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> It's against the Terms of Use to use Firefox to... watch porn? Firefox isn't a Mozilla service. The Mozilla services are things like account sync, or the rev

> It's against the Terms of Use to use Firefox to... watch porn? Firefox isn't a Mozilla service. The Mozilla services are things like account sync, or the review tool they use.

laszlokorte 2y ago
So what about synced bookmarks?
- pentagrama 2y ago
  And synced history.
- kg 2y ago
  If you're syncing a bookmark that is somehow illegal content, it would come to rest on their servers and they'd potentially be liable for it. (IIRC they encrypt everything at rest, so this is a speculative risk)
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    Porn is not illegal, either are the Rambo movies.
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    Depictions of sexuality or violence are legal in most places, even if said depictions are graphic
- tiltowait 2y ago
  I wouldn’t expect the bookmark to run afoul of this clause, since the bookmark isn’t the content. Now it’d be a curious case if the bookmark contained a base64-encoded pornographic image.
  - smolder 2y ago
    You seem to be assuming competence on the part of the author. But, as is common with documents that lawyers generate, they probably don't care if it's reasonable or if practically every one of their users violates it. Like when you get an employee contract that claims your new company owns every idea you ever had. Some people will claim it's just "lawyer stuff" and is somehow okay. It's really not okay.
manquer 2y ago
Mozilla VPN is a service Mozilla provides though. White-labelled Mullvad or not, it a contract between Mozilla and the user and therefore presumably covered by this terms of use. I would say porn is probably in the top 3 if not number 1 use for VPNs
wongarsu 2y ago
So only bookmarks of porn sites if you have Sync active, sending porn tabs to a Firefox instance on another device, browsing porn while on the Mozilla VPN, or using Firefox Relay to sign up to a porn website with an anonymous email address Fine by me since I don't use a Mozilla account, but sounds to me like I shouldn't get a Mozilla account either
- altairprime 2y ago
  Bookmarks and tab URLs don’t contain porn, generally? References are not typically considered explicit, though certainly their language isn’t clear enough about that. If you bookmark a collection of data: / blob: links then that would be the outlier scenario where you shouldn’t use any third-party server-involved bookmark syncing service, as presumably they’ll all either break or ban you once they find you using their bookmark table space for data storage. Good point about Relay.
  - caturopath 2y ago
    It seems like they might be "use[d]...to...[u]pload, download, transmit, display, or grant access to content that includes graphic depictions of sexuality"
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    Bookmarks and tabs hinge on how you interpret "grant access". Do URLs to publicly available websites grant you access, or does the phrase only apply to cookies, passwords, login-urls, etc.? I'm pretty certain it would apply to login-urls, email-confirmation emails, password-reset emails, etc, but for normal URLs I could see it either way
  - Swizec 2y ago
    > Bookmarks and tab URLs don’t contain porn, generally? Do URL stubs of porn titles count as explicitly sexual? They can get pretty raunchy
mmooss 2y ago
> Firefox isn't a Mozilla service. They might clarify that in the agreement. I doubt many people are intimately familiar with Mozilla, Firefox, 'services', etc. to distinguish. I am and I didn't think of it in a brief reading (which is all I have time for).
- cwillu 2y ago
  Then they shouldn't explicitly say “Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy, and you agree that you will not use Firefox to infringe anyone’s rights or violate any applicable laws or regulations.”
tofof 2y ago
It's against ToS to watch R rated movies.
- gpm 2y ago
  Its against the ToS to watch most PG rated movies. It objects to graphic depictions of violence as well, and has no exception for brief graphic depictions of sexuality.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- dkga 2y ago
  But python-rated movies are ok I guess? :)
  - snypher 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - doubled112 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - davidcalloway 2y ago
        [flagged]
        latentsea 2y ago
        [flagged]
        2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
alwa 2y ago
And yet these terms of service—for Firefox—specifically apply the AUP to “your use of Firefox,” no? The entire AUP is prefixed “You may not use any of Mozilla’s services to:”. There’s nothing in the AUP that doesn’t refer to “Mozilla’s services.” When the Firefox TOS explicitly includes this AUP, how could it make sense unless they think of Firefox as one of their services? At the risk of restating the gp’s quote: > Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy, and you agree that you will not use Firefox to infringe anyone’s rights or violate any applicable laws or regulations.
caturopath 2y ago
I think Mozilla VPN is a Mozilla service? It's pretty odd if you aren't allowed to use their VPN to watch or share porn - send unsolicited communications (for example cold emailing an employer about a job) - Deceive or mislead (for example inviting your brother over for a surprise party under false pretenses) - Purchase legal controlled products (for example sending the pharmacy a refill for your Xanax) - Collect email addresses without permission (for example putting together a list of emails to contact public officials)
- ddalex 2y ago
  "If you're doing it you have to give us the data, and btw you can't do it either"
- Grimblewald 2y ago
  look, i'd have similar clauses if I ran such a service. Porn gets very messy very quickly. Revenge porn, porn of generally unconsenting parties etc. are all to common and people who share know it is wrong and so try to use things like vpns to hide. The problem for you as a vpn provider is proving they're doing the wrong thing with your service, so it is much easier to simply say there is a blanket ban and then selectivly enforce. The upside for users in general is such a vpn service tends not to be associated with underbelly behaviour and so isn't blocked from 90% of the web.
  - ragnese 2y ago
    Do hammer manufacturers required you to sign an agreement at the hardware store with a bunch of legalese so they aren't held liable if you use the hammer to beat someone to death? Do alcohol companies get shut down when people drink and kill someone with their car? Did you know that a nonzero percentage of child molesters wear Nike sneakers when they kidnap children? Why doesn't Nike actively try to prevent this?! So why should a VPN provider need to explicitly dissuade its customers from breaking the law with their service? Why should a web browser be afraid of being on the hook when someone breaks the law via the web?
    - 2y ago
blendergeek 2y ago
> Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy The fact that Firefox isn't a "Mozilla Service" seems irrelevant.
BeFlatXIII 2y ago
Imagine using Mozilla Sync to ensure you have the same horse porn on your phone as your laptop out of spite.
devhe4d 2y ago
with this new TOS, Firefox became Mozilla "service"
progval 2y ago
The French translation of the Terms of Use says they apply both to services and products: > Vous ne pouvez pas utiliser les services et produits de Mozilla dans les buts suivants :
immibis 2y ago
But it says "Your use of Firefox must follow [the terms of use for Mozilla services]"

