3 ms·

Google openly train stuff based on your email, they used is specifically to train Smart Compose, but maybe other stuff too. He likely uses multiple Google produ

by bArray 2y ago

Google openly train stuff based on your email, they used is specifically to train Smart Compose, but maybe other stuff too. He likely uses multiple Google products. Draft papers in Google Drive perhaps? These LLM models are essentially trying to produce material that sounds correct, perhaps the hypothesis was a relatively obvious question with the right domain knowledge. Additionally, he may not have been the first to ask the question. It's entirely possible that the AI chewed up and spat out some domain knowledge from a foreign research group outside of his wheelhouse. This kind of stuff happens all the time. I personally have accidentally reinvented things without prior knowledge of them. Many years ago in University I remember deriving a PID controller without being aware of what one was. I probably got enough clues from other people/media that were aware of them, that bridging that final gap was made easier.

Jabbles 2y ago
> We do not use your Workspace data to train or improve the underlying generative AI and large language models that power Gemini, Search, and other systems outside of Workspace without permission. https://support.google.com/meet/answer/14615114?hl=en#:~:text=We%20do%20not%20use%20your%20Workspace%20data%20to%20train%20or%20improve%20the%20underlying%20generative%20AI%20and%20large%20language%20models%20that%20power%20Gemini%2C%20Search%2C%20and%20other%20systems%20outside%20of%20Workspace%20without%20permission. https://support.google.com/meet/answer/14615114?hl=en#:~:tex... You may not believe them, but I challenge your description of it as "openly".
- stonogo 2y ago
  Yeah, "Workspace data." If you don't think a scientist has copies of all his/her stuff in a personal Google account you've never met a scientist.
  - cwillu 2y ago
    The second half of the sentence is a bit awkward, but the first bit is pretty clear: “We do not use your Workspace data”
    - protimewaster 2y ago
      Isn't it saying that it might be trained on Workspace data, but that the results of that training will only be used within the same Workspace?
      - cwillu 2y ago
        It's not being used to train the underlying generative AI.
        protimewaster 2y ago
        Doesn't it only say it won't be trained for generative AI that works outside of the Workspace? > We do not use your Workspace data to train or improve the underlying generative AI and large language models that power Gemini, Search, and other systems outside of Workspace I.e., they could use it to train an LLM specific to your Workspace, but that training data wouldn't be used outside of the Workspace, for the general generative products.
    - progval 2y ago
      But a personal account is not Workspace, as Google Workspace is a B2B product, right?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - Xelynega 2y ago
      Does it not say "without permission"? Was signing up for a workspace account and signing a EULA permission? Is permission given in an implicitly signed document like a privacy policy?
- protimewaster 2y ago
  Isn't that implying that they do train on Workspace data, but the results of the training won't be applied outside of the Workspace? It is an awful sentence, but I'm reading it as: > We do not use your Workspace data to train or improve the underlying generative AI and large language models [...] outside of Workspace [...]. Which to me makes it sound like if the answer is in your Workspace, and you ask an LLM in your Workspace, it would be able to tell you the answer.
- collingreen 2y ago
  What constitutes permission? Did we all give full permission (in Google's opinion) without knowing it in the dozens and dozens of pages of Eula and deluge of privacy policy changes? The other comments are valid but irrelevant if Google thinks (rightly or wrongly) that "by using this product you give permission to xyz". I'm reminded of when Microsoft said you didn't actually buy the Xbox even though you thought you did and they won in court to prevent people from changing or even repairing their own (well, Microsoft's I guess, even though the person paid for it and thought they bought it) machine.
  - bArray 2y ago
    Exactly this. In the pages and pages of terms and conditions, this will likely be covered, plus a lot of these services are opt-out. By not unticking "train on my workspace data" hidden several matrix layers deep, you are probably giving permission by default.
crazygringo 2y ago
> Google openly train stuff based on your email They do not. Many years ago, they served customized ads based on your email. Then they stopped that, even for free accounts, because it led to a lot of unfounded misunderstanding that "Google reads your email, Google trains on your email"...
- jsiepkes 2y ago
  Can you prove they don't? Right now Google is losing in the AI space. I wouldn't be surprised if they went with "it's better to ask for forgiveness later than permission upfront".
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    Look at all their legal cost contracts like terms of service. Then also consider how all of their enterprise customers would switch to MS/AWS in a heartbeat if they found out Google was training on their private, proprietary data. Google Cloud has been a gigantic investment they've been making for well over a decade now. They're not going to throw away consumer and enterprise trust to train on a bunch of e-mail.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > Then also consider how all of their enterprise customers would switch to MS/AWS in a heartbeat if they found out Google was training on their private, proprietary data. Enterprise customers are one thing, but private customers of ordinary Gmail? Completely another thing. > Google Cloud has been a gigantic investment they've been making for well over a decade now. They're not going to throw away consumer and enterprise trust to train on a bunch of e-mail. Consumers barely trust Google any more these days, not with the frequent stories about arbitrary bans, and corporations shy away from Google Cloud due to the same reason plus the service quality being way lower than AWS.
- Lastminutepanic 2y ago
  I mean they never stopped "training on your email"... I'm sure they started of (back when they may not have had the code/compute to trawl and model from the body of the email), it was just the metadata they used to help build data for targeted marketing. And are still absolutely using metadata... But yeah, in this specific case, it is way less nefarious. Just one, or both, of Google, and the scientist, selling a new AI product, with a sensationalist, unrealistic story, in a huge, publicly funded, "serious" news outlet. At least when the NYtimes drools down it's chin at some AI vaporware, they may be getting a huge advertising buy, or someone there owns a lot of stock in the company... BBC can't even hide behind "well that's capitalism baby". I will say the prime minister and his red thatcherites have been obsessed with becoming a player in the AI industry... If you want a conspiracy theory i think is more likely haha.

