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Two hours at the Autobahn is just 200-250km in what is effectively optimal conditions (steady driving over long distances). That number doesn't check out. Most

Two hours at the Autobahn is just 200-250km in what is effectively optimal conditions (steady driving over long distances). That number doesn't check out. Most people drive significantly less than a full charge in a given day. Overnight or workplace charging solves like, 95% of car needs. And remember, it's not much of a problem if 5% or less of road cars need to still be (efficient) fossil fuel cars. Battery advances should mainly be used to make cars lighter at decent range, not to give more range at same weight. Electric cars are too heavy in the current state, fixing that should come first.

ipsi 2y ago
That matches my experience, in an admittedly slightly older car. Note that you'll rarely be charging over 80% because it's just too slow, and going under 5-10% is a bit too stressful, so practical range is probably 70-75% of maximum on longer trips. Less if it's winter and/or the AC is running. If I could rely on every Rasthof having multiple functional EV chargers, I think range anxiety would be far, far less of an issue for me, but as of now it's something that I do think about for longer trips, and do have to plan for.
- Svoka 2y ago
  why not charge it to 100% for a long trip? It literally says to do so.
  - michpoch 2y ago
    Because you’ll spend ages at the charging station?
    - Svoka 2y ago
      I had a road trip, and pretty much all the time I got 95-100% charge while having lunch with supercharges, which are everywhere. It takes 30 minutes to do it.
      - michpoch 2y ago
        So how many 30 minutes lunches are you having? One every 2 hours? > supercharges, which are everywhere Not really? That's the whole point, that the availability of fast chargers is still very low.
        Svoka 2y ago
        Every 3-4 hours I stop for a 30 minute meal. Ye, sounds reasonable.
  - mikeyouse 2y ago
    Of course you start the trip off at 100%, but the point is that charging speed varies substantially based on the SoC in the battery. So if you deplete most of your charge and need to stop, recharging to 80% takes substantially less time than topping it off to 100%. So if your battery range is 300 miles, you might get 280 on the first leg of your trip but will only be able to do maybe 220 on the second leg.
    - Svoka 2y ago
      Answered different thread - superchargers get from 5-10% to 95-100% in line 30 minutes. When we are on roadtrips I often have to go and unplug it so I don't get extra charges for idle. I know superchargers are not everywhere.
    - michpoch 2y ago
      > Of course you start the trip off at 100% Thats… not obvious at all. Unless you’re within the super small part of society that can charge at home, you might be as well starting with 20 or 30% - exactly the same as with a regular car.
      - dalyons 2y ago
        Maybe in Germany that’s “super small”, in the US ~70% of the population lives in sfh where that can be assumed.
        michpoch 2y ago
        Right, but that’s just a single, very un-typical country. Most people in developed countries live in cities. If you live in a city - you live in an apartment (unless you’re quite wealthy)z I expect that most people living in NYC do not have a single family house with a garage and a garden.
        arghwhat 2y ago
        It is not at all an un-typical country. It might even be the case for the majority of the US, most of which live outside New York City. Plus, cities in countries over on this side of the pond provide street charging and even have legislation about maximum distance to a charger. Parking garages and lots also provide charging. Not as convenient as living in a house with a charger where you can always plug in at night (and possibly use private solar cells for extra benefit), but good enough for most commuting.
michpoch 2y ago
> Two hours at the Autobahn is just 200-250km Much closer to 300km, unless you’re driving in high traffic. You’ll be able to keep around 140 km/h.
- arghwhat 2y ago
  Just because you can drive 140km/h doesn't mean you should - ignoring everything else, it's noisy and inefficient in any car. There's also speed limits of 130 down to 80 in many places, which knocks down the average speed.
  - Lanolderen 2y ago
    That's a preference thing. I just did a long drive in a van doing 90-100 pretty much the entire trip but on the bike I'm on the speed limit and up to ~240 long term whenever reasonable, in cars usually speed limit up to 200-210 long term. Noise and efficiency be damned, I just want to get off the highway/get where I'm going. On electrics it's ridiculous how quickly the battery gets drained if you don't drive slow though. On a Model 3 4XXhp the charge % falls like a brick at 233. An old Cayenne S lasts longer at 260.. Of course one's a city car and the other kinda meant for long distance but I was surprised to see it lose charge so quickly. If I were to get one I'd have to get used to driving like a truck or my trips will get a lot longer from sitting at chargers.
    - arghwhat 2y ago
      Sorry, but going 210+ km/h on any public road is absolutely idiotic on every level. Not only is it unsafe (no, there is no valid argument to suggest otherwise when mingling with traffic that is driving 130km/h slower or more than you on the same road), but it is also environmentally irresponsible. The fact that someone decides to make this trade-off purely based on their own impatience is the frustrating reason for why cars had to ship with speed limiters in the first place, and why the the autobahn might end up getting global speed limits which may or may not ruin the fun at places like the Nürburgring. And no, the range impact is no surprise nor isolated to electric cars. Even in a diesel polo bluemotion that on a good day can do over 1000 km on a tank, my experience is that spirited highway driving easily takes off 25% of the range, and I wouldn't be surprised if your described driving would leave it with less than 50% of the advertised range.
Gareth321 2y ago
I average about 140kph. Two hours on the Autobahn is around 280km. My 2021 Model Y is rated at 455km in ideal conditions, but has about 340km today in cold conditions at Autobahn speeds. Charging at stations isn't from 0-100. It's from 10-80%. This is what Tesla recommends because the last 20% takes even longer than the first 70%, and stresses the battery over time. 70% of 340km is 238km. So in reality, especially in the cold, I get even less than two hours between stops. I could get a little more than two hours if I had the upgraded Long Range Model Y. I'm not disputing that most people drive their cars short distances most of the time. But not all trips are as valuable to people. This concept is called marginal utility. I value my road trips going smoothly *FAR* more than I value my daily commutes going smoothly. For this reason, it's VERY important for me for range to be increased. I won't be buying another EV unless I can get above 1000km real world range. This would, in theory, result in similar trip times to my older ICE vehicle. I am not alone. I strongly believe that unless automakers give EV customers what they want, they won't see the growth they are hoping for. EV customers want a lot more range. You cannot reason them out of their desires.
- arghwhat 2y ago
  > My 2021 Model Y is rated at 455km in ideal conditions, but has about 340km today in cold conditions at Autobahn speeds. So you're down to 75% capacity, with the first 10% lost to the cold of winter and the rest lost to going 140km/h. The long range Model Y has 600 km rating in ideal conditions, and applying the same loss you'd be at 450 km. The same calculation is 466 km for the upcoming model, more than your car's ideal rating. So seems like you already have much better options available. You can also take 10 km/h off your speed to increase range notably (in any car), and you can go further for road trips outside the winter months. > I value my road trips going smoothly FAR more than I value my daily commutes going smoothly. For this reason, it's VERY important for me for range to be increased. Sure, but it remains a niche use-case, which is fine but unimportant for the industry and the general population and not what cars should be built or optimized for. Range is a liability whenever not in use (batteries are heavy), and cars are always better when optimized for the normal use-case. That's why there's long range models, and it's also fine to take such roadtrips in an ICE should need be.

