5 ms·

We could fix it all with a single law: All federally funded research papers must be published with full open access. The issue is the models can mostly only a

We could fix it all with a single law: All federally funded research papers must be published with full open access. The issue is the models can mostly only access abstracts (same as the majority of humans!) and thus we are back to the dark ages where knowledge is hoarded by the aristocrats in their ivory towers of academia.

mrtesthah 2y ago
>We could fix it all with a single law: All federally funded research papers must be published with full open access. Two things wrong with this sentence: 1. All federal funding for research is in jeopardy. https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/trumps-nih-budget-cuts-threaten-research-stirring-panic-rcna191744 https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/trumps-nih-budg... 2. The executive branch now considers itself superior to the legislative and judicial branches, so actions of the legislative branch (i.e., laws) might as well be moot. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/vance-and-musk-attack-judicial-authority-as-trumps-agenda-gets-pushback-from-courts https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/vance-and-musk-attack-...
- dlahoda 2y ago
  1. tax funded researchers did not publish non pay walled. right? 2. as per link text, there was denial to access treasure dep records. so what is secrecy in there? so let just append '... and data' to the root of thread
  - mrtesthah 2y ago
    It’s not about access to data—it’s about removing Congress’ control of the federal government. That control is maintained via laws and courts. Today the president just formally assumed power over those other two branches of government, so law is effectively meaningless now. https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1isvzgu/the_full_executive_order_is_out_this_is_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1isvzgu/the_full_execu... Whose side will you be on—-the side of billionaires and the christian nationalist heritage foundation, or the rest of the people of the united states? Choose wisely.
bruce511 2y ago
Right now, today, nothing stops academia from publishing every paper they write to be open to all. The internet is there and publishing is free. The fact that they don't implies that they perceive some value is provided by publishing in the traditional way. Assuming that journals die as a result of your law (why would people pay for a journal anymore?) is it worth considering that value (perceived or real) before advocating it is gone? For example, consider a news article which starts with "a study published in Nature shows that..." versus "a study posted on Joe's blog on the internet indicates..." For better or worse (and often with mistakes) journals act as a filter. Researchers in a field can "keep up". They can spend their time on "good papers" rather than trying to sift the dross of the internet. Researchers, and by extension the place they work, gain karma points when publishing in hard-to-publish papers. If other papers cite their work they get even more points. Ultimately academia (employers and peers) ranks people using these points. Does this mean your idea is bad? Not necessarily. But it's worth understanding that your proposal would "fix" one problem, but introduce a bunch of new ones. Another (equally flawed) approach to solving the problem is that the govt simply pays for journal subscriptions to anyone who asks. This means "open access", with benefits limited to "their" population. But the values offered by journals are preserved. Of course this incentivizes journals to increase fees.
- visarga 2y ago
  > they perceive some value is provided by publishing in the traditional way Yes, but it provides value only for scientist careers, not for science.
  - tehjoker 2y ago
    well it also gives some indication of what to read too, hard to filter a firehose on top of your dayjob, but it’s hard to believe that it needs to be this expensive
  - bruce511 2y ago
    >> Yes, but it provides value only for scientist careers, not for science. That's a very definitive statement. But perhaps it is untrue? It would seem yes, that it's good for scientist careers.Are "good" careers versus "bad" careers good or bad for science? In other words, is it useful to rank scientists when allocating grant money? Do good scientists make better use of the money than bad ones? Are there other ways you could suggest to rank scientists? Perhaps there are other groups that benefit as well? What about people issuing grants? Is it useful to them that there is industry recognised feedback regarding the scientist and her work? Is this useful when allocating limited funds to an unlimited demand? What about people following the science? Let's take industry. Say I want to make a commercial product. Should I start by paying attention to the field, understanding the science? Or is it ok to just read any unvetted thing? What about media, and by extension the population? Can a media outlet run a story based on "something someone wrote on the internet"? Or should they prefer credible sources? Should the public have some interest in the truthiness of something? Should the public (via the media) understand the difference between a result published in the New England Journal of Medicine, or what my homeopath down the road published on their blog? What about say doctors keeping up with "current ideas"? Should they believe everything, every "study" posted on a blog? Or should there be a system of gate-keeping, sifting the valuable studies from the chaff? Presumably knowing that a study is well formed, and not paid for by say big pharma, might lend it more weight? Of course publishers benefit (financially) from this system as well. But they don't matter right? So we'll ignore that. But even if you remove them from the equation, I'd suggest that "science" does indeed get value from the system, beyond just scientist careers. Now, could all these benefits be gained in an alternative way to expensive journals? Almost certainly so. But in order to build such a system it's important to understand the strengths of the current one. A "simple" law might solve one part of the puzzle, but at the same time have very foreseeable consequences in other parts of the picture.
Ericson2314 2y ago
At the rate things are going, I also hope we continue to have "federally funded research" at all...