by bArray 2y ago

Jabbles 2y ago

> We do not use your Workspace data to train or improve the underlying generative AI and large language models that power Gemini, Search, and other systems outside of Workspace without permission. https://support.google.com/meet/answer/14615114?hl=en#:~:text=We%20do%20not%20use%20your%20Workspace%20data%20to%20train%20or%20improve%20the%20underlying%20generative%20AI%20and%20large%20language%20models%20that%20power%20Gemini%2C%20Search%2C%20and%20other%20systems%20outside%20of%20Workspace%20without%20permission. https://support.google.com/meet/answer/14615114?hl=en#:~:tex... You may not believe them, but I challenge your description of it as "openly".

stonogo 2y ago
Yeah, "Workspace data." If you don't think a scientist has copies of all his/her stuff in a personal Google account you've never met a scientist.
- cwillu 2y ago
  The second half of the sentence is a bit awkward, but the first bit is pretty clear: “We do not use your Workspace data”
  - protimewaster 2y ago
    Isn't it saying that it might be trained on Workspace data, but that the results of that training will only be used within the same Workspace?
    - cwillu 2y ago
      It's not being used to train the underlying generative AI.
      - protimewaster 2y ago
        Doesn't it only say it won't be trained for generative AI that works outside of the Workspace? > We do not use your Workspace data to train or improve the underlying generative AI and large language models that power Gemini, Search, and other systems outside of Workspace I.e., they could use it to train an LLM specific to your Workspace, but that training data wouldn't be used outside of the Workspace, for the general generative products.
  - progval 2y ago
    But a personal account is not Workspace, as Google Workspace is a B2B product, right?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - Xelynega 2y ago
    Does it not say "without permission"? Was signing up for a workspace account and signing a EULA permission? Is permission given in an implicitly signed document like a privacy policy?
protimewaster 2y ago
Isn't that implying that they do train on Workspace data, but the results of the training won't be applied outside of the Workspace? It is an awful sentence, but I'm reading it as: > We do not use your Workspace data to train or improve the underlying generative AI and large language models [...] outside of Workspace [...]. Which to me makes it sound like if the answer is in your Workspace, and you ask an LLM in your Workspace, it would be able to tell you the answer.
collingreen 2y ago
What constitutes permission? Did we all give full permission (in Google's opinion) without knowing it in the dozens and dozens of pages of Eula and deluge of privacy policy changes? The other comments are valid but irrelevant if Google thinks (rightly or wrongly) that "by using this product you give permission to xyz". I'm reminded of when Microsoft said you didn't actually buy the Xbox even though you thought you did and they won in court to prevent people from changing or even repairing their own (well, Microsoft's I guess, even though the person paid for it and thought they bought it) machine.
- bArray 2y ago
  Exactly this. In the pages and pages of terms and conditions, this will likely be covered, plus a lot of these services are opt-out. By not unticking "train on my workspace data" hidden several matrix layers deep, you are probably giving permission by default.

crazygringo 2y ago

> Google openly train stuff based on your email They do not. Many years ago, they served customized ads based on your email. Then they stopped that, even for free accounts, because it led to a lot of unfounded misunderstanding that "Google reads your email, Google trains on your email"...

jsiepkes 2y ago
Can you prove they don't? Right now Google is losing in the AI space. I wouldn't be surprised if they went with "it's better to ask for forgiveness later than permission upfront".
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Look at all their legal cost contracts like terms of service. Then also consider how all of their enterprise customers would switch to MS/AWS in a heartbeat if they found out Google was training on their private, proprietary data. Google Cloud has been a gigantic investment they've been making for well over a decade now. They're not going to throw away consumer and enterprise trust to train on a bunch of e-mail.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > Then also consider how all of their enterprise customers would switch to MS/AWS in a heartbeat if they found out Google was training on their private, proprietary data. Enterprise customers are one thing, but private customers of ordinary Gmail? Completely another thing. > Google Cloud has been a gigantic investment they've been making for well over a decade now. They're not going to throw away consumer and enterprise trust to train on a bunch of e-mail. Consumers barely trust Google any more these days, not with the frequent stories about arbitrary bans, and corporations shy away from Google Cloud due to the same reason plus the service quality being way lower than AWS.
Lastminutepanic 2y ago
I mean they never stopped "training on your email"... I'm sure they started of (back when they may not have had the code/compute to trawl and model from the body of the email), it was just the metadata they used to help build data for targeted marketing. And are still absolutely using metadata... But yeah, in this specific case, it is way less nefarious. Just one, or both, of Google, and the scientist, selling a new AI product, with a sensationalist, unrealistic story, in a huge, publicly funded, "serious" news outlet. At least when the NYtimes drools down it's chin at some AI vaporware, they may be getting a huge advertising buy, or someone there owns a lot of stock in the company... BBC can't even hide behind "well that's capitalism baby". I will say the prime minister and his red thatcherites have been obsessed with becoming a player in the AI industry... If you want a conspiracy theory i think is more likely haha.