derivative. Further, nobody here said Firefox was incapable as a browser. Use it if you like it, but having used Firefox off and on since 2005, I’ve written it off on my personal machines.
    - maleldil 2y ago
      It's a Safari derivative (WebKit). You're still giving market share for an engine owned by a large corporation.

wubrr 2y ago

Arc and Orion are both closed source.

catlikesshrimp 2y ago

I wish they released an android version, much easily ported to debian &| windows. Although, if kagi fails, it probably won't matter.

SllX 2y ago
On an HN thread a couple weeks back, the Kagi team mentioned they just started working on a Linux version of Orion. No idea what they plan to do about syncing though since right now they just use iCloud syncing, but it’s a start.

Natfan 2y ago

Arc is a Chromium browser that has been kneecapped to explicitly not work on Linux. No thanks!

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]