13 ms·

Does iOS have sideloading yet?

129 points by TheDong 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
1970-01-01 2y ago
Also known as the walled garden approach.
throwaway290 2y ago
I'm not in EU and pretty sure I can side load apps, just need Xcode. I installed from source some paid but open source terminal emulator app a couple years ago
- do_not_redeem 2y ago
  Either you have to reinstall every 7 days, or pay $99/year for the privilege. There's another idea for a website: how much does it cost to transfer your own app you compiled yourself over your own USB cable to your own device?
  - throwaway290 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - do_not_redeem 2y ago
      Now that you're actually reading the site, make sure you don't miss this section: https://doesioshavesideloadingyet.com/#what-would-it-mean-for-ios-to-have-sideloading https://doesioshavesideloadingyet.com/#what-would-it-mean-fo...
      - throwaway290 2y ago
        I was sarcastic. I don't need to dig through pages to find out some rando's adjusted definition of a word. "I want X to be free and easy so I will change the definition of X to include those things"
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- _aavaa_ 2y ago
  * just need Xcode and a Mac and the knowledge and willingness to go through the hoops of installing and building and resigning every 7 days.
  - throwaway290 2y ago
    I have the knowledge and who doesn't should be in the walled garden of some sort. Either the one I set up with words ("never install sus apps mom") or Apple forces. Sure Apple has some sus apps on the store too but it's still a million times better than if some random "friend" got her to install actual blatant spyware that siphons her bank info and snoops on our messages
    - _aavaa_ 2y ago
      You’re right. Apple should also start vetting every website we go to in order to ensure this kind of security when we browser the web too. Unless the website pays Apple a yearly fee and a 30% cut it shouldn’t be allowed to sideload itself into our browser. For the sake of security of course.
      - throwaway290 2y ago
        Websites are better sandboxed and even though they are a big vector they themselves are not persistent like apps
        _aavaa_ 2y ago
        macOS apps are also sandboxed but that wasn't deemed safe enough when discussing iOS apps.
        throwaway290 2y ago
        macOS apps are not sandboxed nearly as well as iOS apps, any app can read your clipboard etc etc
em3rgent0rdr 2y ago
Do iOS users care about sideloading yet? No.
- kernal 2y ago
  Give them the option and let’s find out how many really care.
- Wowfunhappy 2y ago
  I'm an iOS user and I care.
  - em3rgent0rdr 2y ago
    Do more than 1% or so of non-hackernews iOS users care about sideloading?
    - do_not_redeem 2y ago
      If they knew every app/subscription they bought would be 30% cheaper I think they would care. But, conveniently for Apple's shareholders, the app store rules forbid developers from providing honest information about those costs to their users.
      - dylan604 2y ago
        As if every developer that releases a side loaded app will lower their prices by 30%. that's total poppycock. The whole point of these devs is to keep that 30% and not give it to Apple. That's some funny shit that you think devs will all lower their prices the consumer sees. Do you have a 2 drink minimum for your set?
        jmholla 2y ago
        > As if every developer that releases a side loaded app will lower their prices by 30%. That is literally already the case for many apps. Many offer a better price outside of the iOS ecosystem. And why are you drawing the goalposts at EVERY developer?
cedws 2y ago
Willing to have my mind changed on this: why should Apple be forced to allow sideloading? A big part of the reason I use Apple products is that they protect not only me, but my family who don't know what the implications of sideloading are. I know that the apps my phone runs have been given the green light by Apple. Is the 30% fee egregious? Maybe, but why shouldn't they be able to charge the fees they want? It's their platform. And for those who don't agree with it, like Epic Games, maybe they can go and develop their own phone? Mandating Apple to allow sideloading is essentially saying "we have no hope of ever developing a competing open platform so we have to use law to force this American company to make us one." Maybe we need less bureaucracy and more building. Send some of that sweet EU funding towards companies building open source tech.
- _aavaa_ 2y ago
  > why shouldn't they be able to charge the fees they want? It's their platform. Wrong. I argue it's my phone. Why shouldn't I be allowed to install what I want on it? Why stop at app for 30% fees? It puts a lot of work into Safari too, why not 30% of every purchase made through safari? > Mandating Apple to allow sideloading is essentially saying ... that it should allow users do on their iOS devices what they can do on their macOS devices.
  - cedws 2y ago
    >Wrong. I argue it's my phone. Why shouldn't I be allowed to install what I want on it? It's your phone that you bought from Apple with full knowledge of the restrictions beforehand. If you wanted a phone with more freedom you could have bought another device and voted with your wallet, but you didn't. >that it should allow users do on their iOS devices what they can do on their macOS devices. Software limitations are not exclusive to Apple. They're everywhere. For instance, manufacturers intentionally kneecap CPUs/GPUs so they can sell the same chips from the same wafer at different price points. Why aren't they targeted too? You bought the whole chip but you don't get to use it.
    - do_not_redeem 2y ago
ks2048 2y ago
If you pay for developer access you can load whatever you want - correct? Yes $100/year is too much, but if you’re paying $1000+ every 2-3 years…
- fingerlocks 2y ago
  This is true. I have dozens of side loaded apps on my iPhone. Another misconception is that the App Store fee is 30%. It’s actually 15% for all but the top 1% revenue generating apps, at which point the fee becomes negotiable in reality.
  - droopyEyelids 2y ago
    What are some good apps you side loaded?
