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It is a weird product for the Framework brand. The pitch for the Framework laptop is that it is repairable/upgradable/modular. Something that is uncommon for l

• te-x 2y ago
  It's still a modular computer, just not a laptop. It's more like if Tesla made an electric scooter
  • abound 2y ago
    The soldered RAM is surprising for Framework, and doubly surprising for being so in a form-factor that usually doesn't have soldered RAM. Similar to what other commenters have expressed, it just seems like they shouldn't have built this product if they couldn't figure out the soldered RAM bit.
    • piskov 2y ago
      They went for local LLM route and for that high-bandwidth memory is a must. Consider it a low-price alternative to mac mini or nvidia’s box. This can also be chained though not as effectively as macs for example (those have thunderbolt for interconnect)
      • awiesenhofer 2y ago
        > low-price alternative to mac mini This starts at 1099$ per the article, so the mac mini is the low-price alternative here.
        • MindSpunk 2y ago
          If you can find me a Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM I'd love to see it.
          • zamadatix 2y ago
            https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-chip-with-10-core-cpu-and-10-core-gpu-16gb-memory-256gb https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m4-chip-wi... Select 32 It's not exactly an out of the park win though as it's only $100-$200 cheaper and it trends poorly the farther from comparing base models you go (particularly after 64 GB, for which you need to leave the Mini family for the Studio). By the time you get to 128 GB, which you'd want for the 70B class AI models, you end up back at the original statement.
            • MindSpunk 2y ago
              Huh. Ate my words then. I briefly checked Apple's page and didn't see them. However those are the base M4 chip and not the M4 Pro. You need the M4 Pro to get competitive in GPU compute numbers for a more like to like comparison. The M4 Pro mini comes out at $1800 with the 48GB option, or $2000 for 64GB. For the same price the Framework machine gets you 128GB.
              • zamadatix 2y ago
                I think you're probably right comparing to the M4 Pro would make more sense but keep in mind you don't really need much compute, it's just that the M4 Pro has memory bandwidth more similar to the AI Max 395+ while the "normal" M4 doesn't. Every large AI model is heavy memory bandwidth constrained to the point my 9800X3D (with the extra L3 cache) and 128 GB/s memory attached is only 60% utilized running a 32 GB model in CPU only mode (no NPU, iGPU, or GPU offload enabled). Really small AI models can start to be compute bound but, at that point, you don't really need the 32 GB of memory anymore and probably just want a normal GPU.
        • TiredOfLife 2y ago
          The max config with 128gb ram is half the price of mac and 8tb ssd is 800 and not 2000
    • danielEM 2y ago
      That is not a framework choice, that is an AMD architecture that doesn't use regular RAM modules as it requires wider data bus
      • abdullahkhalids 2y ago
        I don't know anything about RAMs or their bus size. Is this something that will be "fixed" in the future, idk, with DDR6? Meaning we can have replacable RAM with such bus.
        • SSLy 2y ago
          There isn't any standard to put that kind of RAM on DIMM-like slots.
          • TheAmazingRace 2y ago
            Honestly... I wonder why they didn't consider CAMM2? The bandwidth and signal integrity rivals that of soldiered memory. They could have had the best of both worlds, really.
            • rangestransform 2y ago
              AFAIK you would need 4 CAMM modules for that kind of bandwidth, good luck stuffing that onto a board at all, let alone for a reasonable price
              • anticensor 2y ago
                CAMM, unlike DIMM, is designed to be amenable to stacking from the get go.
              • chipsa 2y ago
                A single LPCAMM2 module is supposed to be all the RAM for a laptop, so it’s 128 bit wide. You’d need two LPCAMM for this, not four. And they are currently available in 32G and 64G varieties ($180/$330). So they aren’t absurdly priced, if they were in stock.
    • rokweom 2y ago
      Apparently this is due to signal integrity. AMD says swappable RAM is not possible. Source: LinusTechTips video.
      • braiamp 2y ago
        Yeah, in LTT video they are talking with the CEO https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?t=447 https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?t=447
      • AshamedCaptain 2y ago
        The non-MAX Ryzen laptops also announced today actually use socketed RAM. I guess they'd claim it is only the MAX AMD procs which force soldered RAM, but since they could as well have used a non-MAX chip (and correspondingly reduce the price) this just shows how much of this is an arbitrary, and therefore questionable, decision from Framework rather than any restriction AMD sets.
        • SSLy 2y ago
          Yes, and they have less BW than this solution.
        • sliken 2y ago
          Yes, those are the ones with a 128 bit memory bus that can reuse designs from previous generations. Nearly every laptop and desktop has has 128 bit memory for the last few decades, the strix halo is the first with 256 bit wide x86 targeted at tablets, laptops, and SFFs. Much like the m1/m2/m4 pro. The M3 pro for some reason decided on 192 bits wide.
