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It's still a modular computer, just not a laptop. It's more like if Tesla made an electric scooter
by te-x 2y ago
It's still a modular computer, just not a laptop. It's more like if Tesla made an electric scooter
- abound 2y agoThe soldered RAM is surprising for Framework, and doubly surprising for being so in a form-factor that usually doesn't have soldered RAM. Similar to what other commenters have expressed, it just seems like they shouldn't have built this product if they couldn't figure out the soldered RAM bit.
- piskov 2y agoThey went for local LLM route and for that high-bandwidth memory is a must. Consider it a low-price alternative to mac mini or nvidia’s box. This can also be chained though not as effectively as macs for example (those have thunderbolt for interconnect)
- awiesenhofer 2y ago> low-price alternative to mac mini This starts at 1099$ per the article, so the mac mini is the low-price alternative here.
- MindSpunk 2y agoIf you can find me a Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM I'd love to see it.
- zamadatix 2y agohttps://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-chip-with-10-core-cpu-and-10-core-gpu-16gb-memory-256gb https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-chip-wi... Select 32 It's not exactly an out of the park win though as it's only $100-$200 cheaper and it trends poorly the farther from comparing base models you go (particularly after 64 GB, for which you need to leave the Mini family for the Studio). By the time you get to 128 GB, which you'd want for the 70B class AI models, you end up back at the original statement.
- MindSpunk 2y agoHuh. Ate my words then. I briefly checked Apple's page and didn't see them. However those are the base M4 chip and not the M4 Pro. You need the M4 Pro to get competitive in GPU compute numbers for a more like to like comparison. The M4 Pro mini comes out at $1800 with the 48GB option, or $2000 for 64GB. For the same price the Framework machine gets you 128GB.
- zamadatix 2y agoI think you're probably right comparing to the M4 Pro would make more sense but keep in mind you don't really need much compute, it's just that the M4 Pro has memory bandwidth more similar to the AI Max 395+ while the "normal" M4 doesn't. Every large AI model is heavy memory bandwidth constrained to the point my 9800X3D (with the extra L3 cache) and 128 GB/s memory attached is only 60% utilized running a 32 GB model in CPU only mode (no NPU, iGPU, or GPU offload enabled). Really small AI models can start to be compute bound but, at that point, you don't really need the 32 GB of memory anymore and probably just want a normal GPU.
- TiredOfLife 2y agoThe max config with 128gb ram is half the price of mac and 8tb ssd is 800 and not 2000
- kllrnohj 2y agoThis starts with 32GB of RAM, so no the mac mini isn't the low priced alternative at that point. Also fully spec'd at 128gb is $2000, which only gets you a 64gb mac mini
- danielEM 2y agoThat is not a framework choice, that is an AMD architecture that doesn't use regular RAM modules as it requires wider data bus
- abdullahkhalids 2y agoI don't know anything about RAMs or their bus size. Is this something that will be "fixed" in the future, idk, with DDR6? Meaning we can have replacable RAM with such bus.
- SSLy 2y agoThere isn't any standard to put that kind of RAM on DIMM-like slots.
- TheAmazingRace 2y agoHonestly... I wonder why they didn't consider CAMM2? The bandwidth and signal integrity rivals that of soldiered memory. They could have had the best of both worlds, really.
- rangestransform 2y agoAFAIK you would need 4 CAMM modules for that kind of bandwidth, good luck stuffing that onto a board at all, let alone for a reasonable price
- anticensor 2y agoCAMM, unlike DIMM, is designed to be amenable to stacking from the get go.
- chipsa 2y agoA single LPCAMM2 module is supposed to be all the RAM for a laptop, so it’s 128 bit wide. You’d need two LPCAMM for this, not four. And they are currently available in 32G and 64G varieties ($180/$330). So they aren’t absurdly priced, if they were in stock.
- rokweom 2y agoApparently this is due to signal integrity. AMD says swappable RAM is not possible. Source: LinusTechTips video.
- braiamp 2y agoYeah, in LTT video they are talking with the CEO https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?t=447 https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?t=447
- AshamedCaptain 2y agoThe non-MAX Ryzen laptops also announced today actually use socketed RAM. I guess they'd claim it is only the MAX AMD procs which force soldered RAM, but since they could as well have used a non-MAX chip (and correspondingly reduce the price) this just shows how much of this is an arbitrary, and therefore questionable, decision from Framework rather than any restriction AMD sets.
- SSLy 2y agoYes, and they have less BW than this solution.
- sliken 2y agoYes, those are the ones with a 128 bit memory bus that can reuse designs from previous generations. Nearly every laptop and desktop has has 128 bit memory for the last few decades, the strix halo is the first with 256 bit wide x86 targeted at tablets, laptops, and SFFs. Much like the m1/m2/m4 pro. The M3 pro for some reason decided on 192 bits wide.
- MostlyStable 2y agoI saw that, and I'm curious if that's a death-knell for LPCAMM ram. My understanding was that the entire point of that new standard was to allow for the higher ram speeds and lower latencies etc that you would normally get with soldered ram, but in a modular, swappable package. If LPCAMM already can't keep up with requirements when it is barely even out, then my guess is it won't fare well going forward. So 1 of 2 things is probably true: AMD is not being completely truthful with their statements that LPCAMM wasn't able to work (maybe it was just more difficult/complicated than they were willing to do, but it could work or latency/speed requirements have already outpaced what LPCAMM can provide and soldered ram is the future. I really hope it's the former, but it wouldn't be the first time something like the second has occurred. Apparently cache also used to be a separate, swappable component before it became integrated into the die. RAM might end up going the same way.
- aitchnyu 2y agoApparently LPCAMM2 (brand new upgradable RAM) modules wont support 256 bits width soon.