4 ms·

A homeless guy shot another homeless guy on my university campus a few weeks ago. It's hard to consider that a school shooting even though it happened on-campus

by jjmarr 2y ago

A homeless guy shot another homeless guy on my university campus a few weeks ago. It's hard to consider that a school shooting even though it happened on-campus.

anigbrowl 2y ago
You probably would if you'd been in the immediate vicinity. Being shot at (even inadvertently) has a way of changing your persective.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Getting scared enough to change your perspective sounds like a reason to specifically not expect the people involved to be objective or correctly categorize the event.
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    IF there are people involved in a situation where there's a risk of death, that's an objective fact. There is no 'correct classification' issue here. The article collects all shootings that happen on school properties, you can derive subcategories from that. On the other hand, if your selection criteria is, say, 'shootings where someone tries to kill as many students/teachers as possible' you'll omit a lot of very real shooting incidents. It's better to have more data than less.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      That has almost nothing to do with what I said. But to address your new points, I think very broad collection is fine as long as people don't treat the raw entry count as a particularly useful number.
makeitdouble 2y ago
The impressive part is that kind of thing just naturally happens, and the discussion comes around whether it fits the school shooting framing or not.
- feliciousx 2y ago
  yeah, i can’t imagine raising my kid in an environment where they could actually die from a gunshot. i don’t understand how this is so normalised in a first world country
  - bagels 2y ago
    Is there some place where it is not possible to be shot? Even space is not safe, Russia brought guns with them.
    - makeitdouble 2y ago
      This could be one of the most difficult part to appropriately convey with words. There are guns everywhere, in every country. In the most peaceful places there will be some portion of cops allowed to wear guns, there will be hunters with permits etc. There will always be a non-zero chance to be shot. But whether that non-zero chance is 0.00001% or 1% makes a world of difference and will have deep impacts on how we live our life, talk to people, deal with confrontations. A low enough probability brings radical changes.
- tdeck 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_to_Prevent_This,%27_Says_Only_Nation_Where_This_Regularly_Happens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_to_Prevent_This,%27_...
  - jjmarr 2y ago
    Funnily enough, this was at Toronto Metropolitan University. We have a safe injection site on campus because it's downtown.
throwaway529 2y ago
[flagged]
DeathRay2K 2y ago
As a measure of the safety of schools, it seems perfectly reasonable to consider that a school shooting.
- seabird 2y ago
  Calling a crime-related shooting in the parking lot of a school at 1am on a Saturday a school shooting is not what most people are discussing when talking about school shootings.
  - thih9 2y ago
    I find it shocking that there can be different types of school shootings - and that there is time to discuss their classification.
    - tredre3 2y ago
      You're being obtuse. Assuming GP is stating the truth and it happened in a school's parking lot in the middle of the night, then the entire location is incidental and not meaningful in the least. It's simply not helpful to group them with the shootings that happen during school hours and target students/staff.
      - motorest 2y ago
        > You're being obtuse. No, not really. Think about it: who is somehow trying to argue away school shootings based on arbitrary assertions? Do you think you can argue away the gun violence out of school grounds? I would dare say that gun violence is bad all around, but here we are, trying to argue that some episodes should not count because of reasons. That would certainly reassure those attending those schools, as well as their family and communities.
        amenhotep 2y ago
        Arguing that gun violence is bad all round is fine. But this isn't that? It's exploiting the special emotive value of the term "school shooting" - something that will obviously be read to refer to a specific kind of circumstance that everyone understands - in an attempt to colour as many possible instances of gun violence with the seriousness with which the authors think they should be regarded. Or so it seems to me.
motorest 2y ago
> A homeless guy shot another homeless guy on my university campus a few weeks ago. It's hard to consider that a school shooting even though it happened on-campus. You find it hard to consider a school shooting a shooting taking place at a school?
- decremental 2y ago
  [dead]
- 827a 2y ago
  Depends on how the data is used. Also if you've ever been to a school like NYU, you'd naturally ask: Where does the school start and end?
  - motorest 2y ago
    > Depends on how the data is used. How can you misuse data on school shootings? Let's go a different way. Say you arrive home and you hear that there was a shooting at a school. What can possibly lead you to argue "oh that doesn't count, because X" ? > Also if you've ever been to a school like NYU, you'd naturally ask: Where does the school start and end? Why do you believe this is any relevant? I mean, to start off can you point out which incident fits your hypothetical scenario?
suraci 2y ago
wtf people are homeless homeless guys in a school a homeless guy in a school with a gun a homeless guy shot another in a school and all you care is if it's a school shooting??? wtf am i the only one who think all of these listed above are unacceptable???
- decremental 2y ago
  [dead]
- 827a 2y ago
  What are you doing, personally, to improve any of those things (beyond just wasting time on the internet)?
  - ccppurcell 2y ago
    Maybe they don't live in America. I have paid taxes in countries with good social safety nets for example, which helps alleviate homelessness.
  - suraci 2y ago
    well, that's a good question I'm afraid there's nothing i can do to improve this the only thing i can do is trying to avoid rationalizing it there are so many things like this that I'm incapable of changing
  - motorest 2y ago
    > What are you doing, personally, to improve any of those things (beyond just wasting time on the internet)? Pretending it's not a problem is a good start. From the looks of this thread, that seems to be a low-hanging fruit that's already out of reach for some. Also, resorting to ad-hominem arguments is a show of bad faith. Your random person on the street has absolutely no influence on how someone has access to a gun.
  - jjmarr 2y ago
    As the original commenter, I live in Toronto, Canada. It's pretty simple: homes are too expensive. One bedroom in an illegal sublet of an eighth of a house can be C$1000+/month. Why would anyone pay money to live in a de facto homeless shelter when one can be homeless for free? If we want to fix this, we need to build more supply. The system we have now has too much regulation and permitting designed to block development, so the only stuff that gets built is single family luxury housing or extremely large multifamily apartment complexes.