      • MostlyStable 2y ago
        I saw that, and I'm curious if that's a death-knell for LPCAMM ram. My understanding was that the entire point of that new standard was to allow for the higher ram speeds and lower latencies etc that you would normally get with soldered ram, but in a modular, swappable package. If LPCAMM already can't keep up with requirements when it is barely even out, then my guess is it won't fare well going forward. So 1 of 2 things is probably true: AMD is not being completely truthful with their statements that LPCAMM wasn't able to work (maybe it was just more difficult/complicated than they were willing to do, but it could work or latency/speed requirements have already outpaced what LPCAMM can provide and soldered ram is the future. I really hope it's the former, but it wouldn't be the first time something like the second has occurred. Apparently cache also used to be a separate, swappable component before it became integrated into the die. RAM might end up going the same way.
    • aitchnyu 2y ago
      Apparently LPCAMM2 (brand new upgradable RAM) modules wont support 256 bits width soon.
• simpaticoder 2y ago
  I agree. I was an early adopter and have a Framework 13 11th gen intel (batch 4) and have been generally happy with it. Except the keyboard stopped working and I had to replace it, ~100 tiny screws later (and one stripped screw). And the battery drains fast (~24 hours) when suspended. And except that it won't turn on anymore without plugging into a particular USB-C port with a "dumb" USB cable (the basic 5V 900mA type) even with a full battery charge. And there hasn't been a BIOS update for this mainboard since Sep 2022. I understand that a new company with a new product is going to have issues. But I would have strongly preferred they spent the time and effort (and money) fixing or replacing these 1st gen mainboards rather than branching out into a very non-Framework area like desktop gaming PCs.
  • rstat1 2y ago
    I had that issue on my batch 5 11th gen. There's an issue with the rechargeable CMOS battery they included (that isn't present on the later 12th and 13th gen) that when it stops taking a charge your laptop stops turning on unless you do some arcane process to reset it. They provide a "repair" kit that's basically a dummy CMOS battery that hooks in to the normal power system that prevents the issue from occurring again. Also just FYI, there was a BIOS update in June of last year (3.20).
    • simpaticoder 2y ago
      >There's an issue with the rechargeable CMOS battery I am aware of the issue as described in [1] and the fix in [2]. However, my support request has gone unanswered for a year, as was my second support request. In addition, I have doubts as to whether this fix (which requires soldering!) will work. I was not aware of an updated BIOS [3], foolishly believing the output of 'fwupdmgr' after following the instructions in [4]. It looks like I'll need to find a USB stick and update via EFI shell. Thanks for the tip! But still, I think they should do more for early customers before expanding out well beyond their core market! 1 - https://framework.kustomer.help/my-laptop-is-not-powering-on-ryQLXvQkt https://framework.kustomer.help/my-laptop-is-not-powering-on... 2 - https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+11th+Gen+Intel%C2%AE+Core%E2%84%A2/203 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+... 3 - https://community.frame.work/t/11th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-20-release-and-driver-bundle-update/53613 https://community.frame.work/t/11th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-20... 4 - https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/updating-bios-on-linux-Hk4pROTn https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/updating-bios-on-linu...
• p1necone 2y ago
  I agree. There's a lot of options for very small PC cases that will fit a dedicated GPU and regular itx components (I'm running a midori 5L system, it's great, don't ignore the instruction to use loctite on the bolts you will have pain) - I don't think the desktop market needs this the same way the laptop market needed the earlier framework devices.
• yellow_lead 2y ago
  I feel like the target audience would build (or buy used/build used) something cheaper that's more powerful. The form factor isn't small enough to make this worth it IMO
• tomnipotent 2y ago
  I know very few people that do anything other than upgrade their GPU or SSD during the entire lifespan of their computer. Maybe when I was younger I'd upgrade the RAM after saving up, but am fortunate enough now to be able to buy what I want up front. This product is for me. A few years ago I tried to repurpose a desktop with a bad motherboard, but it was impossible to find a replacement for the 7-year-old CPU. eBay prices were more than the original MSRP, and at that point it was cheaper to buy new parts for the oldest still-selling generation. I'm already replacing everything except the SSD and GPU with every upgrade anyway, now it will just be the SSD but I can keep the case.