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I have a developper account and I can't load a Kindle app that lets me buy the books. I'd draw the parallel to root access on android: it gives a lot of freedom but is not a replacement for a blessed way for normal users to loads apps from third party stores and no business will bet on users rooting their phones to use their apps.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  Suppose you want to make an app for you and your friends to use. You have 200 friends. Is $20,000 too much? What if you have 1000 friends? What if you just want to post some code on github and let anyone use it who wants to with or without their own modifications, but you don't want them to each have to pay $100?
  - fingerlocks 2y ago
    One developer account can distribute to 100 iPhones without the App Store. You can distribute to an unlimited number of devices if you leave the app in a permanent beta test without full App Store approval. You simply distribute via Test Flight.
akerl_ 2y ago
I don't understand. As this page notes under "What would it mean for iOS to "have" sideloading?", iOS lets you sideload apps. If you pay for a developer account, you can sideload an app and just have to renew the cert every year. It's not clear why this doesn't count as sideloading.
- kop316 2y ago
  > If you pay for a developer account, you can sideload an app and just have to renew the cert every year. My definition of sideloading would be that I am allowed to put a program on a device without any need to consult a 3rd party. A developer account can still be revoked, leaving you without the ability to load an app. With an Android Phone or a Linux Mobile device, I can put an app on without the needing any account, so there's no way to retroactively take that away from me.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
thomasleplus 2y ago
I've built some of my home automation from scratch and I'm using a web app to control most of it from my phone. I'd love to be able to build a native app to see what I can do with Bluetooth etc. But it will never be more than a hobby so I am not going to pay a recurring fee for the privilege.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- nbbaier 2y ago
  > But it will never be more than a hobby so I am not going to pay a recurring fee for the privilege This is what has really stopped me from learning iOS development. > I've built some of my home automation from scratch and I'm using a web app to control most of it from my phone. Do you have anything available/written up about this?
z0mghii 2y ago
Just use krava sign
superkuh 2y ago
The word for this is "normal installation". It is not "sideloading". That's newspeak. "paid-only corporate-approved only" walled gardens as the only means to install software are the weird new thing. Installation is normal and status quo.
jamesy0ung 2y ago
I'm not quite buying the 'security' argument, all recent iPhones and iPads have hardware virtualisation capabilities. Apple can simply run the 'unsafe' applications in a virtual machine, and combine that with the existing protections built into the operating system (sandboxing, sptm) and it would be fine.
panny 2y ago
I have long since stopped being mad about this. I was mad about this in 2007 when iPhone was announced and I heard apps would be web only. I never owned an iPhone despite being one of Apple's biggest fanboys at the time. This policy is why I stopped using Apple products altogether. By 2011 I purchased my last apple product (a used Magic Mouse, I didn't even want to give them the satisfaction of a new purchase). By 2013 I was running Linux on my laptop and I never looked back. Apple went from "We <3 open source!" and "Number one place to run Java!" to "30% of your revenue or else" and "Java is like a heavyweight ball and chain." That really hurt. It felt like a major betrayal. But like every other major change in my life, it turned out for the best. I have a much better understanding of what's going on in my computer since leaving Apple. I have more freedom. I'm not mad anymore. I'm glad they pushed me away.
singularity2001 2y ago
this still makes me angry. I have developed this Lyrics Translator app which translates lyrics on the fly and still can't be distributed.
- ranguna 2y ago
  It can, you just need to pay and go though Apple's screening process. I'm all for sideloading, but saying you can't do stuff that you actually do feels bad. You might want to revise the way you write your complaints to avoid misinterpretation. There's a limit to how much detail you can add to a message until it becomes way to big to read, but I think you stopped too early by skipping "I can't distribute without paying apple a developer license".
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Killing Flash while not allowing side loading wasn’t some security win - it was just a way to seal off the walled garden to rent seek.
roydivision 2y ago
I personally wouldn't go anywhere near sideloading applications that haven't been through Apple's verification processes, or advise anyone in my family to do so. I also think that it is very hard to argue _against_ allowing sideloading. These two opinions can co-exist. Make it optional, make sure the user knows what they are doing, and has acknowledged multiple times that they understand the risks, and that they acknowledge support for any problems at all with the phone will be compromised as a result. Realistically, 99% of iPhone users don't need to sideload, nor understand what it means, and would be worse off doing it on their phones. Yeah yeah Apple the big corp walled garden big evil boo. Yes they make mistakes, yes they make a ton of money. But, their stuff works better than anything else on the market for the vast majority of people, and their decisions are almost always thoroughly thought through in favor of the customer experience, accessibility, security and safety.
- kyriakos 2y ago
  This is exactly what Android is doing. You get enough warnings before loading an APK file, maybe Apple could make it look even scarier to ensure people don't accidentally do it but ultimately it should be up to the iPhone owner's decision.
b0dhimind 2y ago
AltStore or jailbreaking ftw. Functionality + ad-free life > security