by jjmarr 2y ago

A homeless guy shot another homeless guy on my university campus a few weeks ago. It's hard to consider that a school shooting even though it happened on-campus.

anigbrowl 2y ago

You probably would if you'd been in the immediate vicinity. Being shot at (even inadvertently) has a way of changing your persective.

Dylan16807 2y ago
Getting scared enough to change your perspective sounds like a reason to specifically not expect the people involved to be objective or correctly categorize the event.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  IF there are people involved in a situation where there's a risk of death, that's an objective fact. There is no 'correct classification' issue here. The article collects all shootings that happen on school properties, you can derive subcategories from that. On the other hand, if your selection criteria is, say, 'shootings where someone tries to kill as many students/teachers as possible' you'll omit a lot of very real shooting incidents. It's better to have more data than less.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    That has almost nothing to do with what I said. But to address your new points, I think very broad collection is fine as long as people don't treat the raw entry count as a particularly useful number.

makeitdouble 2y ago

The impressive part is that kind of thing just naturally happens, and the discussion comes around whether it fits the school shooting framing or not.

feliciousx 2y ago
yeah, i can’t imagine raising my kid in an environment where they could actually die from a gunshot. i don’t understand how this is so normalised in a first world country
- bagels 2y ago
  Is there some place where it is not possible to be shot? Even space is not safe, Russia brought guns with them.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    This could be one of the most difficult part to appropriately convey with words. There are guns everywhere, in every country. In the most peaceful places there will be some portion of cops allowed to wear guns, there will be hunters with permits etc. There will always be a non-zero chance to be shot. But whether that non-zero chance is 0.00001% or 1% makes a world of difference and will have deep impacts on how we live our life, talk to people, deal with confrontations. A low enough probability brings radical changes.
tdeck 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_to_Prevent_This,%27_Says_Only_Nation_Where_This_Regularly_Happens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_to_Prevent_This,%27_...
- jjmarr 2y ago
  Funnily enough, this was at Toronto Metropolitan University. We have a safe injection site on campus because it's downtown.

