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It seems unframeworky Memory, CPU and GPU once piece of metal, sitting in a tiny box. A regular PC in a regular case, it a lot more modular and upgradable. I

It seems unframeworky Memory, CPU and GPU once piece of metal, sitting in a tiny box. A regular PC in a regular case, it a lot more modular and upgradable. It does seem like an interesting box, and matches against Apple Studio I would presume. Yet customers of Apple are used to having (near) 0 user modifiable parts. It might well have a good market, It might b a great box. It is unframeworky.

unethical_ban 2y ago
There is a balance between forgetting your purpose and thinking too narrowly about your business. At first, Framework is "laptops that are repairable". But if you broaden what they are, they are a disruptor of direct-to-consumer computing equipment, with a core competency of repairability and upgradability. An integrated CPU/RAM is a decrease in that measure, but it is for a valid benefit - a large improvement in performance for low-power graphics and AI software. They aren't sacrificing upgradability for aesthetic, and they continue to offer fully upgradable laptops. I wonder if modular memory will continue to evolve and be competitive bandwidth wise with soldered.
- jsheard 2y ago
  > I wonder if modular memory will continue to evolve and be competitive bandwidth wise with soldered. That's the promise of CAMM2, which is supposed to enable socketed LPDDR with almost the same performance as soldered-down LPDDR. It's still pretty bleeding-edge though so it's hard to blame Framework for sticking with soldered memory for now.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    It's on package memory that AMD sells bundled to OEMs.
    - ac29 2y ago
      Strix Halo doesn't have on package memory, are you thinking of Intel's Lunar Lake?
  - preisschild 2y ago
    Apparently that AMD CPU isnt even compatible with CAMM2 because of technical reasons. Framework CEO explained it in LinusTechTips video.
  - aseipp 2y ago
    CAMM2 only has a 128-bit bus so it's going to severely compromise performance for workloads that want higher interconnect bandwidth, which Strix Halo is targeted at. For things like that, wider busses are always going to give much better performance/watt than upping clock speeds. I'd be more than happy to see CAMM2 in general laptops, but it will probably always be much weaker at shared GPU/CPU designs like Strix Halo, Grace, Apple's M series, etc.
    - Manabu-eo 2y ago
      You just need to use two CAMM2 to get 256-bit bus, just like what you do with regular DIMMs when you need more channels.
rdedev 2y ago
https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY The ceo kind of explains why in this video. In essence it seems to be a limitation of the chip from AMD
- fragmede 2y ago
  So don't make it then? If a particular vendor's product isn't in line with the company's mission, the CEO is the one to make the call to proceed with manufacturing. edit: it's not for me and I can totally just not buy one, but if one identified with their original mission and sees this as betrayal of that, it'd be hard to justify getting a framework laptop when it's their turn to upgrade.
  - TheRealPomax 2y ago
    If you're not the audience, you're not the audience. Don't buy it. But a whole bunch of folks will be interested in this, and it lets framework dip their toes in the "not laptops" market without going bankrupt over it.
  - sdwr 2y ago
    I think their ethos is more about being user- and developer- friendly. RAM upgrades at reasonable prices, being able to buy the main board sans case, and supporting multiple OSes all point in that direction, without strictly being modular
    - CharlesW 2y ago
      > RAM upgrades at reasonable prices… The RAM is not upgradable.
      - hug 2y ago
        Parent clearly means upgrade at time-of-purchase. FTA: > Because the memory is non-upgradeable, we’re being deliberate in making memory pricing more reasonable than you might find with other brands.
throwaway48476 2y ago
The mac studio uses apples upgradeable FU.2 NAND module interface.
Spunkie 2y ago
Honestly to me these announcements read as an outright abandonment of frameworks supposed mission. Feels like a stab in the back.
- laweijfmvo 2y ago
  like everyone else, they’re chasing the AI dragon
UncleOxidant 2y ago
I put in a pre-order - they sold out the first batch pretty quickly today so I won't be getting it till Q3. The price seems quite decent. Framework has a good reputation. I've been watching for the HP Strix Halo miniPC since they announced early in the year, but it still says "coming soon" and no pricing. I suspect the Framework price will come in lower than the HP. Also, Framework is a lot more transparent than HP.

