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I don't understand this 'recall' language. Isn't it just a software update? "The company has released an over-the-air software update to fix the issue, it said

by Oarch 2y ago

I don't understand this 'recall' language. Isn't it just a software update? "The company has released an over-the-air software update to fix the issue, it said."

flounder3 2y ago
It’s the law. OTA updates are not instant nor are they 100% guaranteed, so consumers must be notified.
- xur17 2y ago
  Sounds efficient.
  - wwweston 2y ago
    The economy of thought that you brought to that comment could be seen as impressively efficient, depending on the outcome you want to optimize for given inputs.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    To notify consumers of safety issues using the existing rails that are used to notify consumers of safety issues?
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    It's not meant to be efficient; it's meant to be thorough, and auditable, and if required, able to be litigated in court.
    - dmix 2y ago
      It's also used in warranty claims in the private market.
- lubujackson 2y ago
  So just to be clear: - they knew the assist was dangerously broken - while people drove around with this dangerous code running they worked on improving the code so they could say it is now "fixed" - released the update I see how this is the most... efficient... way to handle the situation, from a monetary perspective. But this is not how I, or anyone I know, would handle life-critical code. Not to bring politics into yet another thread, but this is not a smart or human way to handle things. First, you disable the damn road assist. It's an optional feature, FFS!
  - _23sd 2y ago
    I think "power steering assist" here is another technical term that misleads people who aren't car nerds. It's not some kind of lane assist feature, it's the system that makes the steering wheel easy to turn at low speeds. Anyone who's used to driving cars built after 1950 or so would not consider it an optional feature.
wwweston 2y ago
I don't have expertise in why the language is used, but I'd imagine: * this is the language traditionally used in automobiles * the term probably has a specific meaning with regulatory and culturally established implications throughout organizations that touch maintenance and safety * it may get more meaningful for whatever subset of autos that didn't/can't receive the OTA update
- curo 2y ago
  Or it's just a misleading headline
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    If only a 5 second Google search could tell you: https://autocrypt.io/transformation-of-vehicle-recall/ https://autocrypt.io/transformation-of-vehicle-recall/
    - curo 2y ago
      The fact that this thread is full of people who envisioned a physical recall is evidence enough the word is misleading. If reuters was an industry journal, sure.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        Uhh the point is for people to take it seriously. Which works.
  - bumby 2y ago
    The headline is correctly using the term according to the NHTSA definition as a requirement for the manufacturer to fix an unreasonable safety issue. Whether it is OTA does not change the fact that it is a recall any more than if a manufacturer sent someone onsite to fix a mechanical issue instead of having the vehicle owner bring it in.
MBCook 2y ago
Do we have to go over this every time? Recall has a specific legal meaning for calls. That’s why it’s used. The law authorizes the government to demand “recalls”. It does not specify how that’s done. Software update, dealership visit, roaming packs of mechanics. This isn’t a conspiracy to make Tesla look bad, it’s the correct term.
- Oarch 2y ago
  Is it time for a new term? It may be correct but it also seems to be profoundly misunderstood by many.
  - Tadpole9181 2y ago
    You're welcome to go lobby congress to change it. But it is a legal requirement to say "recall", because that is the explicitly named power that they have been given by congress.
    - theultdev 2y ago
      Is it a legal requirement to be ambiguous in the article title? Simply qualifying the overloaded term as "software recall" would suffice. Never happens though.
      - saalweachter 2y ago
        The last physical recall I had to take a car in was to have a zip tie affixed to some line or wire to minimize the chance of wear over time. Should we have a separate term for "a recall that isn't related to losing control of the vehicle and crashing"? It sounds bad to associate my car needing a zip tie to minimize wear with your car needing a software patch to not crash.
        theultdev 2y ago
        nope, just "software recall" and "hardware recall" terms. that way you know whether to make sure you got the update or know to take the car in physically. severity for both can differ, that's what the details are for.
ergocoder 2y ago
it's an outdated legalese and the media capitalizes on it for clicks. They could have clarified that it was a software update in the title. But they never do.
- threeseed 2y ago
  Because the media is doing its job and using the correct term. It's not going to be an OTA software update for everyone.
michaelt 2y ago
1. Once upon a time, cars had no software and no OTA updates. If there was a serious defect it had to be returned to a dealership for the defect to be rectified. This was a recall, i.e. an official order to return to a place. The NHTSA has the authority to require and coordinate recalls. 2. Then cars got software, but had no OTA updates. If there was a serious software defect, the car had to be returned to a dealership for them to install a software update. This was still called a recall - you still have to take the car back to the dealership, after all, and the NHTSA is still involved. 3. Then cars started receiving OTA software updates. As 2. established that a software update for a serious defect is called a 'recall', and the NHTSA is still involved through their recall-coordination authority, this is still called a recall even though the car doesn't have to be returned to a place.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  The term recall has specific legal meaning that differentiates it from other notices like TSBs. A recall must be issued when an issue brings a vehicle out of compliance with FMVSS (the regulations determining what's road legal). Manufacturers and dealerships are not allowed to sell vehicles with outstanding recalls, and they're usually required to fix recalls regardless of warranty status for affected consumers. It doesn't say anything about the actual solution (which might be as trivial as a new manual), only the legal responsibilities that come with the notice.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- NathanKP 2y ago
