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Ah, those law abiding thieves will surely stop procuring themselves those devices now that they are illegal.

FabHK 2y ago
It will reduce supply, but it will also make it easier to prosecute those that have these devices. I frankly don't understand the sentiment. Should we not outlaw murder because "ha, surely criminals won't murder anymore now"?
- mirzap 2y ago
  Stealing is already outlawed, so banning the devices is not comparable to murder. What would be comparable if the government decided to ban knives and hammers? Those "devices" are used to commit murders, and anyone possessing them could be prosecuted for the crime of murder.
  - Mashimo 2y ago
    Btw, plenty of countries have banned certain knifes. And also zones where all kinds of knifes are forbidden.
- parineum 2y ago
  Murder and stealing are the the things that are outlawed already. The equivalent argument would be banning knives so people don't commit murder.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    The equivalent argument would be banning something that makes murder really really easy without much training or willpower. Killing with a knife is hard, and just not very accessible (if you doubt me, try going hunting for deer with a knife instead of a rifle). The equivalent would be some device that made killing really easy, eg something that supported point and shoot. Like, if someone invented a ray gun that you could just point at people and they would die, that would banned really quickly even by the most libertarian governments (because society doesn’t survive very long with them around, or society doesn’t ban them and is just replaced by another society that does). Lock picks at least take some skill, they aren’t super accessible. But an RF repeater seems to be fairly accessible according to how quickly it spread (although most modern fobs stop transmitting when stationary, so these are only effective for people who carry fobs in their pockets all the time).
    - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
      Like power tools ? They make opening a locked doors very easy. Or regular non ray guns ? They make killing super easy. And you definitly don't need those for most people. But oil as well, I mean it makes arson so easy and you can burn entire houses with people inside.
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        You need to think about accessibility more! All of your other techniques just aren't that effective, which is why they aren't used for much murder very much. Burning a school down vs a gun to rack up mass casualties? The fire alarm would go off and that is that. The same with using a power tool like a drill to kill someone, you can do it if you try really hard, but your chances of success aren't very high. Anything that makes the deed "easy" is simply going to make it easier to perform and hence performed more often. It isn't rocket science, and it isn't binary! Yes, you can kill someone with your bare hands, or use an ice pick, or whatever, but not easily, like you could with a gun.
- vbezhenar 2y ago
  We should not outlaw tools. Lock picks are fun and some ordinary people have a hobby of lock picking. You shouldn't go to jail because you possess a lock pick. Electronic devices are the same. It's dangerously close to the "thought crime". In the IT world that would mean going to jail if you have John the Ripper installed.
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  Then you should outlaw knife, all cleaning chemical, hammers, amateur radio... But not guns. They are fine.
- DoingIsLearning 2y ago
  The sentiment is very much strongly warranted. It derives from 1) an inversion of the legal onus, and 2) a dangerous slippery slope in civil liberty. Car manufacturers have been repeatedly caught with their pants down on the multiple security flaws in keyless ignition systems. These are multi-million dollar businesses choosing not do spend money on recalls or R&D to mitigate this. These corporations are effectively externalizing private costs with public over-reaching legislation and public law enforcement. Secondly, and much more gravely, the criminalizing with 'unlimited fine', as most laws, will rely on non-technical people's interpretation. In practice this means (as prior history shows with regards to legislation and tech), that the step between banning Bulgarian RF repeater/jammers for key fobs, and charging a 16 year old with a several thousands Pounds fine just for using an SDR dongle becomes something very real. For anyone with experience past or present in autocratic states it is also an obvious reduction of civil liberties in (what should be) a democratic society.

It will reduce supply, but it will also make it easier to prosecute those that have these devices. I frankly don't understand the sentiment. Should we not outlaw murder because "ha, surely criminals won't murder anymore now"?

mirzap 2y ago
Stealing is already outlawed, so banning the devices is not comparable to murder. What would be comparable if the government decided to ban knives and hammers? Those "devices" are used to commit murders, and anyone possessing them could be prosecuted for the crime of murder.
- Mashimo 2y ago
  Btw, plenty of countries have banned certain knifes. And also zones where all kinds of knifes are forbidden.
parineum 2y ago
Murder and stealing are the the things that are outlawed already. The equivalent argument would be banning knives so people don't commit murder.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  The equivalent argument would be banning something that makes murder really really easy without much training or willpower. Killing with a knife is hard, and just not very accessible (if you doubt me, try going hunting for deer with a knife instead of a rifle). The equivalent would be some device that made killing really easy, eg something that supported point and shoot. Like, if someone invented a ray gun that you could just point at people and they would die, that would banned really quickly even by the most libertarian governments (because society doesn’t survive very long with them around, or society doesn’t ban them and is just replaced by another society that does). Lock picks at least take some skill, they aren’t super accessible. But an RF repeater seems to be fairly accessible according to how quickly it spread (although most modern fobs stop transmitting when stationary, so these are only effective for people who carry fobs in their pockets all the time).
  - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
    Like power tools ? They make opening a locked doors very easy. Or regular non ray guns ? They make killing super easy. And you definitly don't need those for most people. But oil as well, I mean it makes arson so easy and you can burn entire houses with people inside.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      You need to think about accessibility more! All of your other techniques just aren't that effective, which is why they aren't used for much murder very much. Burning a school down vs a gun to rack up mass casualties? The fire alarm would go off and that is that. The same with using a power tool like a drill to kill someone, you can do it if you try really hard, but your chances of success aren't very high. Anything that makes the deed "easy" is simply going to make it easier to perform and hence performed more often. It isn't rocket science, and it isn't binary! Yes, you can kill someone with your bare hands, or use an ice pick, or whatever, but not easily, like you could with a gun.
vbezhenar 2y ago
We should not outlaw tools. Lock picks are fun and some ordinary people have a hobby of lock picking. You shouldn't go to jail because you possess a lock pick. Electronic devices are the same. It's dangerously close to the "thought crime". In the IT world that would mean going to jail if you have John the Ripper installed.
BiteCode_dev 2y ago
Then you should outlaw knife, all cleaning chemical, hammers, amateur radio... But not guns. They are fine.
DoingIsLearning 2y ago
The sentiment is very much strongly warranted. It derives from 1) an inversion of the legal onus, and 2) a dangerous slippery slope in civil liberty. Car manufacturers have been repeatedly caught with their pants down on the multiple security flaws in keyless ignition systems. These are multi-million dollar businesses choosing not do spend money on recalls or R&D to mitigate this. These corporations are effectively externalizing private costs with public over-reaching legislation and public law enforcement. Secondly, and much more gravely, the criminalizing with 'unlimited fine', as most laws, will rely on non-technical people's interpretation. In practice this means (as prior history shows with regards to legislation and tech), that the step between banning Bulgarian RF repeater/jammers for key fobs, and charging a 16 year old with a several thousands Pounds fine just for using an SDR dongle becomes something very real. For anyone with experience past or present in autocratic states it is also an obvious reduction of civil liberties in (what should be) a democratic society.