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That data sharing thing goes pretty far. Am I reading that correctly? Anything that is hosted in the EU, or sells to EU citizens, has to share _all (generated b

That data sharing thing goes pretty far. Am I reading that correctly? Anything that is hosted in the EU, or sells to EU citizens, has to share _all (generated by activity, personal and non-personal, including meta-) data_ that the service itself can use (i.e. backup tapes are excluded), upon request, free of charge, without any obfuscation, and without much of a delay. For B2B and B2C. Almost sounds too good to be true. As far as I can tell: * There is no clause for restricting this if it's hard to do. If it's _a lot_ of data, you still have to provide it. * There is no clause indicating you can charge a fee for the sharing of the data (this seems fair to me; the prep and transfer costs, assuming you automate the process, are incredibly low unless it's, I dunno, some 'permanently live stream my entire life in 4k' service). Easier to just eliminate any attempt at malicious compliance by interpreting 'reasonable' unreasonably.

jorvi 2y ago
> Easier to just eliminate any attempt at malicious compliance by interpreting 'reasonable' unreasonably. Smart. Telcos in The Netherlands in the past did something where, for unlimited cellular data service, they used a "Fair Use Policy". Which they took at 10x the 'average' (mean not median) data use. Only problem was, this was early 2010's and there were still a lot of old people who weren't using data. They had 0MB subscriptions on their mobile subscription, which meant they technically had a data subscription although with gigantic costs per MB. You can already see where this is going. All these subscriptions were added along in the calculation, which meant their mean fantasyland data usage came out at 1500MB and '''unlimited''' data usage was capped at 15GB, after which speeds would plummet to 64Kbps. These days unlimited does mean unlimited, although you get a 20GB daily allotment, after which you have to send a refill text for every 2GB of data. Which of course can be scripted :). Although I don't see why you'd need north of 600GB of mobile data per month.
- immibis 2y ago
  Here in Germany, unlimited means unlimited. Or else. My high score is 14000GB.
  - felurx 2y ago
    14TB of mobile data usage sounds fun, how did you do that?
    - immibis 2y ago
      (1) buy a true unlimited data plan (2) download and upload as much as you can for a whole month? Make sure it's something useful though - iperf is cheating. Since it's true unlimited, they don't track usage. You can set your phone to a 1GB warning so the counter will always be displayed in your notifications.
      - walthamstow 2y ago
        I may be wrong but I believe uploads don't contribute to data usage caps. This is based on my experience using eSIMs for travelling.
  - sunaookami 2y ago
    It does not? 1&1 has "unlimited" but after 50 GB you need to add 2 GB again in the web interface every time. I think Telekom has real "unlimited" but it costs like 100€ per month.
ProteanLog 2y ago
> Almost sounds too good to be true. Note that this is essentially already the case under the GDPR for anything that's tied to a natural person. > * There is no clause indicating you can charge a fee for the sharing of the data Quite the opposite; There's a clause mandating it be free of charge. Chapter II, Article 4: > Where data cannot be directly accessed by the user from the connected product or related service, data holders shall make readily available data, as well as the relevant metadata necessary to interpret and use those data, accessible to the user without undue delay, of the same quality as is available to the data holder, easily, securely, free of charge, in a comprehensive, structured, commonly used and machine-readable format and, where relevant and technically feasible, continuously and in real-time. This shall be done on the basis of a simple request through electronic means where technically feasible. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/2854/oj/eng https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/2854/oj/eng There are rules pertaining to B2B relations, where there's some restrictions on how fees may be charged. (Article 9, where fees may cover costs but must not discriminate and must be "reasonable") > Easier to just eliminate any attempt at malicious compliance by interpreting 'reasonable' unreasonably. The "reasonable" clauses exist to pre-empt this. EU courts generally aren't very amused by companies pulling stunts like setting fees to 'Math.infinity'. A good case study for this has been Apple's legal fights around the DMA & App Store monopoly. Which mostly consists of Apple trying to be "clever" and the European Commission telling them that no, their clearly unreasonable fees are unreasonable.
cbeach 2y ago
This is classic regulation by technocrats as opposed to technologists. Flawed reasoning among technocrats is that software can simply be made interoperable. What they fail to understand is that interoperability is a two-sided process, requiring cooperation and collaboration between two (or more) parties. And yes - it’s a process, with a cost. Software cannot simply be made “interoperable” with all possible future permutations of other (often competing) software. To imagine that you can demand all software is “interoperable” is literally to impose unbounded cost on all participants, because they cannot know how many other parties they will be forced to cooperate and collaborate with. This is the kind of financial calculus that only exists in the world of bureaucrats (with their endless supply of public funding, and their never-ending remit). To businesses, on the other hand, cost is existential.
- troupo 2y ago
  > Flawed reasoning among technocrats is that software can simply be made interoperable. What they fail to understand is that interoperability is a two-sided process 1. Data that software operates on can easily be made interoperable. Even trivially. There's no end to standards around that 2. Yes, it's a "two-sided process" in the sense that companies go out of their way to make any and all data as inaccessible as possible
  - cbeach 2y ago
    What if I claim need your data in a particular form in order to “interoperate” with you? Will the EU legally compel you to give me the data in the form I want? Or perhaps you’ll explain that raw data is raw data. In which case, is the EU legally compelling you to give away all your raw data to anyone that might want to cooperate / compete / sabotage / spy on you? If not anyone, what’s the minimum bar that a counterparty has to satisfy to get access to all your data? Who judges when they meet this bar? The European Commission? Judges in the ECJ? For every interop in the cross-product of all software on the market? Are the flaws in this regulation not blindingly obvious to everyone in this community? Am I going mad here?
    - 2y ago