  You are missing: 4. Then cars started receiving OTA software updates, but a significant percentage of the cars already suffer irreparable damage to their computers before they installed the update, and therefore still have to be taken to the Tesla service center for repairs. It's a "recall" because frankly there is still a good chance you are going to have to go into a service center, even if the OTA update works.
LargeWu 2y ago
"It's just an OTA software update" The way the fix is applied is irrelevant. The important thing is that their vehicles have a safety issue and it needs to be fixed and documented for each vehicle.
- theultdev 2y ago
  It's completely relevant. The term shouldn't be overloaded. When you see a recall you shouldn't have to wonder if it's a download or if you need to take the car in.
  - flounder3 2y ago
    A recall means “PAY ATTENTION! Something may still be broken!” The recall will mention how to get it fixed, regardless of a OTA update or service visit. The lack of a mere download could mean the difference between life and death.
reverendsteveii 2y ago
I can't speak for the auto industry but I used to work in durable medical equipment and anything that involved fixing devices that are already in the field is a recall for legal purposes. Adding new functionality wasn't a recall, but if we claimed a device did a thing and then realized that we have to change the hardware or software in order to actually make the device do the thing, then that was a recall (technically a CAPA, "corrective or preventive action").
horns4lyfe 2y ago
[flagged]
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Now the media is making Tesla's code bad and features unsafe. Is there any low the media won't reach for?
itishappy 2y ago
They release software updates too. This is different. https://www.tesla.com/support/software-updates https://www.tesla.com/support/software-updates
hansvm 2y ago
- "Recall" statistics are a factor in new car purchases. I don't particularly care if the fix is OTA, but I do care about a brand's propensity for releasing safety-critical garbage. Skirting around those aggregations and consumer reports by skirting around the language is good for Tesla and not for purchasers. - If it's not a "recall," there isn't much of a government paper trail for consumers when the OTA update goes awry. You don't even know if you should have such and such version of the software, and if the patches are non-linear then it's non-obvious even to experts examining your car's current status whether it's been applied or not. - OTA updates for cars seem fraught with peril. Have you ever seen a bricked Tesla driving down the road? It's terrifying. Have you ever been the driver of such a Tesla while not in cell range? It's more terrifying because you don't know if the charge will last till you have cell service or what will happen if you're stuck in the middle of nowhere. Did they ensure the update would only apply after you've turned the car off and on again? Even if they did, if you drove your car and the steering/brakes/gas suddenly behaved differently, do you think you'd be more or less likely to crash? Whether they can technically solve the thing with an OTA update or not, it seems prudent (not that it's happening yet) to force people to make a proactive decision to opt in to the change.
- concordDance 2y ago
  > Have you ever seen a bricked Tesla driving down the road? It's terrifying. How often has this happened?
  - hansvm 2y ago
    At least once to every one of my friends with a Tesla. Apparently it's safe enough (your fly-by-wire brakes and whatnot still work), but not even having a speedometer available while you're driving doesn't give a lot of confidence in the machine you're in (and it might not be obvious till you test them that brakes will work or that you'll be able to start the car if you stop it somewhere without cell coverage).
    - foobazgt 2y ago
      You're talking about the MCU (media control unit), which is completely isolated from the critical driving functions of the vehicle. As its name implies, this unit mostly drives the vehicle's entertainment functions. It's actually incredibly confidence-inspiring to me to know that the MCU can go entirely offline and the vehicle continues to function at 100%. This seems like it must be table-stakes for all vehicles, but I've seen more surprising things. I'm not sure why you mention cell coverage, given that it is entirely unrelated.
Barracoon 2y ago
Perhaps this FAQ will help you https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-11/MVSDefectsandRecalls-Update_112124_v1a_tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-11/MVSDefec...
gamblor956 2y ago
A "recall" is a legal term of art referring to a (voluntary or government-mandated) fix for a safety-related issue affecting a motor vehicle. Recall has multiple meanings; in this context the meaning intended was "to summon back" to a location specified by the manufacturer so that the fix could be implemented. In modern times, "recall" for vehicles has been conflated with the term-of-art "recall" that is used with respect to consumer products, for which the intended meaning was "to return or revoke." (For those who don't see the difference: the first meaning is temporary, the second is permanent.)