throwaway529 2y ago

[flagged]

DeathRay2K 2y ago

As a measure of the safety of schools, it seems perfectly reasonable to consider that a school shooting.

seabird 2y ago
Calling a crime-related shooting in the parking lot of a school at 1am on a Saturday a school shooting is not what most people are discussing when talking about school shootings.
- thih9 2y ago
  I find it shocking that there can be different types of school shootings - and that there is time to discuss their classification.
  - tredre3 2y ago
    You're being obtuse. Assuming GP is stating the truth and it happened in a school's parking lot in the middle of the night, then the entire location is incidental and not meaningful in the least. It's simply not helpful to group them with the shootings that happen during school hours and target students/staff.
    - motorest 2y ago
      > You're being obtuse. No, not really. Think about it: who is somehow trying to argue away school shootings based on arbitrary assertions? Do you think you can argue away the gun violence out of school grounds? I would dare say that gun violence is bad all around, but here we are, trying to argue that some episodes should not count because of reasons. That would certainly reassure those attending those schools, as well as their family and communities.
      - amenhotep 2y ago
        Arguing that gun violence is bad all round is fine. But this isn't that? It's exploiting the special emotive value of the term "school shooting" - something that will obviously be read to refer to a specific kind of circumstance that everyone understands - in an attempt to colour as many possible instances of gun violence with the seriousness with which the authors think they should be regarded. Or so it seems to me.

motorest 2y ago

> A homeless guy shot another homeless guy on my university campus a few weeks ago. It's hard to consider that a school shooting even though it happened on-campus. You find it hard to consider a school shooting a shooting taking place at a school?

decremental 2y ago
[dead]
827a 2y ago
Depends on how the data is used. Also if you've ever been to a school like NYU, you'd naturally ask: Where does the school start and end?
- motorest 2y ago
  > Depends on how the data is used. How can you misuse data on school shootings? Let's go a different way. Say you arrive home and you hear that there was a shooting at a school. What can possibly lead you to argue "oh that doesn't count, because X" ? > Also if you've ever been to a school like NYU, you'd naturally ask: Where does the school start and end? Why do you believe this is any relevant? I mean, to start off can you point out which incident fits your hypothetical scenario?

suraci 2y ago

wtf people are homeless homeless guys in a school a homeless guy in a school with a gun a homeless guy shot another in a school and all you care is if it's a school shooting??? wtf am i the only one who think all of these listed above are unacceptable???

decremental 2y ago
[dead]
827a 2y ago
What are you doing, personally, to improve any of those things (beyond just wasting time on the internet)?
- ccppurcell 2y ago
  Maybe they don't live in America. I have paid taxes in countries with good social safety nets for example, which helps alleviate homelessness.
- suraci 2y ago
  well, that's a good question I'm afraid there's nothing i can do to improve this the only thing i can do is trying to avoid rationalizing it there are so many things like this that I'm incapable of changing
- motorest 2y ago
  > What are you doing, personally, to improve any of those things (beyond just wasting time on the internet)? Pretending it's not a problem is a good start. From the looks of this thread, that seems to be a low-hanging fruit that's already out of reach for some. Also, resorting to ad-hominem arguments is a show of bad faith. Your random person on the street has absolutely no influence on how someone has access to a gun.
- jjmarr 2y ago
  As the original commenter, I live in Toronto, Canada. It's pretty simple: homes are too expensive. One bedroom in an illegal sublet of an eighth of a house can be C$1000+/month. Why would anyone pay money to live in a de facto homeless shelter when one can be homeless for free? If we want to fix this, we need to build more supply. The system we have now has too much regulation and permitting designed to block development, so the only stuff that gets built is single family luxury housing or extremely large multifamily apartment complexes.