> It's against the Terms of Use to use Firefox to... watch porn? Firefox isn't a Mozilla service. The Mozilla services are things like account sync, or the review tool they use.

laszlokorte 2y ago

So what about synced bookmarks?

pentagrama 2y ago
And synced history.
kg 2y ago
If you're syncing a bookmark that is somehow illegal content, it would come to rest on their servers and they'd potentially be liable for it. (IIRC they encrypt everything at rest, so this is a speculative risk)
- llm_trw 2y ago
  Porn is not illegal, either are the Rambo movies.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  Depictions of sexuality or violence are legal in most places, even if said depictions are graphic
tiltowait 2y ago
I wouldn’t expect the bookmark to run afoul of this clause, since the bookmark isn’t the content. Now it’d be a curious case if the bookmark contained a base64-encoded pornographic image.
- smolder 2y ago
  You seem to be assuming competence on the part of the author. But, as is common with documents that lawyers generate, they probably don't care if it's reasonable or if practically every one of their users violates it. Like when you get an employee contract that claims your new company owns every idea you ever had. Some people will claim it's just "lawyer stuff" and is somehow okay. It's really not okay.

manquer 2y ago

Mozilla VPN is a service Mozilla provides though. White-labelled Mullvad or not, it a contract between Mozilla and the user and therefore presumably covered by this terms of use. I would say porn is probably in the top 3 if not number 1 use for VPNs

wongarsu 2y ago

So only bookmarks of porn sites if you have Sync active, sending porn tabs to a Firefox instance on another device, browsing porn while on the Mozilla VPN, or using Firefox Relay to sign up to a porn website with an anonymous email address Fine by me since I don't use a Mozilla account, but sounds to me like I shouldn't get a Mozilla account either

