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Bill prohibiting police from lying to children passes Virginia Senate
- exabrial 2y agoStep in the right direction. Get this passed first, then later we can move to a spot where the government is _never allowed to lie_ to its citizens.
- ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago"Never" seems like a bad standard
- g-b-r 2y agoYou'd have to make at most extremely limited exceptions (for example, no, a generic "national security" concern would not be a limited exception). I'm convinced that the benefits of such a norm would far outweigh the downsides.
- ahmeneeroe-v2 2y agoI'm willing to allow much, much more lying than that. Especially for national security concerns.
- mjevans 2y agoWe live an in imperfect world. Some state secrets probably are for public benefit. Government lies should be strongly regulated and see multiple layers of check and oversight. Re-review by new agents should be a frequent event. Lies should be expensive, they should have weight, and they should be only when strictly necessary for the good of the people. As an example, 'fake' terrorists. Those who only rise to that level because someone in the government offered to sell (fake) explosives, etc. I believe that's more harm than good. However I'd also like real terrorists who would eventually figure out how to do bad things to get caught. Review, oversight, lies being expensive.
- Doxin 2y ago> Some state secrets probably are for public benefit. You can have secrets without having lies. Observe: "What is the top speed of an F-16 fighter jet?" "That information is classified." I'm not entirely convinced there's any case where lying is required.
- rincebrain 2y agoThe problem becomes that not everything can be feasibly boiled down to purely true or false accuracy. If you ask me how much is in my bank account, and I tell you it was $50 last time I checked, but I knew a $2000 deposit was coming, did I lie? If you ask me about whether UFOs are real, and I tell you I've never seen one or met someone who credibly has, but I know we have a classified "Earth-Vulcan Treaty Negotiation" committee, did I lie? If you ask me about the existence of programs to assassinate a dozen foreign leaders, and I answer 10 of them don't exist and say the answer to 2 are classified, but I know all 12 don't exist, did I lie? It all goes down a rabbit hole of agency, intent, provability, and expected perception of what you communicated.
- luxuryballs 2y ago[flagged]
- red020 2y ago[flagged]
- striking 2y ago> According to the National Registry of Exonerations, in a study of 268 cases, 34% of minors reported giving a false confession. In a study of nine cases concerning minors under the age of 14, seven reported giving a false confession. In contrast, of the 2,886 adult cases analyzed, only 8% reported giving a false confession.
- throwway120385 2y agoWhy are you assuming that if a cop is talking to a 15-17 year old child that the child is in a gang or has committed a crime? The police talk to lots of people for lots of different reasons and they may interrogate subjects who have not committed any crimes at all for the purpose of gathering information.
- striking 2y ago> A typical example used is when law enforcement tells a child during an interrogation that their friend has already confessed or that they have DNA evidence tying the child to the crime.
- kelseyfrog 2y agoSince we're exploring the space of "things that a cop may lie about," can you imagine scenarios where a cop might lie in a way that people would currently take offense to? Examining opposing scenarios can be a helpful way of weighing pros and cons.
- luxuryballs 2y ago“a way people would take offense to” what does that part mean? I don’t mean to reverse the question on you but what would be an example?
- josefritzishere 2y agoRelevant context. It is not always legal for the police to lie, and they often do anyway. Be aware of your rights. https://www.cato.org/commentary/what-happens-when-police-lie https://www.cato.org/commentary/what-happens-when-police-lie https://www.blasslaw.com/faqs/when-can-the-police-lie-to-you/ https://www.blasslaw.com/faqs/when-can-the-police-lie-to-you...
- autobodie 2y agoBut also remember that you don't have any rights if you're poor, because you won't be able to leverage them and trying could get you in a deeper hole.
- nessbot 2y agoI get what you're tying to say, but this kind of phrasing does more damage by instilling a (mostly) false sense of learned helplessness.
- autobodie 2y agoNo, it instills a reality about so-called "rights". Liberal society is full of lies like this and I'm just pointing them out.
- troad 2y agoAnd if the year were 1850, you'd be writing about the 'reality' of needing to accept slavery. You're not dropping any truth bombs, you're just rationalising cowardice in the face of injustice.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- LordDragonfang 2y ago> The law would "prohibit officers from knowingly and intentionally making false statements about any material fact, including by use of inauthentic replica documents, prior to or during a custodial interrogation of a child to secure the cooperation, confession or conviction of such child." This is specifically about lying to children to manipulate them into giving testimony/confession.
- hnlmorg 2y agoI don't understand why it's specific to children. Surely lying under any circumstances should be prohibited. Plus it's not like children are the only vulnerable group. Still, at least this is a step in the right direction. So we should be thankful for that.
- khazhoux 2y ago> Surely lying under any circumstances should be prohibited You must admit that it's a tricky issue, differentiating between a cop purposely lying vs making an incorrect assertion. Should a defendant walk if it they can prove at trial that the cop said something that wasn't true? That said, it's sad how often people incriminate themselves with drug possession because of the "gentle" lie that things will be a lot worse for them if the cop is the one to find the drugs.
- LordDragonfang 2y agoThis isn't about white lies. This is about purposeful, blatantly false things to manipulate witnesses/suspects into giving confessions. Often false confessions - the article lists as one of the law's justifications that in the cases they looked at, 34% of minors reported giving a false confession (50% for under 14), but the adult rate is 8%, which is still appallingly high - if any other profession had a "vital tool" that ruins incorrectly someone's life 1 in 12 times, there would be major outcry and regulation.