129 points by TheDong 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

1970-01-01 2y ago

Also known as the walled garden approach.

throwaway290 2y ago

I'm not in EU and pretty sure I can side load apps, just need Xcode. I installed from source some paid but open source terminal emulator app a couple years ago

do_not_redeem 2y ago
Either you have to reinstall every 7 days, or pay $99/year for the privilege. There's another idea for a website: how much does it cost to transfer your own app you compiled yourself over your own USB cable to your own device?
- throwaway290 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - do_not_redeem 2y ago
    Now that you're actually reading the site, make sure you don't miss this section: https://doesioshavesideloadingyet.com/#what-would-it-mean-for-ios-to-have-sideloading https://doesioshavesideloadingyet.com/#what-would-it-mean-fo...
    - throwaway290 2y ago
      I was sarcastic. I don't need to dig through pages to find out some rando's adjusted definition of a word. "I want X to be free and easy so I will change the definition of X to include those things"
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
_aavaa_ 2y ago
* just need Xcode and a Mac and the knowledge and willingness to go through the hoops of installing and building and resigning every 7 days.
- throwaway290 2y ago
  I have the knowledge and who doesn't should be in the walled garden of some sort. Either the one I set up with words ("never install sus apps mom") or Apple forces. Sure Apple has some sus apps on the store too but it's still a million times better than if some random "friend" got her to install actual blatant spyware that siphons her bank info and snoops on our messages
  - _aavaa_ 2y ago
    You’re right. Apple should also start vetting every website we go to in order to ensure this kind of security when we browser the web too. Unless the website pays Apple a yearly fee and a 30% cut it shouldn’t be allowed to sideload itself into our browser. For the sake of security of course.
    - throwaway290 2y ago
      Websites are better sandboxed and even though they are a big vector they themselves are not persistent like apps
      - _aavaa_ 2y ago
        macOS apps are also sandboxed but that wasn't deemed safe enough when discussing iOS apps.
        throwaway290 2y ago
        macOS apps are not sandboxed nearly as well as iOS apps, any app can read your clipboard etc etc

em3rgent0rdr 2y ago

Do iOS users care about sideloading yet? No.