ipsi 2y ago

That matches my experience, in an admittedly slightly older car. Note that you'll rarely be charging over 80% because it's just too slow, and going under 5-10% is a bit too stressful, so practical range is probably 70-75% of maximum on longer trips. Less if it's winter and/or the AC is running. If I could rely on every Rasthof having multiple functional EV chargers, I think range anxiety would be far, far less of an issue for me, but as of now it's something that I do think about for longer trips, and do have to plan for.

Svoka 2y ago
why not charge it to 100% for a long trip? It literally says to do so.
- michpoch 2y ago
  Because you’ll spend ages at the charging station?
  - Svoka 2y ago
    I had a road trip, and pretty much all the time I got 95-100% charge while having lunch with supercharges, which are everywhere. It takes 30 minutes to do it.
    - michpoch 2y ago
      So how many 30 minutes lunches are you having? One every 2 hours? > supercharges, which are everywhere Not really? That's the whole point, that the availability of fast chargers is still very low.
      - Svoka 2y ago
        Every 3-4 hours I stop for a 30 minute meal. Ye, sounds reasonable.
- mikeyouse 2y ago
  Of course you start the trip off at 100%, but the point is that charging speed varies substantially based on the SoC in the battery. So if you deplete most of your charge and need to stop, recharging to 80% takes substantially less time than topping it off to 100%. So if your battery range is 300 miles, you might get 280 on the first leg of your trip but will only be able to do maybe 220 on the second leg.
  - Svoka 2y ago
    Answered different thread - superchargers get from 5-10% to 95-100% in line 30 minutes. When we are on roadtrips I often have to go and unplug it so I don't get extra charges for idle. I know superchargers are not everywhere.
  - michpoch 2y ago
    > Of course you start the trip off at 100% Thats… not obvious at all. Unless you’re within the super small part of society that can charge at home, you might be as well starting with 20 or 30% - exactly the same as with a regular car.
    - dalyons 2y ago
      Maybe in Germany that’s “super small”, in the US ~70% of the population lives in sfh where that can be assumed.
      - michpoch 2y ago
        Right, but that’s just a single, very un-typical country. Most people in developed countries live in cities. If you live in a city - you live in an apartment (unless you’re quite wealthy)z I expect that most people living in NYC do not have a single family house with a garage and a garden.
        arghwhat 2y ago
        It is not at all an un-typical country. It might even be the case for the majority of the US, most of which live outside New York City. Plus, cities in countries over on this side of the pond provide street charging and even have legislation about maximum distance to a charger. Parking garages and lots also provide charging. Not as convenient as living in a house with a charger where you can always plug in at night (and possibly use private solar cells for extra benefit), but good enough for most commuting.

