5 ms·

https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY The ceo kind of explains why in this video. In essence it seems to be a limitation of the chip from A

by rdedev 2y ago

https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY The ceo kind of explains why in this video. In essence it seems to be a limitation of the chip from AMD

fragmede 2y ago
So don't make it then? If a particular vendor's product isn't in line with the company's mission, the CEO is the one to make the call to proceed with manufacturing. edit: it's not for me and I can totally just not buy one, but if one identified with their original mission and sees this as betrayal of that, it'd be hard to justify getting a framework laptop when it's their turn to upgrade.
- TheRealPomax 2y ago
  If you're not the audience, you're not the audience. Don't buy it. But a whole bunch of folks will be interested in this, and it lets framework dip their toes in the "not laptops" market without going bankrupt over it.
- sdwr 2y ago
  I think their ethos is more about being user- and developer- friendly. RAM upgrades at reasonable prices, being able to buy the main board sans case, and supporting multiple OSes all point in that direction, without strictly being modular
  - CharlesW 2y ago
    > RAM upgrades at reasonable prices… The RAM is not upgradable.
    - hug 2y ago
      Parent clearly means upgrade at time-of-purchase. FTA: > Because the memory is non-upgradeable, we’re being deliberate in making memory pricing more reasonable than you might find with other brands.
      - CharlesW 2y ago
        The bit you quoted back to me says, "the RAM is non-upgradable", which is what I said. Your interpretation (that the parent commenter misspoke) is more generous, though, so let's go with that.
  - starkparker 2y ago
    "Details of Framework’s Environmental Ethos and Long Term Mission": https://knowledgebase.frame.work/details-of-framework-s-environmental-ethos-and-long-term-mission-B162Wp40O https://knowledgebase.frame.work/details-of-framework-s-envi... > July 7 2022 3:26pm > Framework’s mission is to fix consumer electronics - and we are doing that by respecting you and the planet. We have put this vision into everything we do by providing you with amazing products that are meant to last as long as possible by letting you upgrade and modify them over that lifetime to support your specific needs. > Our mission is to reduce the amount of waste that is generated and energy that is expended and reduce our overall consumer electronics footprint, while providing a better product than you can get anywhere else. This includes using post-consumer-recycled aluminum and plastic in our products as well as recycled and recyclable packaging. > We have just started this journey, and we are continually looking for ways to reduce our footprint and be even healthier for the environment. We’re happy to get ideas and suggestions on how we can do this. The Framework Community is a great place to share this.
- Spivak 2y ago
  They saw an underserved niche and went for it. Based on the wait time for their site seems to be working for them.
- sangnoir 2y ago
  > So don't make it then? You presume to have internalized Framework's core-values more than the founder/CEO? The box is not my cup of tea,but they are free to experiment.
  - mhitza 2y ago
    > You presume to have internalized Framework's core-values more than the founder/CEO? His reaction in the livestream was along these lines when he semi-jokingly said "I'm surprised no one from the audience threw something at me" At a larger event I would have kind of expected a "boo", but it seemed like a rather small gathering where most people knew each other. Unlike the live 12k Youtube chat, that was very surprised and disappointed at times.
    - mohsen1 2y ago
      You can't argue with laws of physics at some point. Every nanometer counts at those frequencies. You can't put your RAM too far at some point in which a physical socket will be a deal breaker. Also, Framework doesn't need to make something for you to "build a PC". PCs are extremely modular already. They are solving a different problem here.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    I presume that my core values, which I might know just a teeny tiny bit, align with what the corporation has stated as their values. But at the end of the day, the"core values" of a corporation are just some words on a webpage on the journey to more profit and I mean, hey, I like money too, so it's not like I can really fault them for pivoting.
    - tomnipotent 2y ago
      This is literally the same product they've been selling with just one more component soldered on (memory). I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it a "pivot".
      - 2y ago
- preisschild 2y ago
  I disagree. Modularity is good, but if there are real technical reasons why it is not possible (like in thise case), then it could be a worthwile compromise.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    that's a fair point! soldered on ram currently has more performance than socketed. it's definitely a compromise and I'm being an uncompromising motherfucker. It's not my company though and I'm just some rando on the Internet expressing an opinion.