kernal 2y ago
Give them the option and let’s find out how many really care.
Wowfunhappy 2y ago
I'm an iOS user and I care.
- em3rgent0rdr 2y ago
  Do more than 1% or so of non-hackernews iOS users care about sideloading?
  - do_not_redeem 2y ago
    If they knew every app/subscription they bought would be 30% cheaper I think they would care. But, conveniently for Apple's shareholders, the app store rules forbid developers from providing honest information about those costs to their users.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      As if every developer that releases a side loaded app will lower their prices by 30%. that's total poppycock. The whole point of these devs is to keep that 30% and not give it to Apple. That's some funny shit that you think devs will all lower their prices the consumer sees. Do you have a 2 drink minimum for your set?
      - jmholla 2y ago
        > As if every developer that releases a side loaded app will lower their prices by 30%. That is literally already the case for many apps. Many offer a better price outside of the iOS ecosystem. And why are you drawing the goalposts at EVERY developer?

cedws 2y ago

Willing to have my mind changed on this: why should Apple be forced to allow sideloading? A big part of the reason I use Apple products is that they protect not only me, but my family who don't know what the implications of sideloading are. I know that the apps my phone runs have been given the green light by Apple. Is the 30% fee egregious? Maybe, but why shouldn't they be able to charge the fees they want? It's their platform. And for those who don't agree with it, like Epic Games, maybe they can go and develop their own phone? Mandating Apple to allow sideloading is essentially saying "we have no hope of ever developing a competing open platform so we have to use law to force this American company to make us one." Maybe we need less bureaucracy and more building. Send some of that sweet EU funding towards companies building open source tech.

_aavaa_ 2y ago
> why shouldn't they be able to charge the fees they want? It's their platform. Wrong. I argue it's my phone. Why shouldn't I be allowed to install what I want on it? Why stop at app for 30% fees? It puts a lot of work into Safari too, why not 30% of every purchase made through safari? > Mandating Apple to allow sideloading is essentially saying ... that it should allow users do on their iOS devices what they can do on their macOS devices.
- cedws 2y ago
  >Wrong. I argue it's my phone. Why shouldn't I be allowed to install what I want on it? It's your phone that you bought from Apple with full knowledge of the restrictions beforehand. If you wanted a phone with more freedom you could have bought another device and voted with your wallet, but you didn't. >that it should allow users do on their iOS devices what they can do on their macOS devices. Software limitations are not exclusive to Apple. They're everywhere. For instance, manufacturers intentionally kneecap CPUs/GPUs so they can sell the same chips from the same wafer at different price points. Why aren't they targeted too? You bought the whole chip but you don't get to use it.
  - do_not_redeem 2y ago

ks2048 2y ago

If you pay for developer access you can load whatever you want - correct? Yes $100/year is too much, but if you’re paying $1000+ every 2-3 years…

fingerlocks 2y ago
This is true. I have dozens of side loaded apps on my iPhone. Another misconception is that the App Store fee is 30%. It’s actually 15% for all but the top 1% revenue generating apps, at which point the fee becomes negotiable in reality.
- droopyEyelids 2y ago
  What are some good apps you side loaded?
makeitdouble 2y ago
I have a developper account and I can't load a Kindle app that lets me buy the books. I'd draw the parallel to root access on android: it gives a lot of freedom but is not a replacement for a blessed way for normal users to loads apps from third party stores and no business will bet on users rooting their phones to use their apps.
AnthonyMouse 2y ago
Suppose you want to make an app for you and your friends to use. You have 200 friends. Is $20,000 too much? What if you have 1000 friends? What if you just want to post some code on github and let anyone use it who wants to with or without their own modifications, but you don't want them to each have to pay $100?
- fingerlocks 2y ago
  One developer account can distribute to 100 iPhones without the App Store. You can distribute to an unlimited number of devices if you leave the app in a permanent beta test without full App Store approval. You simply distribute via Test Flight.