altairprime 2y ago
Bookmarks and tab URLs don’t contain porn, generally? References are not typically considered explicit, though certainly their language isn’t clear enough about that. If you bookmark a collection of data: / blob: links then that would be the outlier scenario where you shouldn’t use any third-party server-involved bookmark syncing service, as presumably they’ll all either break or ban you once they find you using their bookmark table space for data storage. Good point about Relay.
- caturopath 2y ago
  It seems like they might be "use[d]...to...[u]pload, download, transmit, display, or grant access to content that includes graphic depictions of sexuality"
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- wongarsu 2y ago
  Bookmarks and tabs hinge on how you interpret "grant access". Do URLs to publicly available websites grant you access, or does the phrase only apply to cookies, passwords, login-urls, etc.? I'm pretty certain it would apply to login-urls, email-confirmation emails, password-reset emails, etc, but for normal URLs I could see it either way
- Swizec 2y ago
  > Bookmarks and tab URLs don’t contain porn, generally? Do URL stubs of porn titles count as explicitly sexual? They can get pretty raunchy

mmooss 2y ago

> Firefox isn't a Mozilla service. They might clarify that in the agreement. I doubt many people are intimately familiar with Mozilla, Firefox, 'services', etc. to distinguish. I am and I didn't think of it in a brief reading (which is all I have time for).

cwillu 2y ago
Then they shouldn't explicitly say “Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy, and you agree that you will not use Firefox to infringe anyone’s rights or violate any applicable laws or regulations.”

tofof 2y ago

It's against ToS to watch R rated movies.

gpm 2y ago
Its against the ToS to watch most PG rated movies. It objects to graphic depictions of violence as well, and has no exception for brief graphic depictions of sexuality.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
dkga 2y ago
But python-rated movies are ok I guess? :)
- snypher 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - doubled112 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - davidcalloway 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - latentsea 2y ago
        [flagged]
        2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

alwa 2y ago

And yet these terms of service—for Firefox—specifically apply the AUP to “your use of Firefox,” no? The entire AUP is prefixed “You may not use any of Mozilla’s services to:”. There’s nothing in the AUP that doesn’t refer to “Mozilla’s services.” When the Firefox TOS explicitly includes this AUP, how could it make sense unless they think of Firefox as one of their services? At the risk of restating the gp’s quote: > Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy, and you agree that you will not use Firefox to infringe anyone’s rights or violate any applicable laws or regulations.

caturopath 2y ago

I think Mozilla VPN is a Mozilla service? It's pretty odd if you aren't allowed to use their VPN to watch or share porn - send unsolicited communications (for example cold emailing an employer about a job) - Deceive or mislead (for example inviting your brother over for a surprise party under false pretenses) - Purchase legal controlled products (for example sending the pharmacy a refill for your Xanax) - Collect email addresses without permission (for example putting together a list of emails to contact public officials)

ddalex 2y ago
"If you're doing it you have to give us the data, and btw you can't do it either"
Grimblewald 2y ago
look, i'd have similar clauses if I ran such a service. Porn gets very messy very quickly. Revenge porn, porn of generally unconsenting parties etc. are all to common and people who share know it is wrong and so try to use things like vpns to hide. The problem for you as a vpn provider is proving they're doing the wrong thing with your service, so it is much easier to simply say there is a blanket ban and then selectivly enforce. The upside for users in general is such a vpn service tends not to be associated with underbelly behaviour and so isn't blocked from 90% of the web.
- ragnese 2y ago
  Do hammer manufacturers required you to sign an agreement at the hardware store with a bunch of legalese so they aren't held liable if you use the hammer to beat someone to death? Do alcohol companies get shut down when people drink and kill someone with their car? Did you know that a nonzero percentage of child molesters wear Nike sneakers when they kidnap children? Why doesn't Nike actively try to prevent this?! So why should a VPN provider need to explicitly dissuade its customers from breaking the law with their service? Why should a web browser be afraid of being on the hook when someone breaks the law via the web?
  - 2y ago

blendergeek 2y ago

> Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy The fact that Firefox isn't a "Mozilla Service" seems irrelevant.

BeFlatXIII 2y ago

Imagine using Mozilla Sync to ensure you have the same horse porn on your phone as your laptop out of spite.

devhe4d 2y ago

with this new TOS, Firefox became Mozilla "service"

progval 2y ago

The French translation of the Terms of Use says they apply both to services and products: > Vous ne pouvez pas utiliser les services et produits de Mozilla dans les buts suivants :

immibis 2y ago

But it says "Your use of Firefox must follow [the terms of use for Mozilla services]"