4 ms·

So much for TSMC’s Arizona expansion and Intel’s foundry plans.

by osnium123 2y ago

giardini 2y ago
TSM has found few American workers willing to work as hard as Taiwan's, so likely no great loss for them.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - layer8 2y ago
    They do seem to have difficulties related to differences in work culture: https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/tsmc-arizona-struggles-to-overcome-vast-differences-between-taiwanese-and-us-work-culture https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/ts...
  - righthand 2y ago
    Taiwan is not China. It has been colonized by many Asian cultures over the century.
    - yieldcrv 2y ago
      the administration we address is an exiled government, and population, of China and its still in the name. nice try.
      - righthand 2y ago
        That’s my exact point. The population isn’t all Chinese or considers themselves China. Taipei itself is divided into Japanese, Korean, and Chinese areas all with a distinct culture. There is also an evolving Taiwanese culture. The government is the Republic of China and is a completely different government. It broke away because it does not consider itself China or invest in those values. The island and nation are Taiwan. It is a complex situation for sure, but Taiwan is not China. Once you leave Customs/Immigration at a port you will not see China mentioned anywhere. Bad try.
        yieldcrv 2y ago
        [flagged]
        righthand 2y ago
        I highly disagree with a lot of this as you are intentionally downplaying my responses. I would suggest you go visit Taiwan and see how the people there feel about.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Will not be great when China invades Taiwan and global supply of TSMC output evaporates as TSMC destroys the fabs to prevent takeover. > Earlier this year, he said: "Disabling or destroying TSMC is table stakes if China is taking over Taiwan. Would we be so insane as to allow the world's key semiconductor company [to] fall untouched into the hands of an aggressive PRC? Taiwanese should realize that would be the least of their problems." > Earlier this year, the US Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo told the House Appropriations Committee that a hypothetical Chinese invasion of Taiwan and seizure of TSMC would be “absolutely devastating” for the United States. > She said that “the United States buys 92 percent of its leading edge chips from TSMC in Taiwan,” meaning any disruption to that supply chain would have a significant impact on the US economy https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/trumps-undersecretary-of-defense-for-policy-repeatedly-said-tsmc-fabs-should-be-destroyed-if-china-invades-taiwan/ https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/trumps-undersecre...
  - drivingmenuts 2y ago
    Trump doesn't give two shits about Taiwan. My guess is he'll break out his great negotiation skills to get China to … agree that Taiwan is part of China and that we should pay them more for chips (except he'll sell it to us as paying less by just flat out lying about it).
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      If that is the case, the timing is strange with the US State Department changing website content indicating otherwise. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyzy300vlzo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyzy300vlzo
      - jajko 2y ago
        Any official US government foreign policy statements and stances became irrelevant in past month. Even russians struggle to change their internal narratives when trump within week switches from 'ukraine caused the war itself' to 'russia caused the war', then back, then to XYZ, and they specifically are very... flexible with official truths. Its really the mood of the given day of one man, known for his wild emotional swings which rule most if not all of his decisions. Everybody understood the game quickly, leading people on all sides are not stupid in these matters. The rest are just official PR statements 'to keep face'.
- currymj 2y ago
  i often wonder about this. because if you look at Big Law, investment banking, or private equity, there are a lot of highly-educated Americans who are willing to work as hard as anyone on earth. so it's got to be something about TSMC's recruiting pipeline, or perhaps what motivations the Americans who get educated for the skills they need have, rather than specifically American laziness.