akerl_ 2y ago

I don't understand. As this page notes under "What would it mean for iOS to "have" sideloading?", iOS lets you sideload apps. If you pay for a developer account, you can sideload an app and just have to renew the cert every year. It's not clear why this doesn't count as sideloading.

kop316 2y ago
> If you pay for a developer account, you can sideload an app and just have to renew the cert every year. My definition of sideloading would be that I am allowed to put a program on a device without any need to consult a 3rd party. A developer account can still be revoked, leaving you without the ability to load an app. With an Android Phone or a Linux Mobile device, I can put an app on without the needing any account, so there's no way to retroactively take that away from me.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

thomasleplus 2y ago

I've built some of my home automation from scratch and I'm using a web app to control most of it from my phone. I'd love to be able to build a native app to see what I can do with Bluetooth etc. But it will never be more than a hobby so I am not going to pay a recurring fee for the privilege.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nbbaier 2y ago
> But it will never be more than a hobby so I am not going to pay a recurring fee for the privilege This is what has really stopped me from learning iOS development. > I've built some of my home automation from scratch and I'm using a web app to control most of it from my phone. Do you have anything available/written up about this?

z0mghii 2y ago

Just use krava sign

superkuh 2y ago

The word for this is "normal installation". It is not "sideloading". That's newspeak. "paid-only corporate-approved only" walled gardens as the only means to install software are the weird new thing. Installation is normal and status quo.

jamesy0ung 2y ago

I'm not quite buying the 'security' argument, all recent iPhones and iPads have hardware virtualisation capabilities. Apple can simply run the 'unsafe' applications in a virtual machine, and combine that with the existing protections built into the operating system (sandboxing, sptm) and it would be fine.

panny 2y ago

I have long since stopped being mad about this. I was mad about this in 2007 when iPhone was announced and I heard apps would be web only. I never owned an iPhone despite being one of Apple's biggest fanboys at the time. This policy is why I stopped using Apple products altogether. By 2011 I purchased my last apple product (a used Magic Mouse, I didn't even want to give them the satisfaction of a new purchase). By 2013 I was running Linux on my laptop and I never looked back. Apple went from "We <3 open source!" and "Number one place to run Java!" to "30% of your revenue or else" and "Java is like a heavyweight ball and chain." That really hurt. It felt like a major betrayal. But like every other major change in my life, it turned out for the best. I have a much better understanding of what's going on in my computer since leaving Apple. I have more freedom. I'm not mad anymore. I'm glad they pushed me away.

singularity2001 2y ago

this still makes me angry. I have developed this Lyrics Translator app which translates lyrics on the fly and still can't be distributed.

ranguna 2y ago
It can, you just need to pay and go though Apple's screening process. I'm all for sideloading, but saying you can't do stuff that you actually do feels bad. You might want to revise the way you write your complaints to avoid misinterpretation. There's a limit to how much detail you can add to a message until it becomes way to big to read, but I think you stopped too early by skipping "I can't distribute without paying apple a developer license".

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

Killing Flash while not allowing side loading wasn’t some security win - it was just a way to seal off the walled garden to rent seek.

roydivision 2y ago

I personally wouldn't go anywhere near sideloading applications that haven't been through Apple's verification processes, or advise anyone in my family to do so. I also think that it is very hard to argue _against_ allowing sideloading. These two opinions can co-exist. Make it optional, make sure the user knows what they are doing, and has acknowledged multiple times that they understand the risks, and that they acknowledge support for any problems at all with the phone will be compromised as a result. Realistically, 99% of iPhone users don't need to sideload, nor understand what it means, and would be worse off doing it on their phones. Yeah yeah Apple the big corp walled garden big evil boo. Yes they make mistakes, yes they make a ton of money. But, their stuff works better than anything else on the market for the vast majority of people, and their decisions are almost always thoroughly thought through in favor of the customer experience, accessibility, security and safety.

kyriakos 2y ago
This is exactly what Android is doing. You get enough warnings before loading an APK file, maybe Apple could make it look even scarier to ensure people don't accidentally do it but ultimately it should be up to the iPhone owner's decision.

b0dhimind 2y ago

AltStore or jailbreaking ftw. Functionality + ad-free life > security