- micromacrofoot 2y ago
  It's not for you then FWIW I find the small form factor combined with the CPU and high-powered integrated GPU very appealing. I don't think I could build something with this form factor using off the shelf parts (someone correct me if I'm wrong)... it would end up needing a larger dedicated GPU. I suspect their competition isn't actually people who build their own PCs, but people in the market for Mac Pros — they have a number of benefits over Apple here.
- UncleOxidant 2y ago
  They just got me as a new customer with this AI miniPC. It's the first Framework product I've bought.
  - baobabKoodaa 2y ago
    I'm thinking of buying one as well, and I never would've purchased any of their other products. But I have to agree with people who say this goes against Framework's mission.
- elxr 2y ago
  Compared to the most popular alternative (mac mini / mac studio), it's still way more inline with the framework mission. You can still buy the motherboard version and use your own case and PSU. That's better than not just the macs, but also many other mini PCs. And considering the chip, it's still the most modular way to buy a Ryzen 395 for the foreseeable future.
yellow_lead 2y ago
From 7:40~ "The signal integrity doesn't work out." I don't understand, but maybe someone else could explain.
- kaladin-jasnah 2y ago
  I think there's like electromagnetic interference if signals across various buses in computers are too close together, making it more likely that the signals get corrupted or noisy, which could increase latency for trying to clean the signal or make it impossible to get any data of value. Not an engineer though so please correct me. I only have a vague understanding of this.
  - nomel 2y ago
    > which could increase latency for trying to clean the signal There's none of that here. That's a concept for uncontrolled interfaces. This is a memory interface, where you either have a good signal or a flawed design. Things like ECC do exist, but those are to detect bit corruption in the memory, but a flawless communication between is still required.
- smarx007 2y ago
  See https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/29141/interconnect-capacitance-and-speed-of-data-transmission https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/29141/interc... At some point (if you go to high enough frequencies), the capacitance of the copper traces will become high enough (i.e. without any capacitor component connecting to a trace between a CPU and a RAM module) to prevent further frequency increases. One way to deal with that is to have shorter traces. This is exactly what CAMM memory modules do - they have shorter (total) traces than DIMM. Even shorter traces are possible if you get rid of modules completely (i.e. solder the RAM chips to the motherboard). Better yet is to place RAM and CPU cores on one chip, skipping even the motherboard traces between the CPU and RAM chips.
UncleOxidant 2y ago
Yep. They could've had socketed RAM but they wouldn't have gotten the same bandwidth and that's really important for running things like LLMs.
- dathinab 2y ago
  > really important for running things like LLMs and games, having really speedy/low latency memory helps a lot with being competitive to some mid range dedicated GPUs
- kissiel 2y ago
  Bandwidth to a GPU from a socketed RAM? How?
  - throawayonthe 2y ago
    [dead]
  - maeln 2y ago
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is an AMD SoC, so a combo of a CPU+GPU (and TPU/AI engine, whatever you wanna call it) on the same chip. And they do share the RAM.
  - reissbaker 2y ago
    They're using an AMD APU: it has unified RAM and VRAM, much like Apple Silicon. Hence why it needs socketed RAM. Unified RAM/VRAM is very nice for running LLMs locally, since you can get wayyyy more RAM than you typically can get VRAM on discrete GPUs. 128GB VRAM on discrete GPUs is 4x5090s — aka $8k just on GPU spend alone. This is $2k and it includes the CPU! Of course, it'll be somewhat slower than a discrete GPU setup, but at a quarter of the cost, that's a reasonable tradeoff for most people I'd think. It should run Llama 3.1 70b (or various finetunes/LoRAs) quite easily, even with reasonably long context.

by rdedev 2y ago

https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY The ceo kind of explains why in this video. In essence it seems to be a limitation of the chip from AMD

fragmede 2y ago

So don't make it then? If a particular vendor's product isn't in line with the company's mission, the CEO is the one to make the call to proceed with manufacturing. edit: it's not for me and I can totally just not buy one, but if one identified with their original mission and sees this as betrayal of that, it'd be hard to justify getting a framework laptop when it's their turn to upgrade.

