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No, we can hate Musk all we want, but we shouldn't rewrite history because we despise him. He is a complex individual, and he still deserves the credit for foun

No, we can hate Musk all we want, but we shouldn't rewrite history because we despise him. He is a complex individual, and he still deserves the credit for founding SpaceX and being chief engineer.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> He is a complex individual, and he still deserves the credit for founding SpaceX and being chief engineer Musk founded SpaceX. He hasn't been a chief engineer in anything but title for a long time. To the extent he deserves respect, it's in giving its team the insulation he's denied Twitter and the American people.
- fastball 2y ago
  So you think he had no hand in the engineering decisions and work surrounding Starship? On what are you basing this? Because most sources I've seen seem to indicate he is very involved.
  - notahacker 2y ago
    I think the most obvious answer is that he was both heavily involved in key strategic decisions and not as technical as someone holding the Chief Engineer title usually would be. And is evidently less involved now, as he's doing more other stuff (SpaceX also appears very focused on "things that make a profit in near-earth space" rather than "things that might be needed for a near tern Mars mission"...) Certainly he's more useful to organizations when he goes in with the approach of listening to engineers' ideas to build stuff than when he goes in with the approach of gutting the organization in revenge for things he's taken exception to.
    - fastball 2y ago
      Do you think engineering managers are doing a ton of technical work day-to-day? Because a "Chief Engineer" is a level (or two or three) above that. Of course the Chief Engineer isn't doing a ton of low-level technical works, that's not the job.
      - notahacker 2y ago
        In a larger company a chief engineer isn't doing low level technical work, but they are normally an engineer with deep domain knowledge of the low level work being done, and not a CEO-type also responsible for other companies and the company's commercial priorities. So no, I don't think the design of Starship looks any different if he decides he's too busy to attend design meetings because of his other five jobs. Their other top level execs are very, very good engineers. SpaceX also wasn't very big in the early years, and the CTOs and chief engineers of the space launch startups I know absolutely do involve themselves in the low level technical work. I don't imagine Elon did much of that even when he did make a point of interviewing every new hire and sitting in on meetings about low level purchasing decisions.
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  Who made the bets on Merlin and Raptor engines, Falcon 9, reusability and Starship? SpaceX employees online say he was heavily involved in engineering, as chief designer; but even imagining he did not, just allowing those crazy ideas to actually happen has incredible merit. This will go down in history as the most shameful descent into madness of the 21st century. I sincerely hope he gets hospitalized for his drug addiction or whatever is going on, allowing others to take back command of these companies before they run into the ground.
  - cheema33 2y ago
    As someone who has followed Musk for some time, I agree. He seemed mostly normal in the early days. But when the money supply became large, he appears to have lost his mind. As many others, I suspect he is on some seriously potent drugs. His fate may not be all the different from Howard Hughes. A wealthy and influential figure from not so long ago who lost his mind towards the end.
    - matwood 2y ago
      The problem is when someone becomes that rich, they remove anyone from their circle who tells them no. And for Musk, even all legal consequence has been fully removed now. We all need guardrails otherwise our worst basic instincts start to take over. You mention Hughes, but I also think about someone like Hsieh.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        Hsieh also had a famous musician pleading with him near his end, though for a different reason.
      - fxtentacle 2y ago
        Sadly, the similarity is there. Hsieh and Musk were both quite happy nerds and then they became very rich very quickly and drifted off into drugs. Both are/were really into Ketamines and openly talked about it. Both are/were strunggling with depression. Both had friends warn them that they are on a bad path. Let's hope Musk will manage to stop the drugs before they stop him.
- jlmorton 2y ago
  There is absolutely no chance Starship is developed using steel without Musk. There is absolutely zero chance that Mechazilla would exist without Musk. These are massive elements of the Starship program. Now, it's true enough that he didn't literally _build_ these things. He is the CEO. Steve Jobs didn't build the iPhone. But these programs are very obviously shaped by Musk to a large degree.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > no chance Starship is developed using steel without Musk What are you basing this on? It was carbon fibre or steel. SpaceX tried carbon. The bake was too inconsistent, so they went with steel. This was the stated and obvious design path since Falcon Heavy’s design trajectory plateaued.
    - jlmorton 2y ago
      Steel is by no means obvious. No one else in the industry uses it. (No one else in the industry uses carbon fiber, either, except things like fairings). The obvious choice that everyone uses is aluminum, or various alloys, like aluminum-lithium.
- qubitcoder 2y ago
  That's a common refrain, but an inaccurate one. Musk was heavily involved in the engineering efforts at SpaceX. NASA struggled to keep up with his continual and extremely detailed stream of questions regarding engineering choices, with an obsessive and relentless focus on blueprints. The list of engineering achievements and innovations (often unorthodox) is too long to list in a comment, but I highly recommend the book The Space Barons by Christian Davenport [0]. It's a fantastic read. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Barons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Barons
Animats 2y ago
Yes. But all the good stuff Musk did was before he started using drugs.

