4 ms·

"Test your adblocker" websites can harm users and the adblocker ecosystem

71 points by ReadCarlBarks 2y ago

saagarjha 2y ago
Ok, where’s your adblocker test then?
- 486sx33 2y ago
  Right, either release a better quality Adblock tester or stop whining? People need to test somehow.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    What do you expect from an advertising blog post? Of course they're going to shit on everyone else while claiming theirs is best in class. Otherwise, what would be the point. Does anyone other than bots/scrapers read these things? This is a classic marketing ploy that's just a twist of "repeat the lie often enough it becomes truth".
- outermosthouse 2y ago
  They offer some testing sites at the bottom of the article: "Brave will continue to work with legitimate testing sites like https://privacytests.org https://privacytests.org and https://coveryourtracks.eff.org https://coveryourtracks.eff.org"
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    Neither of those solve the problem of “is my adblocker on”. Maybe the Brave people should have done some research on why people use these sites rather than making a long blog post explaining why they are bad, actually, while not providing any alternatives for the things people want.
  - bitpush 2y ago
    "Will continue to work with" That's like saying bulletproof glass makers working with gun makers. How can you trust either when both are "working together?" This comes across as some sites make Brave look bad, and they are calling them out for whatever reason. -- Also of note - De Beers owns the diamond certification company, which is convinient because why not.
    - dirkragnarok 2y ago
      Are you suggesting that the EFF shouldn't be trusted because Brave works with them to suggest new tests and point out broken ones?
      - bitpush 2y ago
        "broken" you say? I'm curious what Brave would consider to be broken. "Gee, we found one of your tests is _incorrect_, and we think this is the right way to do it"
- zen928 2y ago
  The article attacks the notion of acceptance testing on websites due to a nebulous fear that good != perfect and testing against the moving target of advertisements is too time consuming and potentially misleading, and instead suggests to test+rate adblockers based on a set of hand picked criteria that suits the product they're advertising. Unsurprisingly, half of the reasons are due to the advantages of adblock being first class native in their product vs a second class extension. It sure isn't hard to be #1 in some category if you get to define it, but the comparison is kind of muddled for me when you consider the significant amount of time and effort towards maintaining and monetizing an entire platform of security vs maintaining an extension on an already popular platform. Harm reduction isn't a zero sum game.
- antonok 2y ago
  If you really wanted to know, most of the tests for Brave's adblock engine are at https://github.com/brave/adblock-rust/tree/master/tests https://github.com/brave/adblock-rust/tree/master/tests Those are automated unit and integration tests with controlled filter data as inputs. That's the only practically useful kind of test for an adblocker.
CGamesPlay 2y ago
Isn't a high-quality ad blocker pretty self evident without a dedicated test page? Seems like these sites are directly pushing Goodhart’s Law.
wongarsu 2y ago
I'm a bit baffled that automated ad blocker tests exist in the first place. Historically the main difficulty in writing an ad blocker are the rules. How are you going to accurately test these rules by ... testing if they match your imagined rules. I guess there is always an opportunity to peddle a useless metric. If you actually wanted to do this right the obvious way would be manual review: pick X websites, visit them with each ad blocker, deduct points for visible ads and lost functionality. Repeat for each ad blocker, then rank them by score. That would also give you a nice score whether ad blockers or the advertising industry is currently "winning" the ad war
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Ad blockers are just the embodiment of the internet’s social convention: send whatever bits you want, and I’ll render them however I want. If somebody wants to sent me ads, I prefer not to render them. But they don’t burn my eyeballs out. They are more like a picket fence, than a fortification with barbed wire and all that. If a site is really persistent about circumventing my adblocker, they are basically hostile to me and I should just leave.
  - Wowfunhappy 2y ago
    > If a site is really persistent about circumventing my adblocker, they are basically hostile to me and I should just leave. Since you're not generating any revenue and are costing them bandwidth, the site likely prefers it that way...
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      Yes, I agreed. To be clear I’m not doing the silly thing of threatening to leave a site I’m not going to pay for. I’m describing the result that makes everybody happy.
      - sunshowers 2y ago
        This reminds me of how it's said that threatening to hire a lawyer is meaningless. Actually hiring a lawyer is serious.
tuananh 2y ago
welll, i just use all of them then. to me, those are more real world scenario than the one they link.
mediumsmart 2y ago
adblocker ecosystem everything is a market

71 points by ReadCarlBarks 2y ago

saagarjha 2y ago

Ok, where’s your adblocker test then?