TheRealPomax 2y ago
If you're not the audience, you're not the audience. Don't buy it. But a whole bunch of folks will be interested in this, and it lets framework dip their toes in the "not laptops" market without going bankrupt over it.
sdwr 2y ago
I think their ethos is more about being user- and developer- friendly. RAM upgrades at reasonable prices, being able to buy the main board sans case, and supporting multiple OSes all point in that direction, without strictly being modular
- CharlesW 2y ago
  > RAM upgrades at reasonable prices… The RAM is not upgradable.
  - hug 2y ago
    Parent clearly means upgrade at time-of-purchase. FTA: > Because the memory is non-upgradeable, we’re being deliberate in making memory pricing more reasonable than you might find with other brands.
    - CharlesW 2y ago
      The bit you quoted back to me says, "the RAM is non-upgradable", which is what I said. Your interpretation (that the parent commenter misspoke) is more generous, though, so let's go with that.
- starkparker 2y ago
  "Details of Framework’s Environmental Ethos and Long Term Mission": https://knowledgebase.frame.work/details-of-framework-s-environmental-ethos-and-long-term-mission-B162Wp40O https://knowledgebase.frame.work/details-of-framework-s-envi... > July 7 2022 3:26pm > Framework’s mission is to fix consumer electronics - and we are doing that by respecting you and the planet. We have put this vision into everything we do by providing you with amazing products that are meant to last as long as possible by letting you upgrade and modify them over that lifetime to support your specific needs. > Our mission is to reduce the amount of waste that is generated and energy that is expended and reduce our overall consumer electronics footprint, while providing a better product than you can get anywhere else. This includes using post-consumer-recycled aluminum and plastic in our products as well as recycled and recyclable packaging. > We have just started this journey, and we are continually looking for ways to reduce our footprint and be even healthier for the environment. We’re happy to get ideas and suggestions on how we can do this. The Framework Community is a great place to share this.
Spivak 2y ago
They saw an underserved niche and went for it. Based on the wait time for their site seems to be working for them.
sangnoir 2y ago
> So don't make it then? You presume to have internalized Framework's core-values more than the founder/CEO? The box is not my cup of tea,but they are free to experiment.
- mhitza 2y ago
  > You presume to have internalized Framework's core-values more than the founder/CEO? His reaction in the livestream was along these lines when he semi-jokingly said "I'm surprised no one from the audience threw something at me" At a larger event I would have kind of expected a "boo", but it seemed like a rather small gathering where most people knew each other. Unlike the live 12k Youtube chat, that was very surprised and disappointed at times.
  - mohsen1 2y ago
    You can't argue with laws of physics at some point. Every nanometer counts at those frequencies. You can't put your RAM too far at some point in which a physical socket will be a deal breaker. Also, Framework doesn't need to make something for you to "build a PC". PCs are extremely modular already. They are solving a different problem here.
- fragmede 2y ago
  I presume that my core values, which I might know just a teeny tiny bit, align with what the corporation has stated as their values. But at the end of the day, the"core values" of a corporation are just some words on a webpage on the journey to more profit and I mean, hey, I like money too, so it's not like I can really fault them for pivoting.
  - tomnipotent 2y ago
    This is literally the same product they've been selling with just one more component soldered on (memory). I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it a "pivot".
    - 2y ago
preisschild 2y ago
I disagree. Modularity is good, but if there are real technical reasons why it is not possible (like in thise case), then it could be a worthwile compromise.
- fragmede 2y ago
  that's a fair point! soldered on ram currently has more performance than socketed. it's definitely a compromise and I'm being an uncompromising motherfucker. It's not my company though and I'm just some rando on the Internet expressing an opinion.
micromacrofoot 2y ago
It's not for you then FWIW I find the small form factor combined with the CPU and high-powered integrated GPU very appealing. I don't think I could build something with this form factor using off the shelf parts (someone correct me if I'm wrong)... it would end up needing a larger dedicated GPU. I suspect their competition isn't actually people who build their own PCs, but people in the market for Mac Pros — they have a number of benefits over Apple here.
UncleOxidant 2y ago
They just got me as a new customer with this AI miniPC. It's the first Framework product I've bought.
- baobabKoodaa 2y ago
  I'm thinking of buying one as well, and I never would've purchased any of their other products. But I have to agree with people who say this goes against Framework's mission.
elxr 2y ago
Compared to the most popular alternative (mac mini / mac studio), it's still way more inline with the framework mission. You can still buy the motherboard version and use your own case and PSU. That's better than not just the macs, but also many other mini PCs. And considering the chip, it's still the most modular way to buy a Ryzen 395 for the foreseeable future.