by Oarch 2y ago

I don't understand this 'recall' language. Isn't it just a software update? "The company has released an over-the-air software update to fix the issue, it said."

flounder3 2y ago

It’s the law. OTA updates are not instant nor are they 100% guaranteed, so consumers must be notified.

xur17 2y ago
Sounds efficient.
- wwweston 2y ago
  The economy of thought that you brought to that comment could be seen as impressively efficient, depending on the outcome you want to optimize for given inputs.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  To notify consumers of safety issues using the existing rails that are used to notify consumers of safety issues?
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  It's not meant to be efficient; it's meant to be thorough, and auditable, and if required, able to be litigated in court.
  - dmix 2y ago
    It's also used in warranty claims in the private market.
lubujackson 2y ago
So just to be clear: - they knew the assist was dangerously broken - while people drove around with this dangerous code running they worked on improving the code so they could say it is now "fixed" - released the update I see how this is the most... efficient... way to handle the situation, from a monetary perspective. But this is not how I, or anyone I know, would handle life-critical code. Not to bring politics into yet another thread, but this is not a smart or human way to handle things. First, you disable the damn road assist. It's an optional feature, FFS!
- _23sd 2y ago
  I think "power steering assist" here is another technical term that misleads people who aren't car nerds. It's not some kind of lane assist feature, it's the system that makes the steering wheel easy to turn at low speeds. Anyone who's used to driving cars built after 1950 or so would not consider it an optional feature.

wwweston 2y ago

I don't have expertise in why the language is used, but I'd imagine: * this is the language traditionally used in automobiles * the term probably has a specific meaning with regulatory and culturally established implications throughout organizations that touch maintenance and safety * it may get more meaningful for whatever subset of autos that didn't/can't receive the OTA update

curo 2y ago
Or it's just a misleading headline
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  If only a 5 second Google search could tell you: https://autocrypt.io/transformation-of-vehicle-recall/ https://autocrypt.io/transformation-of-vehicle-recall/
  - curo 2y ago
    The fact that this thread is full of people who envisioned a physical recall is evidence enough the word is misleading. If reuters was an industry journal, sure.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      Uhh the point is for people to take it seriously. Which works.
- bumby 2y ago
  The headline is correctly using the term according to the NHTSA definition as a requirement for the manufacturer to fix an unreasonable safety issue. Whether it is OTA does not change the fact that it is a recall any more than if a manufacturer sent someone onsite to fix a mechanical issue instead of having the vehicle owner bring it in.

MBCook 2y ago

Do we have to go over this every time? Recall has a specific legal meaning for calls. That’s why it’s used. The law authorizes the government to demand “recalls”. It does not specify how that’s done. Software update, dealership visit, roaming packs of mechanics. This isn’t a conspiracy to make Tesla look bad, it’s the correct term.

Oarch 2y ago
Is it time for a new term? It may be correct but it also seems to be profoundly misunderstood by many.
- Tadpole9181 2y ago
  You're welcome to go lobby congress to change it. But it is a legal requirement to say "recall", because that is the explicitly named power that they have been given by congress.
  - theultdev 2y ago
    Is it a legal requirement to be ambiguous in the article title? Simply qualifying the overloaded term as "software recall" would suffice. Never happens though.
    - saalweachter 2y ago
      The last physical recall I had to take a car in was to have a zip tie affixed to some line or wire to minimize the chance of wear over time. Should we have a separate term for "a recall that isn't related to losing control of the vehicle and crashing"? It sounds bad to associate my car needing a zip tie to minimize wear with your car needing a software patch to not crash.
      - theultdev 2y ago
        nope, just "software recall" and "hardware recall" terms. that way you know whether to make sure you got the update or know to take the car in physically. severity for both can differ, that's what the details are for.

ergocoder 2y ago

it's an outdated legalese and the media capitalizes on it for clicks. They could have clarified that it was a software update in the title. But they never do.

threeseed 2y ago
Because the media is doing its job and using the correct term. It's not going to be an OTA software update for everyone.

michaelt 2y ago

1. Once upon a time, cars had no software and no OTA updates. If there was a serious defect it had to be returned to a dealership for the defect to be rectified. This was a recall, i.e. an official order to return to a place. The NHTSA has the authority to require and coordinate recalls. 2. Then cars got software, but had no OTA updates. If there was a serious software defect, the car had to be returned to a dealership for them to install a software update. This was still called a recall - you still have to take the car back to the dealership, after all, and the NHTSA is still involved. 3. Then cars started receiving OTA software updates. As 2. established that a software update for a serious defect is called a 'recall', and the NHTSA is still involved through their recall-coordination authority, this is still called a recall even though the car doesn't have to be returned to a place.