- vineyardmike 2y ago> Should a defendant walk if it they can prove at trial that the cop said something that wasn't true? Should a defendant be found guilty if they were lied to by the cops? Explicit lied that are used to extract and manipulate confessions. Remember, people are innocent until proven guilty. We don’t presume someone on trial is guilty. If they weren’t properly prosecuted, we shouldn’t assume the guilt is proper either.
- hiatus 2y agoStill needs to be signed by the governor. Given the voting along partisan lines I don't expect it to pass.
- potato3732842 2y agoI think it's a matter of which politicians are owned by which interests and pandering to said interests more than political lines. Once you get past the insane screeching reforming the police is popular with the general public on both sides of the isle.
- deweywsu 2y agoHow about expanding the law such that the police can't lie to ANYONE?
- op00to 2y agowhy?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- leptons 2y agoWhy not?
- op00to 2y agoIf I were at risk of being murdered, and only a cop lying could stop it, I'd want the cop to lie. Even to kids! Let's say you’re being held hostage by a dangerous armed criminal who has already harmed others and is threatening to kill you. The police arrive, and the criminal demands to know if there are snipers positioned outside. If the cop truthfully says “Yes,” the criminal might panic and shoot you immediately. Instead, the cop lies and says, “No, it’s just us talking, let’s work this out,” buying time for a sniper to take the criminal down and save your life.
- jrs235 2y agoI'm sure we can make a framework around when they can lie. They can not lie to obtain facts or information while investigating. Doing so should poison what they gain and anything found afterwards.
- croes 2y agoWhy? There are lies that don‘t poison anything. For instance police lies in an online chat to be a 12 year old girl to catch a child predator.
- qingcharles 2y agoWe've had this for a while in Illinois: 705 ILCS 405/5-401.6, "Prohibition of deceptive tactics." https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=070504050K5-401.6 https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=0...
- hermannj314 2y agoThe crazy thing that I think about is that if we were debating the 4th amendment today, it wouldn't pass. It wouldn't even come close to passing, we would be arguing how warrantless searches are necessary to keep terrorists away. An agent of the government can lie to your face, create fake documents to support that lie, and threaten you with prison to confess under the duress caused by this lie and we think this maybe shouldn't be ok, barely, but only for kids. This is an insane world we live in that this is debated topic.
- dmix 2y agothis is a fun read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Big_(police_procedure) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Big_(police_procedure) > The use of this technique is essentially prohibited in some countries, including the United Kingdom[4] and the United States.[5] In Germany, which has high standards for what constitutes a voluntary confession, it may be more difficult to use confessions obtained by this technique.[5] The procedure has been used by police in Australia[6] and New Zealand,[7] and its use has been upheld by courts in both countries.
- reverendsteveii 2y agoSince we're doing the van halen "right now your government is doing things you think only happen in other countries" thing, here's one about a 15 year old who was so mentally disabled "“He was unable to even tie his shoelaces and his mother would have to do it for him", but that didn't stop him from being groomed by FBI agents to say things that count as conspiracy to commit terrorism. They recorded everything that he said without regard to the fact that he had “the mentality of a 6-year-old”, then waited until he turned 18 to arrest him so they could charge him as an adult and put him away for life. https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/18-year-old-arrested-on-terrorism-charges-is-mentally-like-a-child/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/18-year-old-arrested-on-...
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- dec0dedab0de 2y agoif the cops cant question kids at all, then what would they do if a group of kids are acting suspicious?
- krapp 2y agoNothing. "Acting suspicious" isn't a crime, it's a pretext. Usually to shooting some unarmed black kid in the head.
- ARandomerDude 2y ago"Acting suspicious" is a grammar crime.
- bryanrasmussen 2y agoThey were acting as if they were suspicious of me! Why would anyone be suspicious of the police!? I had to shoot them!
- efa 2y agoI guess no more Operation Flagship (well maybe since this is just lying to kids). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flagship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flagship
- openasocket 2y agoThis bill is focused on handling juvenile suspects, but there's a lot of work that needs to be done to improve things for juvenile witnesses and victims. In too many jurisdictions in the US, if a young child is believed to be a witness or victim of a crime, they are treated the same way as adults. Sometimes this means little children are placed in interrogation rooms with detectives. This can be traumatic to children, and can often lead to inaccurate information. Anyone who's tried to get information from a 5 year old can attest to how difficult that can be, even about mundane subjects. The gold standard is to use child advocacy centers (CACs). Children suspected to be witnesses or victims to a crime are taken to a facility specifically for child interviews (i.e. not an interrogation room in a police station) and the interview is conducted by a trained forensic psychologist. These psychologists are specifically trained to work with children, and ask questions in a way that isn't leading and is likely to get accurate information. There is a ton of scientific literature and known protocols in this field.
- Vortigaunt 2y agoEvery time I see this pop up it reminds me of this part of an epsiode of This American Life [0]. At parts its quite difficult to listen to, however it seems like an important thing to be aware of. If they're willing to do this to children, what are they fine with doing to adults? It's beyond words how someone can imagine that this is moral behavior in the pursuit of justice. I don't see how anyone can harass a child like that - already distraught by the death of his sister - and to treat some kid like a murderer for hours on end. [0] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/210/perfect-evidence/act-two-2 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/210/perfect-evidence/act-tw...
- matt3210 2y agoPolice shouldn’t be allowed to lie in general
- patrick451 2y agoLet's forbid the police from lying to everybody.