yellow_lead 2y ago

From 7:40~ "The signal integrity doesn't work out." I don't understand, but maybe someone else could explain.

kaladin-jasnah 2y ago
I think there's like electromagnetic interference if signals across various buses in computers are too close together, making it more likely that the signals get corrupted or noisy, which could increase latency for trying to clean the signal or make it impossible to get any data of value. Not an engineer though so please correct me. I only have a vague understanding of this.
- nomel 2y ago
  > which could increase latency for trying to clean the signal There's none of that here. That's a concept for uncontrolled interfaces. This is a memory interface, where you either have a good signal or a flawed design. Things like ECC do exist, but those are to detect bit corruption in the memory, but a flawless communication between is still required.
smarx007 2y ago
See https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/29141/interconnect-capacitance-and-speed-of-data-transmission https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/29141/interc... At some point (if you go to high enough frequencies), the capacitance of the copper traces will become high enough (i.e. without any capacitor component connecting to a trace between a CPU and a RAM module) to prevent further frequency increases. One way to deal with that is to have shorter traces. This is exactly what CAMM memory modules do - they have shorter (total) traces than DIMM. Even shorter traces are possible if you get rid of modules completely (i.e. solder the RAM chips to the motherboard). Better yet is to place RAM and CPU cores on one chip, skipping even the motherboard traces between the CPU and RAM chips.

UncleOxidant 2y ago

Yep. They could've had socketed RAM but they wouldn't have gotten the same bandwidth and that's really important for running things like LLMs.

dathinab 2y ago
> really important for running things like LLMs and games, having really speedy/low latency memory helps a lot with being competitive to some mid range dedicated GPUs
kissiel 2y ago
Bandwidth to a GPU from a socketed RAM? How?
- throawayonthe 2y ago
  [dead]
- maeln 2y ago
  Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is an AMD SoC, so a combo of a CPU+GPU (and TPU/AI engine, whatever you wanna call it) on the same chip. And they do share the RAM.
- reissbaker 2y ago
  They're using an AMD APU: it has unified RAM and VRAM, much like Apple Silicon. Hence why it needs socketed RAM. Unified RAM/VRAM is very nice for running LLMs locally, since you can get wayyyy more RAM than you typically can get VRAM on discrete GPUs. 128GB VRAM on discrete GPUs is 4x5090s — aka $8k just on GPU spend alone. This is $2k and it includes the CPU! Of course, it'll be somewhat slower than a discrete GPU setup, but at a quarter of the cost, that's a reasonable tradeoff for most people I'd think. It should run Llama 3.1 70b (or various finetunes/LoRAs) quite easily, even with reasonably long context.