AlotOfReading 2y ago
The term recall has specific legal meaning that differentiates it from other notices like TSBs. A recall must be issued when an issue brings a vehicle out of compliance with FMVSS (the regulations determining what's road legal). Manufacturers and dealerships are not allowed to sell vehicles with outstanding recalls, and they're usually required to fix recalls regardless of warranty status for affected consumers. It doesn't say anything about the actual solution (which might be as trivial as a new manual), only the legal responsibilities that come with the notice.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
NathanKP 2y ago
You are missing: 4. Then cars started receiving OTA software updates, but a significant percentage of the cars already suffer irreparable damage to their computers before they installed the update, and therefore still have to be taken to the Tesla service center for repairs. It's a "recall" because frankly there is still a good chance you are going to have to go into a service center, even if the OTA update works.

LargeWu 2y ago

"It's just an OTA software update" The way the fix is applied is irrelevant. The important thing is that their vehicles have a safety issue and it needs to be fixed and documented for each vehicle.

theultdev 2y ago
It's completely relevant. The term shouldn't be overloaded. When you see a recall you shouldn't have to wonder if it's a download or if you need to take the car in.
- flounder3 2y ago
  A recall means “PAY ATTENTION! Something may still be broken!” The recall will mention how to get it fixed, regardless of a OTA update or service visit. The lack of a mere download could mean the difference between life and death.

reverendsteveii 2y ago

I can't speak for the auto industry but I used to work in durable medical equipment and anything that involved fixing devices that are already in the field is a recall for legal purposes. Adding new functionality wasn't a recall, but if we claimed a device did a thing and then realized that we have to change the hardware or software in order to actually make the device do the thing, then that was a recall (technically a CAPA, "corrective or preventive action").

horns4lyfe 2y ago

[flagged]

_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Now the media is making Tesla's code bad and features unsafe. Is there any low the media won't reach for?

itishappy 2y ago

They release software updates too. This is different. https://www.tesla.com/support/software-updates https://www.tesla.com/support/software-updates

hansvm 2y ago

- "Recall" statistics are a factor in new car purchases. I don't particularly care if the fix is OTA, but I do care about a brand's propensity for releasing safety-critical garbage. Skirting around those aggregations and consumer reports by skirting around the language is good for Tesla and not for purchasers. - If it's not a "recall," there isn't much of a government paper trail for consumers when the OTA update goes awry. You don't even know if you should have such and such version of the software, and if the patches are non-linear then it's non-obvious even to experts examining your car's current status whether it's been applied or not. - OTA updates for cars seem fraught with peril. Have you ever seen a bricked Tesla driving down the road? It's terrifying. Have you ever been the driver of such a Tesla while not in cell range? It's more terrifying because you don't know if the charge will last till you have cell service or what will happen if you're stuck in the middle of nowhere. Did they ensure the update would only apply after you've turned the car off and on again? Even if they did, if you drove your car and the steering/brakes/gas suddenly behaved differently, do you think you'd be more or less likely to crash? Whether they can technically solve the thing with an OTA update or not, it seems prudent (not that it's happening yet) to force people to make a proactive decision to opt in to the change.

concordDance 2y ago
> Have you ever seen a bricked Tesla driving down the road? It's terrifying. How often has this happened?
- hansvm 2y ago
  At least once to every one of my friends with a Tesla. Apparently it's safe enough (your fly-by-wire brakes and whatnot still work), but not even having a speedometer available while you're driving doesn't give a lot of confidence in the machine you're in (and it might not be obvious till you test them that brakes will work or that you'll be able to start the car if you stop it somewhere without cell coverage).
  - foobazgt 2y ago
    You're talking about the MCU (media control unit), which is completely isolated from the critical driving functions of the vehicle. As its name implies, this unit mostly drives the vehicle's entertainment functions. It's actually incredibly confidence-inspiring to me to know that the MCU can go entirely offline and the vehicle continues to function at 100%. This seems like it must be table-stakes for all vehicles, but I've seen more surprising things. I'm not sure why you mention cell coverage, given that it is entirely unrelated.

Barracoon 2y ago

Perhaps this FAQ will help you https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-11/MVSDefectsandRecalls-Update_112124_v1a_tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-11/MVSDefec...

gamblor956 2y ago

A "recall" is a legal term of art referring to a (voluntary or government-mandated) fix for a safety-related issue affecting a motor vehicle. Recall has multiple meanings; in this context the meaning intended was "to summon back" to a location specified by the manufacturer so that the fix could be implemented. In modern times, "recall" for vehicles has been conflated with the term-of-art "recall" that is used with respect to consumer products, for which the intended meaning was "to return or revoke." (For those who don't see the difference: the first meaning is temporary, the second is permanent.)