  - logicchains 2y ago
    It's very simple: the pay at TSMC is shit by American tech standards and Americans capable of doing the job generally have much better-paying options. Paying US-competitive salaries would basically double TSMC's labor cost.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      Yeah, this is just simple principles: Garbage in, garbage out. If you're only offering little more pay than an entry level fast food worker, your quality and productivity will match that. The real theme of the post-08 crash is "no one wants to pay americans anymore". And it's only been spreading from industry to industry as the billionaires figure out how to cut american labor but benefit from american consumerism.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        It's simpler principles: cost of living is different in different countries, and politicians generally get votes for promising to spend money (raising the cost of living) or doing other COL-raising activities, rather than to save it (thus potentially lowering it). There are no solutions; only trade-offs. And the US, like many first world countries, has picked trade-offs that raise the average COL.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Cost of living never goes down if productivity is going up
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  TSM has found few American workers willing to work inhumane 9/9/6 hours and still not pay rent. They also cannot threaten the CCP on them. >So likely no great loss for hem. This I agree with. This whole tariff deal was supposed to encourage this exact behavior. Have more foreign companies setup on american soil so they can provide american jobs. So we arguably lose out a lot more on this action.
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  Uggh, what sad replies & lack of defense amid the replies for TSMC America! 'Lazy American worker!' yada yada. Arizona fab has had top notch quality, out-pacing Taiwan's yields. https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/tsmc-arizona-fab-delivers-4-percent-more-yield-than-comparable-facilities-in-taiwan https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/ts... They're making 4nm chips too now, doing fine. https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/tsmcs-arizona-fab-21-is-already-making-4nm-chips-yield-and-quality-reportedly-on-par-with-taiwan-fabs https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/ts...
  - osnium123 2y ago
    Yes but they only achieved this because they brought in a lot of workers from Taiwan. Half the workers in the factory are brought in from Taiwan. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/29/business/tsmc-phoenix-taiwan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/29/business/tsmc-phoenix-tai...
    - _t9ow 2y ago
      > Half the workers in the factory are brought in from Taiwan. Thus depriving Taiwan of its much-needed intellectual and human capital to sustain its Silicon Shield defence strategy. I frequently browse social media sites that are popular among the Taiwanese, and my impression is that they are generally unhappy about this state of affairs, seeing it as an act of economic coercion from the US.
      - fuckbrownpeople 2y ago
        [flagged]
      - jajko 2y ago
        > they are generally unhappy about this state of affairs, seeing it as an act of economic coercion from the US Welcome to how rest of the world feels like now
hindsightbias 2y ago
Why are we subsizing Apple when they have $200B in cash laying around? Repatriate and give them sme tax credit.
- addicted 2y ago
  Why would Apple repatriate their cash and pay any taxes? I don’t understand why they would care to move the money out of the countries where they earned that money and are likely to be expanding more than they are in the U.S. anyways.
  - jajko 2y ago
    You mean Ireland?
  - ashoeafoot 2y ago
    Cause the us is no save haven for money and ownership anymore? Look at other autocracies where the dictators give and take the riches ala russia.In a oligarchy with king, you are one bad emperor day at court away from loosing it.
- Clubber 2y ago
  A lot of subsidization is tax credits.