mrtesthah 2y ago

>We could fix it all with a single law: All federally funded research papers must be published with full open access. Two things wrong with this sentence: 1. All federal funding for research is in jeopardy. https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/trumps-nih-budget-cuts-threaten-research-stirring-panic-rcna191744 https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/trumps-nih-budg... 2. The executive branch now considers itself superior to the legislative and judicial branches, so actions of the legislative branch (i.e., laws) might as well be moot. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/vance-and-musk-attack-judicial-authority-as-trumps-agenda-gets-pushback-from-courts https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/vance-and-musk-attack-...

dlahoda 2y ago
1. tax funded researchers did not publish non pay walled. right? 2. as per link text, there was denial to access treasure dep records. so what is secrecy in there? so let just append '... and data' to the root of thread
- mrtesthah 2y ago
  It’s not about access to data—it’s about removing Congress’ control of the federal government. That control is maintained via laws and courts. Today the president just formally assumed power over those other two branches of government, so law is effectively meaningless now. https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1isvzgu/the_full_executive_order_is_out_this_is_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1isvzgu/the_full_execu... Whose side will you be on—-the side of billionaires and the christian nationalist heritage foundation, or the rest of the people of the united states? Choose wisely.

bruce511 2y ago

Right now, today, nothing stops academia from publishing every paper they write to be open to all. The internet is there and publishing is free. The fact that they don't implies that they perceive some value is provided by publishing in the traditional way. Assuming that journals die as a result of your law (why would people pay for a journal anymore?) is it worth considering that value (perceived or real) before advocating it is gone? For example, consider a news article which starts with "a study published in Nature shows that..." versus "a study posted on Joe's blog on the internet indicates..." For better or worse (and often with mistakes) journals act as a filter. Researchers in a field can "keep up". They can spend their time on "good papers" rather than trying to sift the dross of the internet. Researchers, and by extension the place they work, gain karma points when publishing in hard-to-publish papers. If other papers cite their work they get even more points. Ultimately academia (employers and peers) ranks people using these points. Does this mean your idea is bad? Not necessarily. But it's worth understanding that your proposal would "fix" one problem, but introduce a bunch of new ones. Another (equally flawed) approach to solving the problem is that the govt simply pays for journal subscriptions to anyone who asks. This means "open access", with benefits limited to "their" population. But the values offered by journals are preserved. Of course this incentivizes journals to increase fees.

visarga 2y ago
> they perceive some value is provided by publishing in the traditional way Yes, but it provides value only for scientist careers, not for science.
- tehjoker 2y ago
  well it also gives some indication of what to read too, hard to filter a firehose on top of your dayjob, but it’s hard to believe that it needs to be this expensive
- bruce511 2y ago
  >> Yes, but it provides value only for scientist careers, not for science. That's a very definitive statement. But perhaps it is untrue? It would seem yes, that it's good for scientist careers.Are "good" careers versus "bad" careers good or bad for science? In other words, is it useful to rank scientists when allocating grant money? Do good scientists make better use of the money than bad ones? Are there other ways you could suggest to rank scientists? Perhaps there are other groups that benefit as well? What about people issuing grants? Is it useful to them that there is industry recognised feedback regarding the scientist and her work? Is this useful when allocating limited funds to an unlimited demand? What about people following the science? Let's take industry. Say I want to make a commercial product. Should I start by paying attention to the field, understanding the science? Or is it ok to just read any unvetted thing? What about media, and by extension the population? Can a media outlet run a story based on "something someone wrote on the internet"? Or should they prefer credible sources? Should the public have some interest in the truthiness of something? Should the public (via the media) understand the difference between a result published in the New England Journal of Medicine, or what my homeopath down the road published on their blog? What about say doctors keeping up with "current ideas"? Should they believe everything, every "study" posted on a blog? Or should there be a system of gate-keeping, sifting the valuable studies from the chaff? Presumably knowing that a study is well formed, and not paid for by say big pharma, might lend it more weight? Of course publishers benefit (financially) from this system as well. But they don't matter right? So we'll ignore that. But even if you remove them from the equation, I'd suggest that "science" does indeed get value from the system, beyond just scientist careers. Now, could all these benefits be gained in an alternative way to expensive journals? Almost certainly so. But in order to build such a system it's important to understand the strengths of the current one. A "simple" law might solve one part of the puzzle, but at the same time have very foreseeable consequences in other parts of the picture.

Ericson2314 2y ago

At the rate things are going, I also hope we continue to have "federally funded research" at all...