  • keyringlight 2y ago
    Something I've noticed over the years is that a lot of PC enthusiast discussion seems to be self-selecting for those most likely to chase the latest hardware, which affects how they think and talk about future proofing or upgrade ability. The challenge with x86 PC is that because the platform is so flexible it casts the widest net over huge amounts of use cases and circumstances. The example that comes to mind is criticism over intel vs AMD chipsets/sockets with longer compatibility, but it comes down to what your demands are plus where you buy in the cycle of other components (DDR4 vs DDR5) and needed support. There are trade-offs everywhere.
    • throwup238 2y ago
      Definitely. My last self built desktop ($8k total in 2012-ish) lasted a decade under heavy use like M/ECAD and compiling stuff, with only a midlife upgrade from SSD to NVME. When you buy top of the line cutting edge parts that are binned for overclocking, they remain competitive for a very long time, especially now that we’ve hit diminishing returns. Now all you need to make sure is that it’s got enough PCIe lanes if going to a performance build. I only retired the desktop because of how much power it burns and our electricity rates going up here in SoCal. That 64gb OCed 3200 (maybe 3500) mHz DDR3 RAM for example, kept up with DDR4 speeds for most of that decade when I benchmarked every few years. Intel extreme processor, workstation motherboard, and GTX Titans also kept chugging along. I’ve been looking at some of the higher end DDR5 coming down the pipeline and those are also likely to be on the higher end of performance for a decade while the consumer parts catch up. The only problem is that the workstation motherboard market seems to have disappeared. (This was a work computer for my consulting)
• cgcrob 2y ago
  I don’t think I’ve upgraded a desktop machine for about 10 years. I usually buy a 1-3 year old corporate desktop and use it for 2-4 years, buy another one and throw the old one on eBay. I’m on a 10500 based Lenovo thing at the moment. My needs are not immense though.
• doctorpangloss 2y ago
  Stories sell.
• sliken 2y ago
  SFFs and laptops share many parts, and of course the new mini desktop has 2 of the framework compatible bays for your choice of usb/network/audio that should work today and be able to be upgraded later. I don't do much computing on the move, that my phone can't handle. But a desktop (that generally lasts twice as long as a laptop and costs half as much) is pretty interesting to me. Also keep in mind that framework sold a small chassis compatible with their laptop boards, so if you upgrade your laptop main board you could rehost the old one in a small desktop chassis. Seems like a natural expansion for framework and might well get them more customers and more sales per customer.
• DeathArrow 2y ago
  It seems that Framework desktop is less modular than regular desktops.
  • joseda-hg 2y ago
    Full size sure, but we already have that, so it doesn't matter In SFF land?, maybe, but that's already a lot closer to laptops, which is where I expect this to loop back into regular Framework lineup
• sureIy 2y ago
  > I never changed it, but upgrade to upgrade, it is a completely different machine than it once was (it started off as a 486!) Nit: You can believe that story, but there's zero chance that at some point you didn't upgrade the case, motherboard, CPU and RAM possibly at the same time. If you replace 90% of what makes a computer, does it make sense to say you "never changed" it? At what point do you consider it "changed"? This Framework desktop also lets you swap motherboard, CPU and RAM in one go, why does it not fit your definition?
  • wolfric 2y ago
    Hence The Ship of Theseus comment
    • bheadmaster 2y ago
      The difference is that The Ship of Theseus had all its parts replaced one by one, in a long period of time. If you replace 90% of the ship at the same time (RAM, CPU and Motherboard), then the analogy breaks down.
      • WXLCKNO 2y ago
        It's a perfectly understandable analogy unless you nitpick for no reason.
        • sureIy 2y ago
          If you kept the sails and rebuilt the boat around them, does it make sense to say it's the same boat? That's why I said "you can believe your story" while I pointed out it's a very unlikely one.
        • bheadmaster 2y ago
          I didn't say it's not understandable, just that it breaks down - i.e. doesn't apply anymore. The point of an analogy is to point out how our intuition tells us it's the same boat, despite having no parts in common with the initial boat. As other comment mentioned, if you keep the sails and rebuild a new boat around it, no person in their right mind would feel that it's the same boat. It's very clearly a new boat, and the analogy breaks down.
• bloodyplonker22 2y ago
  The reason is simple. They're making it for the same reason that Porsche started making SUVs.
• panick21_ 2y ago
  They seem to be partnering with AMD and AMD has this new nice chip, they couldn't get it into a laptop, so they made a quick desktop. It seems more like a way to launch a mini-desktop. They can later offer alternative mainboards that fit in that desktop (or anyother). Yes, its a strange first product, but I think its mostly because they wanted to be early with releasing this AMD chip. Seems to me AMD was looking for partners to push this chip out for 'AI'.
• remify 2y ago
  I think it's an offering for companies that would like to get onboard with Framework but would prefer to only have one contract / contact for their laptops and desktops.