So much for TSMC’s Arizona expansion and Intel’s foundry plans.

giardini 2y ago

TSM has found few American workers willing to work as hard as Taiwan's, so likely no great loss for them.

yieldcrv 2y ago
[flagged]
- layer8 2y ago
  They do seem to have difficulties related to differences in work culture: https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/tsmc-arizona-struggles-to-overcome-vast-differences-between-taiwanese-and-us-work-culture https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/ts...
- righthand 2y ago
  Taiwan is not China. It has been colonized by many Asian cultures over the century.
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    the administration we address is an exiled government, and population, of China and its still in the name. nice try.
    - righthand 2y ago
      That’s my exact point. The population isn’t all Chinese or considers themselves China. Taipei itself is divided into Japanese, Korean, and Chinese areas all with a distinct culture. There is also an evolving Taiwanese culture. The government is the Republic of China and is a completely different government. It broke away because it does not consider itself China or invest in those values. The island and nation are Taiwan. It is a complex situation for sure, but Taiwan is not China. Once you leave Customs/Immigration at a port you will not see China mentioned anywhere. Bad try.
      - yieldcrv 2y ago
        [flagged]
        righthand 2y ago
        I highly disagree with a lot of this as you are intentionally downplaying my responses. I would suggest you go visit Taiwan and see how the people there feel about.
toomuchtodo 2y ago
Will not be great when China invades Taiwan and global supply of TSMC output evaporates as TSMC destroys the fabs to prevent takeover. > Earlier this year, he said: "Disabling or destroying TSMC is table stakes if China is taking over Taiwan. Would we be so insane as to allow the world's key semiconductor company [to] fall untouched into the hands of an aggressive PRC? Taiwanese should realize that would be the least of their problems." > Earlier this year, the US Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo told the House Appropriations Committee that a hypothetical Chinese invasion of Taiwan and seizure of TSMC would be “absolutely devastating” for the United States. > She said that “the United States buys 92 percent of its leading edge chips from TSMC in Taiwan,” meaning any disruption to that supply chain would have a significant impact on the US economy https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/trumps-undersecretary-of-defense-for-policy-repeatedly-said-tsmc-fabs-should-be-destroyed-if-china-invades-taiwan/ https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/trumps-undersecre...
- drivingmenuts 2y ago
  Trump doesn't give two shits about Taiwan. My guess is he'll break out his great negotiation skills to get China to … agree that Taiwan is part of China and that we should pay them more for chips (except he'll sell it to us as paying less by just flat out lying about it).
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    If that is the case, the timing is strange with the US State Department changing website content indicating otherwise. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyzy300vlzo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyzy300vlzo
    - jajko 2y ago
      Any official US government foreign policy statements and stances became irrelevant in past month. Even russians struggle to change their internal narratives when trump within week switches from 'ukraine caused the war itself' to 'russia caused the war', then back, then to XYZ, and they specifically are very... flexible with official truths. Its really the mood of the given day of one man, known for his wild emotional swings which rule most if not all of his decisions. Everybody understood the game quickly, leading people on all sides are not stupid in these matters. The rest are just official PR statements 'to keep face'.
currymj 2y ago
i often wonder about this. because if you look at Big Law, investment banking, or private equity, there are a lot of highly-educated Americans who are willing to work as hard as anyone on earth. so it's got to be something about TSMC's recruiting pipeline, or perhaps what motivations the Americans who get educated for the skills they need have, rather than specifically American laziness.
- logicchains 2y ago
  It's very simple: the pay at TSMC is shit by American tech standards and Americans capable of doing the job generally have much better-paying options. Paying US-competitive salaries would basically double TSMC's labor cost.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    Yeah, this is just simple principles: Garbage in, garbage out. If you're only offering little more pay than an entry level fast food worker, your quality and productivity will match that. The real theme of the post-08 crash is "no one wants to pay americans anymore". And it's only been spreading from industry to industry as the billionaires figure out how to cut american labor but benefit from american consumerism.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      It's simpler principles: cost of living is different in different countries, and politicians generally get votes for promising to spend money (raising the cost of living) or doing other COL-raising activities, rather than to save it (thus potentially lowering it). There are no solutions; only trade-offs. And the US, like many first world countries, has picked trade-offs that raise the average COL.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        Cost of living never goes down if productivity is going up
johnnyanmac 2y ago
TSM has found few American workers willing to work inhumane 9/9/6 hours and still not pay rent. They also cannot threaten the CCP on them. >So likely no great loss for hem. This I agree with. This whole tariff deal was supposed to encourage this exact behavior. Have more foreign companies setup on american soil so they can provide american jobs. So we arguably lose out a lot more on this action.
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Uggh, what sad replies & lack of defense amid the replies for TSMC America! 'Lazy American worker!' yada yada. Arizona fab has had top notch quality, out-pacing Taiwan's yields. https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/tsmc-arizona-fab-delivers-4-percent-more-yield-than-comparable-facilities-in-taiwan https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/ts... They're making 4nm chips too now, doing fine. https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/tsmcs-arizona-fab-21-is-already-making-4nm-chips-yield-and-quality-reportedly-on-par-with-taiwan-fabs https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/ts...
- osnium123 2y ago
  Yes but they only achieved this because they brought in a lot of workers from Taiwan. Half the workers in the factory are brought in from Taiwan. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/29/business/tsmc-phoenix-taiwan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/29/business/tsmc-phoenix-tai...
  - _t9ow 2y ago
    > Half the workers in the factory are brought in from Taiwan. Thus depriving Taiwan of its much-needed intellectual and human capital to sustain its Silicon Shield defence strategy. I frequently browse social media sites that are popular among the Taiwanese, and my impression is that they are generally unhappy about this state of affairs, seeing it as an act of economic coercion from the US.
    - fuckbrownpeople 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - jajko 2y ago
      > they are generally unhappy about this state of affairs, seeing it as an act of economic coercion from the US Welcome to how rest of the world feels like now

hindsightbias 2y ago

Why are we subsizing Apple when they have $200B in cash laying around? Repatriate and give them sme tax credit.

addicted 2y ago
Why would Apple repatriate their cash and pay any taxes? I don’t understand why they would care to move the money out of the countries where they earned that money and are likely to be expanding more than they are in the U.S. anyways.
- jajko 2y ago
  You mean Ireland?
- ashoeafoot 2y ago
  Cause the us is no save haven for money and ownership anymore? Look at other autocracies where the dictators give and take the riches ala russia.In a oligarchy with king, you are one bad emperor day at court away from loosing it.
Clubber 2y ago
A lot of subsidization is tax credits.