jorvi 2y ago

> Easier to just eliminate any attempt at malicious compliance by interpreting 'reasonable' unreasonably. Smart. Telcos in The Netherlands in the past did something where, for unlimited cellular data service, they used a "Fair Use Policy". Which they took at 10x the 'average' (mean not median) data use. Only problem was, this was early 2010's and there were still a lot of old people who weren't using data. They had 0MB subscriptions on their mobile subscription, which meant they technically had a data subscription although with gigantic costs per MB. You can already see where this is going. All these subscriptions were added along in the calculation, which meant their mean fantasyland data usage came out at 1500MB and '''unlimited''' data usage was capped at 15GB, after which speeds would plummet to 64Kbps. These days unlimited does mean unlimited, although you get a 20GB daily allotment, after which you have to send a refill text for every 2GB of data. Which of course can be scripted :). Although I don't see why you'd need north of 600GB of mobile data per month.

immibis 2y ago
Here in Germany, unlimited means unlimited. Or else. My high score is 14000GB.
- felurx 2y ago
  14TB of mobile data usage sounds fun, how did you do that?
  - immibis 2y ago
    (1) buy a true unlimited data plan (2) download and upload as much as you can for a whole month? Make sure it's something useful though - iperf is cheating. Since it's true unlimited, they don't track usage. You can set your phone to a 1GB warning so the counter will always be displayed in your notifications.
    - walthamstow 2y ago
      I may be wrong but I believe uploads don't contribute to data usage caps. This is based on my experience using eSIMs for travelling.
- sunaookami 2y ago
  It does not? 1&1 has "unlimited" but after 50 GB you need to add 2 GB again in the web interface every time. I think Telekom has real "unlimited" but it costs like 100€ per month.

ProteanLog 2y ago

> Almost sounds too good to be true. Note that this is essentially already the case under the GDPR for anything that's tied to a natural person. > * There is no clause indicating you can charge a fee for the sharing of the data Quite the opposite; There's a clause mandating it be free of charge. Chapter II, Article 4: > Where data cannot be directly accessed by the user from the connected product or related service, data holders shall make readily available data, as well as the relevant metadata necessary to interpret and use those data, accessible to the user without undue delay, of the same quality as is available to the data holder, easily, securely, free of charge, in a comprehensive, structured, commonly used and machine-readable format and, where relevant and technically feasible, continuously and in real-time. This shall be done on the basis of a simple request through electronic means where technically feasible. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/2854/oj/eng https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/2854/oj/eng There are rules pertaining to B2B relations, where there's some restrictions on how fees may be charged. (Article 9, where fees may cover costs but must not discriminate and must be "reasonable") > Easier to just eliminate any attempt at malicious compliance by interpreting 'reasonable' unreasonably. The "reasonable" clauses exist to pre-empt this. EU courts generally aren't very amused by companies pulling stunts like setting fees to 'Math.infinity'. A good case study for this has been Apple's legal fights around the DMA & App Store monopoly. Which mostly consists of Apple trying to be "clever" and the European Commission telling them that no, their clearly unreasonable fees are unreasonable.

cbeach 2y ago

This is classic regulation by technocrats as opposed to technologists. Flawed reasoning among technocrats is that software can simply be made interoperable. What they fail to understand is that interoperability is a two-sided process, requiring cooperation and collaboration between two (or more) parties. And yes - it’s a process, with a cost. Software cannot simply be made “interoperable” with all possible future permutations of other (often competing) software. To imagine that you can demand all software is “interoperable” is literally to impose unbounded cost on all participants, because they cannot know how many other parties they will be forced to cooperate and collaborate with. This is the kind of financial calculus that only exists in the world of bureaucrats (with their endless supply of public funding, and their never-ending remit). To businesses, on the other hand, cost is existential.

troupo 2y ago
> Flawed reasoning among technocrats is that software can simply be made interoperable. What they fail to understand is that interoperability is a two-sided process 1. Data that software operates on can easily be made interoperable. Even trivially. There's no end to standards around that 2. Yes, it's a "two-sided process" in the sense that companies go out of their way to make any and all data as inaccessible as possible
- cbeach 2y ago
  What if I claim need your data in a particular form in order to “interoperate” with you? Will the EU legally compel you to give me the data in the form I want? Or perhaps you’ll explain that raw data is raw data. In which case, is the EU legally compelling you to give away all your raw data to anyone that might want to cooperate / compete / sabotage / spy on you? If not anyone, what’s the minimum bar that a counterparty has to satisfy to get access to all your data? Who judges when they meet this bar? The European Commission? Judges in the ECJ? For every interop in the cross-product of all software on the market? Are the flaws in this regulation not blindingly obvious to everyone in this community? Am I going mad here?
  - 2y ago