486sx33 2y ago
Right, either release a better quality Adblock tester or stop whining? People need to test somehow.
- dylan604 2y ago
  What do you expect from an advertising blog post? Of course they're going to shit on everyone else while claiming theirs is best in class. Otherwise, what would be the point. Does anyone other than bots/scrapers read these things? This is a classic marketing ploy that's just a twist of "repeat the lie often enough it becomes truth".
outermosthouse 2y ago
They offer some testing sites at the bottom of the article: "Brave will continue to work with legitimate testing sites like https://privacytests.org https://privacytests.org and https://coveryourtracks.eff.org https://coveryourtracks.eff.org"
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Neither of those solve the problem of “is my adblocker on”. Maybe the Brave people should have done some research on why people use these sites rather than making a long blog post explaining why they are bad, actually, while not providing any alternatives for the things people want.
- bitpush 2y ago
  "Will continue to work with" That's like saying bulletproof glass makers working with gun makers. How can you trust either when both are "working together?" This comes across as some sites make Brave look bad, and they are calling them out for whatever reason. -- Also of note - De Beers owns the diamond certification company, which is convinient because why not.
  - dirkragnarok 2y ago
    Are you suggesting that the EFF shouldn't be trusted because Brave works with them to suggest new tests and point out broken ones?
    - bitpush 2y ago
      "broken" you say? I'm curious what Brave would consider to be broken. "Gee, we found one of your tests is _incorrect_, and we think this is the right way to do it"
zen928 2y ago
The article attacks the notion of acceptance testing on websites due to a nebulous fear that good != perfect and testing against the moving target of advertisements is too time consuming and potentially misleading, and instead suggests to test+rate adblockers based on a set of hand picked criteria that suits the product they're advertising. Unsurprisingly, half of the reasons are due to the advantages of adblock being first class native in their product vs a second class extension. It sure isn't hard to be #1 in some category if you get to define it, but the comparison is kind of muddled for me when you consider the significant amount of time and effort towards maintaining and monetizing an entire platform of security vs maintaining an extension on an already popular platform. Harm reduction isn't a zero sum game.
antonok 2y ago
If you really wanted to know, most of the tests for Brave's adblock engine are at https://github.com/brave/adblock-rust/tree/master/tests https://github.com/brave/adblock-rust/tree/master/tests Those are automated unit and integration tests with controlled filter data as inputs. That's the only practically useful kind of test for an adblocker.

CGamesPlay 2y ago

Isn't a high-quality ad blocker pretty self evident without a dedicated test page? Seems like these sites are directly pushing Goodhart’s Law.

wongarsu 2y ago

I'm a bit baffled that automated ad blocker tests exist in the first place. Historically the main difficulty in writing an ad blocker are the rules. How are you going to accurately test these rules by ... testing if they match your imagined rules. I guess there is always an opportunity to peddle a useless metric. If you actually wanted to do this right the obvious way would be manual review: pick X websites, visit them with each ad blocker, deduct points for visible ads and lost functionality. Repeat for each ad blocker, then rank them by score. That would also give you a nice score whether ad blockers or the advertising industry is currently "winning" the ad war

bee_rider 2y ago
Ad blockers are just the embodiment of the internet’s social convention: send whatever bits you want, and I’ll render them however I want. If somebody wants to sent me ads, I prefer not to render them. But they don’t burn my eyeballs out. They are more like a picket fence, than a fortification with barbed wire and all that. If a site is really persistent about circumventing my adblocker, they are basically hostile to me and I should just leave.
- Wowfunhappy 2y ago
  > If a site is really persistent about circumventing my adblocker, they are basically hostile to me and I should just leave. Since you're not generating any revenue and are costing them bandwidth, the site likely prefers it that way...
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Yes, I agreed. To be clear I’m not doing the silly thing of threatening to leave a site I’m not going to pay for. I’m describing the result that makes everybody happy.
    - sunshowers 2y ago
      This reminds me of how it's said that threatening to hire a lawyer is meaningless. Actually hiring a lawyer is serious.

tuananh 2y ago

welll, i just use all of them then. to me, those are more real world scenario than the one they link.

mediumsmart 2y ago

adblocker ecosystem everything is a market