unethical_ban 2y ago

There is a balance between forgetting your purpose and thinking too narrowly about your business. At first, Framework is "laptops that are repairable". But if you broaden what they are, they are a disruptor of direct-to-consumer computing equipment, with a core competency of repairability and upgradability. An integrated CPU/RAM is a decrease in that measure, but it is for a valid benefit - a large improvement in performance for low-power graphics and AI software. They aren't sacrificing upgradability for aesthetic, and they continue to offer fully upgradable laptops. I wonder if modular memory will continue to evolve and be competitive bandwidth wise with soldered.

jsheard 2y ago
> I wonder if modular memory will continue to evolve and be competitive bandwidth wise with soldered. That's the promise of CAMM2, which is supposed to enable socketed LPDDR with almost the same performance as soldered-down LPDDR. It's still pretty bleeding-edge though so it's hard to blame Framework for sticking with soldered memory for now.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  It's on package memory that AMD sells bundled to OEMs.
  - ac29 2y ago
    Strix Halo doesn't have on package memory, are you thinking of Intel's Lunar Lake?
- preisschild 2y ago
  Apparently that AMD CPU isnt even compatible with CAMM2 because of technical reasons. Framework CEO explained it in LinusTechTips video.
- aseipp 2y ago
  CAMM2 only has a 128-bit bus so it's going to severely compromise performance for workloads that want higher interconnect bandwidth, which Strix Halo is targeted at. For things like that, wider busses are always going to give much better performance/watt than upping clock speeds. I'd be more than happy to see CAMM2 in general laptops, but it will probably always be much weaker at shared GPU/CPU designs like Strix Halo, Grace, Apple's M series, etc.
  - Manabu-eo 2y ago
    You just need to use two CAMM2 to get 256-bit bus, just like what you do with regular DIMMs when you need more channels.

rdedev 2y ago

https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY The ceo kind of explains why in this video. In essence it seems to be a limitation of the chip from AMD

fragmede 2y ago
So don't make it then? If a particular vendor's product isn't in line with the company's mission, the CEO is the one to make the call to proceed with manufacturing. edit: it's not for me and I can totally just not buy one, but if one identified with their original mission and sees this as betrayal of that, it'd be hard to justify getting a framework laptop when it's their turn to upgrade.
- TheRealPomax 2y ago
  If you're not the audience, you're not the audience. Don't buy it. But a whole bunch of folks will be interested in this, and it lets framework dip their toes in the "not laptops" market without going bankrupt over it.
- sdwr 2y ago
  I think their ethos is more about being user- and developer- friendly. RAM upgrades at reasonable prices, being able to buy the main board sans case, and supporting multiple OSes all point in that direction, without strictly being modular
  - CharlesW 2y ago
    > RAM upgrades at reasonable prices… The RAM is not upgradable.
    - hug 2y ago
      Parent clearly means upgrade at time-of-purchase. FTA: > Because the memory is non-upgradeable, we’re being deliberate in making memory pricing more reasonable than you might find with other brands.

throwaway48476 2y ago

The mac studio uses apples upgradeable FU.2 NAND module interface.

Spunkie 2y ago

Honestly to me these announcements read as an outright abandonment of frameworks supposed mission. Feels like a stab in the back.

laweijfmvo 2y ago
like everyone else, they’re chasing the AI dragon

UncleOxidant 2y ago

I put in a pre-order - they sold out the first batch pretty quickly today so I won't be getting it till Q3. The price seems quite decent. Framework has a good reputation. I've been watching for the HP Strix Halo miniPC since they announced early in the year, but it still says "coming soon" and no pricing. I suspect the Framework price will come in lower than the HP. Also, Framework is a lot more transparent than HP.