michpoch 2y ago

> Two hours at the Autobahn is just 200-250km Much closer to 300km, unless you’re driving in high traffic. You’ll be able to keep around 140 km/h.

arghwhat 2y ago
Just because you can drive 140km/h doesn't mean you should - ignoring everything else, it's noisy and inefficient in any car. There's also speed limits of 130 down to 80 in many places, which knocks down the average speed.
- Lanolderen 2y ago
  That's a preference thing. I just did a long drive in a van doing 90-100 pretty much the entire trip but on the bike I'm on the speed limit and up to ~240 long term whenever reasonable, in cars usually speed limit up to 200-210 long term. Noise and efficiency be damned, I just want to get off the highway/get where I'm going. On electrics it's ridiculous how quickly the battery gets drained if you don't drive slow though. On a Model 3 4XXhp the charge % falls like a brick at 233. An old Cayenne S lasts longer at 260.. Of course one's a city car and the other kinda meant for long distance but I was surprised to see it lose charge so quickly. If I were to get one I'd have to get used to driving like a truck or my trips will get a lot longer from sitting at chargers.
  - arghwhat 2y ago
    Sorry, but going 210+ km/h on any public road is absolutely idiotic on every level. Not only is it unsafe (no, there is no valid argument to suggest otherwise when mingling with traffic that is driving 130km/h slower or more than you on the same road), but it is also environmentally irresponsible. The fact that someone decides to make this trade-off purely based on their own impatience is the frustrating reason for why cars had to ship with speed limiters in the first place, and why the the autobahn might end up getting global speed limits which may or may not ruin the fun at places like the Nürburgring. And no, the range impact is no surprise nor isolated to electric cars. Even in a diesel polo bluemotion that on a good day can do over 1000 km on a tank, my experience is that spirited highway driving easily takes off 25% of the range, and I wouldn't be surprised if your described driving would leave it with less than 50% of the advertised range.

Gareth321 2y ago

I average about 140kph. Two hours on the Autobahn is around 280km. My 2021 Model Y is rated at 455km in ideal conditions, but has about 340km today in cold conditions at Autobahn speeds. Charging at stations isn't from 0-100. It's from 10-80%. This is what Tesla recommends because the last 20% takes even longer than the first 70%, and stresses the battery over time. 70% of 340km is 238km. So in reality, especially in the cold, I get even less than two hours between stops. I could get a little more than two hours if I had the upgraded Long Range Model Y. I'm not disputing that most people drive their cars short distances most of the time. But not all trips are as valuable to people. This concept is called marginal utility. I value my road trips going smoothly *FAR* more than I value my daily commutes going smoothly. For this reason, it's VERY important for me for range to be increased. I won't be buying another EV unless I can get above 1000km real world range. This would, in theory, result in similar trip times to my older ICE vehicle. I am not alone. I strongly believe that unless automakers give EV customers what they want, they won't see the growth they are hoping for. EV customers want a lot more range. You cannot reason them out of their desires.

arghwhat 2y ago
> My 2021 Model Y is rated at 455km in ideal conditions, but has about 340km today in cold conditions at Autobahn speeds. So you're down to 75% capacity, with the first 10% lost to the cold of winter and the rest lost to going 140km/h. The long range Model Y has 600 km rating in ideal conditions, and applying the same loss you'd be at 450 km. The same calculation is 466 km for the upcoming model, more than your car's ideal rating. So seems like you already have much better options available. You can also take 10 km/h off your speed to increase range notably (in any car), and you can go further for road trips outside the winter months. > I value my road trips going smoothly FAR more than I value my daily commutes going smoothly. For this reason, it's VERY important for me for range to be increased. Sure, but it remains a niche use-case, which is fine but unimportant for the industry and the general population and not what cars should be built or optimized for. Range is a liability whenever not in use (batteries are heavy), and cars are always better when optimized for the normal use-case. That's why there's long range models, and it's also fine to take such roadtrips in an ICE should need be.