9 ms·

Leveled the playing field? Strides in relative wages? See the chart here under the section labeled "Inflation Adjusted Reality" and you'll see how incorrect y

by prng2021 2y ago

Leveled the playing field? Strides in relative wages? See the chart here under the section labeled "Inflation Adjusted Reality" and you'll see how incorrect your statements are: https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2025/01/09/u-s-household-incomes-a-50-year-perspective https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2025/01/0... We still live in a country where federal minimum wage doesn't change for decades. You should also research the concept of subminimum wages and I think you'll be shocked. If you already knew about all of the above and still think there was anything close to a leveling of the playing field, you're choosing to ignore facts.

Aurornis 2y ago
> We still live in a country where federal minimum wage doesn't change for decades. Very few people make minimum wage. It’s basically impossible to find a minimum wage job in my city because even the post office and fast food restaurants are paying $19/hr or more, and they advertise it on signs out front. I don’t even live in a HCOL city. The focus on federal minimum wage has become a red herring.
- prng2021 2y ago
  I see multiple posts making your same claim and it's sad to see how many people live in a wealth bubble and haven't researched the facts at all. When I was young worked in the restaurant industry in a state that has a tipped minimum wage. The hourly pay for waiters and waitresses was and still is under $3/hr in that state. The rest of your pay is completely dependent on tips. This is the reality folks. Not the tech company that gives you free catered lunch. This page has a table of the many states that have a shockingly low tipped minimum wage: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    > haven't researched the facts at all. I have researched the facts. The percentage of people working minimum wage jobs is around 1% as of 2023. Likely under 1% now if the trend holds: https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ > When I was young… We’re talking about wages in 2025, not when you were young. The point is that the wage landscape has changed a lot from what you’re remembering. > This is the reality folks. Not the tech company that gives you free catered lunch. No, I’m not talking about salaried jobs. I’m specifically talking about hourly wage jobs As for tipped jobs: Many efforts to eliminate tipped jobs have floundered specifically because the people in tipped jobs prefer their earnings with tips included. This is partially due to the way that tip earnings are underreported significantly on taxes when people pay in cash (untracked by computer systems) so actual tipped earnings are higher. Regardless, looking at tipped minimum wages is very dishonest because the entire definition is that these people are also getting tips. Employers are obligated to make up any difference if their tips do not bring them up to the minimum wage. Tipped minimum wage doesn’t literally mean someone can earn $3/hour. It’s right there in the first paragraph of that Wikipedia page you linked.
    - prng2021 2y ago
      When you say the wage landscape has changed, yep you're right. It's continuing to get worse: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-... As for states with a tipped minimum wage, let me ask you a math problem. Imagine you work at a restaurant and people tip 15-20% per table regardless of the state you work in. Would you make more money each day if your base wage was $3/hr like the tipped minimum wage in Pennsylvania or $16/hr like in California?
      - SR2Z 2y ago
        If a dish at a restaurant quadruples in price, there will be fewer customers to order it - a LOT fewer, and probably enough to kill the business. The minimum wage is not a magical tool that causes money to appear in working class pockets. Yes, tipped workers would probably make less money with a higher minimum wage under this system. The "probably" is actually irrelevant - people working tipped jobs very clearly don't want to lose tips and will resist attempts to straighten out the system. I also cannot help but notice that your article is from the very start of 2020, and the vast majority of inequality reduction has happened after COVID. Perhaps your take would make more sense if you relied on more recent data.
      - bdzr 2y ago
        Why not raise it to $50/hr? While we're printing money without side effects we might as well go big.
        soco 2y ago
        It's difficult to believe there are (so many) countries in this world who somehow have this under control, I mean the link between minimum wage and a certain level of living safety.
  - therealpygon 2y ago
    “The rest or your pay is completely dependent on tips” is not accurate. You seem to focus on the hourly rate, but you don’t seem to mention that those same people are still guaranteed Federal minimum wage if they don’t make enough tips to exceed that amount. Seems odd to not be aware of that after having “worked in the restaurant industry in a state that had a tipped wage”. Moreover, it is a Federal tipped wage, not based on a state law. State law can only require higher tipped wages or disallow such wages, but is not the law that permits them.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  This is putting of big 'I'm insolated in a small area of the country' as well as 'who cares this doesn't apply where I live' vibes.
ajross 2y ago
The vast majority of US workers are employed in jurisdictions with minimum wages much higher than the federal limit. It's true the national law is inadequate, and there are a handful of genuinely impoverished places where that matters. But almost every metro area is at $15/hr or higher now. Also your article is about long term trends, and has data that ends in 2022 it looks like. In point of fact real wages since the pandemic have gone up, and by a historically notable amount.
- treyd 2y ago
  $15/hr is about $2500/mo or $30k/yr gross, which is not enough to live alone is most large cities without rent assistance. Even with a roommate sharing a 2B it cutting it close and definitely not something you can build up substantial savings with. If wages kept up with inflation since the 70s, the minimum wage would be around $23/hr, not even accounting for increases in worker productivity.
  - ajross 2y ago
    No, Federal minimum wage was $1.60/hr from 1968-1974. That's $10.24 in 2024 dollars, or significantly less than what works expect from low wage jobs today. And 1974 was a trough, it was raised multiple times in the late 70's. I remain frustrated at the extent to which fake info gets distributed in discussions like this. You can look this stuff up! And in fact US workers[1] are wealthier today than they ever have been. [1] There's a distasteful caveat though: white, male US workers in 1974 were doing much better relative to their peers than the same demographic is today. But minorities and women have done really well. A lot of the concern among the very male HN set over "workers" actually turns out to be an expression of frustration over social change and not economics at all.
- spigottoday 2y ago
  In Philadelphia PA wait staff in restaurants are paid less than $3 an hour. Yes they get tips. So does the wait staff in NYC that get $15 an hour. I was told this by my daughter who worked in both places. Any discrepancy with the $ is mine.
- 2y ago
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
> subminimum What a word! That’s so Newspeak-y.