No, we can hate Musk all we want, but we shouldn't rewrite history because we despise him. He is a complex individual, and he still deserves the credit for founding SpaceX and being chief engineer.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> He is a complex individual, and he still deserves the credit for founding SpaceX and being chief engineer Musk founded SpaceX. He hasn't been a chief engineer in anything but title for a long time. To the extent he deserves respect, it's in giving its team the insulation he's denied Twitter and the American people.

fastball 2y ago
So you think he had no hand in the engineering decisions and work surrounding Starship? On what are you basing this? Because most sources I've seen seem to indicate he is very involved.
- notahacker 2y ago
  I think the most obvious answer is that he was both heavily involved in key strategic decisions and not as technical as someone holding the Chief Engineer title usually would be. And is evidently less involved now, as he's doing more other stuff (SpaceX also appears very focused on "things that make a profit in near-earth space" rather than "things that might be needed for a near tern Mars mission"...) Certainly he's more useful to organizations when he goes in with the approach of listening to engineers' ideas to build stuff than when he goes in with the approach of gutting the organization in revenge for things he's taken exception to.
  - fastball 2y ago
    Do you think engineering managers are doing a ton of technical work day-to-day? Because a "Chief Engineer" is a level (or two or three) above that. Of course the Chief Engineer isn't doing a ton of low-level technical works, that's not the job.
    - notahacker 2y ago
      In a larger company a chief engineer isn't doing low level technical work, but they are normally an engineer with deep domain knowledge of the low level work being done, and not a CEO-type also responsible for other companies and the company's commercial priorities. So no, I don't think the design of Starship looks any different if he decides he's too busy to attend design meetings because of his other five jobs. Their other top level execs are very, very good engineers. SpaceX also wasn't very big in the early years, and the CTOs and chief engineers of the space launch startups I know absolutely do involve themselves in the low level technical work. I don't imagine Elon did much of that even when he did make a point of interviewing every new hire and sitting in on meetings about low level purchasing decisions.
ricardobeat 2y ago
Who made the bets on Merlin and Raptor engines, Falcon 9, reusability and Starship? SpaceX employees online say he was heavily involved in engineering, as chief designer; but even imagining he did not, just allowing those crazy ideas to actually happen has incredible merit. This will go down in history as the most shameful descent into madness of the 21st century. I sincerely hope he gets hospitalized for his drug addiction or whatever is going on, allowing others to take back command of these companies before they run into the ground.
- cheema33 2y ago
  As someone who has followed Musk for some time, I agree. He seemed mostly normal in the early days. But when the money supply became large, he appears to have lost his mind. As many others, I suspect he is on some seriously potent drugs. His fate may not be all the different from Howard Hughes. A wealthy and influential figure from not so long ago who lost his mind towards the end.
  - matwood 2y ago
    The problem is when someone becomes that rich, they remove anyone from their circle who tells them no. And for Musk, even all legal consequence has been fully removed now. We all need guardrails otherwise our worst basic instincts start to take over. You mention Hughes, but I also think about someone like Hsieh.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      Hsieh also had a famous musician pleading with him near his end, though for a different reason.
    - fxtentacle 2y ago
      Sadly, the similarity is there. Hsieh and Musk were both quite happy nerds and then they became very rich very quickly and drifted off into drugs. Both are/were really into Ketamines and openly talked about it. Both are/were strunggling with depression. Both had friends warn them that they are on a bad path. Let's hope Musk will manage to stop the drugs before they stop him.
jlmorton 2y ago
There is absolutely no chance Starship is developed using steel without Musk. There is absolutely zero chance that Mechazilla would exist without Musk. These are massive elements of the Starship program. Now, it's true enough that he didn't literally _build_ these things. He is the CEO. Steve Jobs didn't build the iPhone. But these programs are very obviously shaped by Musk to a large degree.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > no chance Starship is developed using steel without Musk What are you basing this on? It was carbon fibre or steel. SpaceX tried carbon. The bake was too inconsistent, so they went with steel. This was the stated and obvious design path since Falcon Heavy’s design trajectory plateaued.
  - jlmorton 2y ago
    Steel is by no means obvious. No one else in the industry uses it. (No one else in the industry uses carbon fiber, either, except things like fairings). The obvious choice that everyone uses is aluminum, or various alloys, like aluminum-lithium.
qubitcoder 2y ago
That's a common refrain, but an inaccurate one. Musk was heavily involved in the engineering efforts at SpaceX. NASA struggled to keep up with his continual and extremely detailed stream of questions regarding engineering choices, with an obsessive and relentless focus on blueprints. The list of engineering achievements and innovations (often unorthodox) is too long to list in a comment, but I highly recommend the book The Space Barons by Christian Davenport [0]. It's a fantastic read. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Barons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Barons

Animats 2y ago

Yes. But all the good stuff Musk did was before he started using drugs.