Aurornis 2y ago

> We still live in a country where federal minimum wage doesn't change for decades. Very few people make minimum wage. It’s basically impossible to find a minimum wage job in my city because even the post office and fast food restaurants are paying $19/hr or more, and they advertise it on signs out front. I don’t even live in a HCOL city. The focus on federal minimum wage has become a red herring.

prng2021 2y ago
I see multiple posts making your same claim and it's sad to see how many people live in a wealth bubble and haven't researched the facts at all. When I was young worked in the restaurant industry in a state that has a tipped minimum wage. The hourly pay for waiters and waitresses was and still is under $3/hr in that state. The rest of your pay is completely dependent on tips. This is the reality folks. Not the tech company that gives you free catered lunch. This page has a table of the many states that have a shockingly low tipped minimum wage: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage
- Aurornis 2y ago
  > haven't researched the facts at all. I have researched the facts. The percentage of people working minimum wage jobs is around 1% as of 2023. Likely under 1% now if the trend holds: https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ > When I was young… We’re talking about wages in 2025, not when you were young. The point is that the wage landscape has changed a lot from what you’re remembering. > This is the reality folks. Not the tech company that gives you free catered lunch. No, I’m not talking about salaried jobs. I’m specifically talking about hourly wage jobs As for tipped jobs: Many efforts to eliminate tipped jobs have floundered specifically because the people in tipped jobs prefer their earnings with tips included. This is partially due to the way that tip earnings are underreported significantly on taxes when people pay in cash (untracked by computer systems) so actual tipped earnings are higher. Regardless, looking at tipped minimum wages is very dishonest because the entire definition is that these people are also getting tips. Employers are obligated to make up any difference if their tips do not bring them up to the minimum wage. Tipped minimum wage doesn’t literally mean someone can earn $3/hour. It’s right there in the first paragraph of that Wikipedia page you linked.
  - prng2021 2y ago
    When you say the wage landscape has changed, yep you're right. It's continuing to get worse: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-... As for states with a tipped minimum wage, let me ask you a math problem. Imagine you work at a restaurant and people tip 15-20% per table regardless of the state you work in. Would you make more money each day if your base wage was $3/hr like the tipped minimum wage in Pennsylvania or $16/hr like in California?
    - SR2Z 2y ago
      If a dish at a restaurant quadruples in price, there will be fewer customers to order it - a LOT fewer, and probably enough to kill the business. The minimum wage is not a magical tool that causes money to appear in working class pockets. Yes, tipped workers would probably make less money with a higher minimum wage under this system. The "probably" is actually irrelevant - people working tipped jobs very clearly don't want to lose tips and will resist attempts to straighten out the system. I also cannot help but notice that your article is from the very start of 2020, and the vast majority of inequality reduction has happened after COVID. Perhaps your take would make more sense if you relied on more recent data.
    - bdzr 2y ago
      Why not raise it to $50/hr? While we're printing money without side effects we might as well go big.
      - soco 2y ago
        It's difficult to believe there are (so many) countries in this world who somehow have this under control, I mean the link between minimum wage and a certain level of living safety.
- therealpygon 2y ago
  “The rest or your pay is completely dependent on tips” is not accurate. You seem to focus on the hourly rate, but you don’t seem to mention that those same people are still guaranteed Federal minimum wage if they don’t make enough tips to exceed that amount. Seems odd to not be aware of that after having “worked in the restaurant industry in a state that had a tipped wage”. Moreover, it is a Federal tipped wage, not based on a state law. State law can only require higher tipped wages or disallow such wages, but is not the law that permits them.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
This is putting of big 'I'm insolated in a small area of the country' as well as 'who cares this doesn't apply where I live' vibes.

ajross 2y ago

The vast majority of US workers are employed in jurisdictions with minimum wages much higher than the federal limit. It's true the national law is inadequate, and there are a handful of genuinely impoverished places where that matters. But almost every metro area is at $15/hr or higher now. Also your article is about long term trends, and has data that ends in 2022 it looks like. In point of fact real wages since the pandemic have gone up, and by a historically notable amount.

treyd 2y ago
$15/hr is about $2500/mo or $30k/yr gross, which is not enough to live alone is most large cities without rent assistance. Even with a roommate sharing a 2B it cutting it close and definitely not something you can build up substantial savings with. If wages kept up with inflation since the 70s, the minimum wage would be around $23/hr, not even accounting for increases in worker productivity.
- ajross 2y ago
  No, Federal minimum wage was $1.60/hr from 1968-1974. That's $10.24 in 2024 dollars, or significantly less than what works expect from low wage jobs today. And 1974 was a trough, it was raised multiple times in the late 70's. I remain frustrated at the extent to which fake info gets distributed in discussions like this. You can look this stuff up! And in fact US workers[1] are wealthier today than they ever have been. [1] There's a distasteful caveat though: white, male US workers in 1974 were doing much better relative to their peers than the same demographic is today. But minorities and women have done really well. A lot of the concern among the very male HN set over "workers" actually turns out to be an expression of frustration over social change and not economics at all.
spigottoday 2y ago
In Philadelphia PA wait staff in restaurants are paid less than $3 an hour. Yes they get tips. So does the wait staff in NYC that get $15 an hour. I was told this by my daughter who worked in both places. Any discrepancy with the $ is mine.
2y ago

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago

> subminimum What a word! That’s so Newspeak-y.